[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

[darksellsword]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

All this talk of evil Bran because revealing R+L=J only served to drive a wedge between Dany and Jon is a bit silly and very naive IMO. Bran was turned into an infodump robot, that’s all. That’s not the character’s fault, but the Ds’. David and Dan simply had to reveal it, that’s basically what got them the job. There’s no way they could have ignored it. So they did what they do “best”: presented the reveal 3 times, one worse than the other, and then proceeded to happily chuck it along all the threads and plots that they had no interest in or didn’t have a fucking clue how to handle. 

There is no hidden agenda, nothing is nothing, and David and Dan suck dragon’s balls as writers. The end.

I think the R+L= J reveal is just one thread in the argument that Bran could've altered the outcome in a way less beneficial to him but that would serve the greater good. I think you can make a compelling argument against Bran based on the shows narrative of course.

[Consigliere]

23 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I liked how Drogon broke the fourth wall though, I think the iron from the from melting away symbolized the different plotlines melting before the viewers eyes and turning into an unidentifable mess. Seems like everybody is a critic these days, even CGI dragons.

Nah man, you're not giving Drogon the proper credit he deserves. This is the real reason  why he torched the throne.

[Therae]

Most of the dialogue was so meta that I kept hearing Jeremy from CinemaSins saying, "Jon (wondering that there was still a Night's Watch) would be excellent at TV Sins...the Great Council (laughing off suddenly-stupid Sam's proposed democracy) would be excellent at TV Sins..." and so on. And Tyrion pointing out that we cheered Dany on for all the horrible things she did to horrible people as if it weren't written that way and accompanied by triumphant music...

As if it wasn't bad enough that they turned Edmure into utter nebbish back in the bits of the story where he was relevant in any way, they dust him off and drag him out to make himself ridiculous just to give Sansa the opportunity to get one last snark before wrapping.

Yara remains so devoted to Dany as to call for Jon's head for no reason other than to give Arya the opportunity to get one last threat in before wrapping.

Jon, who walked around absolutely horrified by what Dany did for an episode and a half is STILL LOYAL TO HIS QUEEN AND NEEDS TO BE TALKED INTO BETRAYING HER (and even then "you'll always be my queen"). I am convinced that for whatever reason, d&d just really, really hated Jon's character (much like they loved Sansa's), and went out of their way, really every opportunity they had throughout the show, but especially once they ran out of books to make him unjustifiably stupid and ineffective.

In what world, this one included, does a guy with a demonstrable claim on the throne (never mind the best claim) kill the sitting monarch (who happens to be a batshit insane tyrant with the idea that killing everyone = liberty) get taken prisoner and eventually exiled to placate the foreign army of the former tyrant?

WTF happened at the end for Jon? Because it looked like he resumed his Lord Commandership (since that hairy cloak somehow became the symbol of the LC around season 6, I guess in the absence of Mormont's raven) and went north with the Free Folk. Which is it?

Also, even though Jon himself did ask (and everyone else here), why is there still a NW? What kind of answer is "there will always be a place for bastards and broken things"? What on earth is the point of their vows now?

And...Sam is wearing his NW uni at the Great Council...but he's there representing Horn Hill? And then becomes Grand Maester? Just...what? If the NW is still a thing, he should still be in it. And whether it's NW or GM, no Horn Hill and no wife and children, which I guess explains why they didn't really explain that?

And the utter hair on naming that book ASOIAF...

They build tension by basically sandbagging on behalf of the side that is going to totally dominate everything the next episode. They create suspense by giving no indication whatsoever of what is actually going to happen. They "foreshadow" by either making a character tell us exactly what's coming in an entirely different context, or dropping in a couple non sequiturs apropos of nothing. Based on their horrible Inside the Episodes* and commentaries throughout the course of the show, it's evident their interpretations of the hearts of all the main characters aren't based either on the novels or even the show they've been running all this time.

And if the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives, why go through all that just to break up the band forever?

So much ugh.

* @kissdbyfire - I think maybe they didn't bother, because there's nothing left for them to misdirect us about.

[massoir]

Just trawling through the threads and noticed the “praise without repercussions’ thread is only 2 pages meanwhile over here.....

 

looks like even the unsullied are fed up with this poor adaptation by d&d

[Rose of Red Lake]

I feel like they were trying to say "hey, what if Jon is Jaime, but he had to kill his lover instead!" Okay, only problem is, they expect me to believe that Jon/Dany share a BOND AS DEEP as Jaime/Cersei? Give me a fucking break. It feels like they just met 2 months ago (in the books it will also be compressed). In addition, Jon would judge Dany in the books so hard. 

[Jaime the Goldenhand]

1 minute ago, massoir said:

Just trawling through the threads and noticed the “praise without repercussions’ thread is only 2 pages meanwhile over here.....

 

looks like even the unsullied are fed up with this poor adaptation by d&d

Haha, yeah I read that. Half the comments are about Jon petting Ghost! Major win. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

I think the R+L= J reveal is just one thread in the argument that Bran could've altered the outcome in a way less beneficial to him but that would serve the greater good. I think you can make a compelling argument against Bran based on the shows narrative of course.

The point remains. There’s nothing there, no deeper meaning, no hidden agenda, nothing. It’s a poor conclusion to a very poorly told story that was botched and butchered by two talentless hacks. 

[Jaime the Goldenhand]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I feel like they were trying to say "hey, what if Jon is Jaime, but he had to kill his lover instead!" Okay, only pro lem is, they expect me to believe that Jon/Dany share a BOND AS DEEP as Jaime/Cersei? Give me a fucking break. It feels like they just met 2 months ago (in the books it will also be compressed). In addition, Jon would judge Dany in the books so hard. 

Agree. Jon and Dany's love is so sudden and forced, when they aren't appearing on screen together, I barely remember that they are supposed to be a couple. They had a couple good fucks on a boat. Oh, and dragon riding date. They barely have any reason to even like each other, let alone want to die for one another. 

[Moondancer]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wasn’t it something along the lines of, “if a 12 yr Old has to conquer/rule, so be it”? Iirc, he said that when talking about ditching the 5 yr gap.

Oh, that sounds so much better.   I am relieved to know I haven't made this up in my efforts to make sense of... anything. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Moondancer said:

Oh, that sounds so much better.   I am relieved to know I haven't made this up in my efforts to make sense of... anything. 

Here it is:

Q: 5-year gap?

A: It worked for characters like Arya and Dany but not so much for the adults or those who had a lot of action coming. He was writing chapters where Jon thought, "Well, not a lot has happened these past five years, it's been kinda nice." And Cersei chapters where she thought, "Well, I've had to kill sooo many people the last five years." So he ended up dropping it. He said he would have done it sooner if he hadn't told so many fans about it. And there is no gap anymore. "If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."

[alienarea]

Bran as a chosen ruler of Westeros is a bad ending. He may be able to watch all of the past, but he does not know life. All the information is worthless if you do not know how to interpret it. Bloodraven (the previous 3ER) had lived a life, loved, fought, killed, ... , before going into the tree. Bran climbed the walls of Winterfell. This is like having us governed by artificial intelligence in real life, and I do not agree with this message.

The possibility of Bran being able to see the future is even more problematic. Either, there is only one future, then everything has already been decided and we are parts of a simulation, or, as the little green man from the other franchise put it: "Hard to see the future, always in motion it is."  This implies there is more than one possible future based on the decisions we have taken, are taking and will take. How will a boy without any experience in live be able to interpret this and take decisions?

Jon Snow getting away with murder? Of course, there is the old discussion whether murdering a tyrant is justified or even necessary.

But not after one day of tyranny.

Tyrion, from out of prison, suggesting who should be king?

Keeping in mind the other questionable ingredients like incest, assumed cannibalism, assumed bestiality, ... , to name a few, it has been written for shock value, or, simplified, tits and dragons.

It will not stand the test of time.

[Ser Lepus]

What I want to know is, if Sansa "wanted to free Jon" (liar, liar, pants on fire! she wants to get rid of Jon and to become queen!) why does she take upon herself to decide the fate of the North? Jon is the f*cking KING OF THE NORTH, and if he were to be released, he would be the one to choose to either bend the knee to Bran or to declare independence!

And anyways, why is Bran chosen king of the Six Kingdoms, if the North declares independence? Without the North, he has no backing, no vassals, no support!

When Sansa declared independence during the election, she was undermining Bran! I still can't understand how he was crowned after that!

Bran should have told Sansa: "Don't be in such a hurry to bury our brother Jon Stark, KING OF THE NORTH, dear sister..."

[ramla]

35 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

How many times did he tell her he didn't want the throne, though? She's like an insecure teenager who lives in their imaginary angst. If you don't have anything to worry about, invent something. 

He tried to reassure her over and over again. She chose to not trust him, and without that trust you don't have much of a relationship or future together. Had she only done that, the outcome might have been different. It was all up to her, and she chose poorly. 

Edit: Jon wasn't the heir to the throne the second Dany legitimized Gendry. Gendry was. Dany never had a claim to the throne at all. 

She may have found other things to force her over the edge indeed. However. Jon wasn't her main concern. It was sansa and people using Jon to take the throne. Which actually happens. So her concern was warranted. According to the show that is. There's no excuse for what Dany did, but it can be argued that without Bran's guidance much of this stuff wouldn't have happened.  And I don't think Jons reassurance meant much because she knew what was going to happen... And it did happen. So much for his reassurance (he should have known better and has been written to be terribly dumb and naive for like 3 seasons now).

The whole Gendry thing I chalk up to D&D just not realizing what they were writing in LOL

[Lady Fevre Dream]

52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Dany's reaction came over as a sort of emotional numbness induced by the shock caused to her by Viserys' threat to cut out her baby from her womb. That is such a horrible thing to do. It had absolutely nothing to do with her later actions.

Basically, Viserys was threatening to not only cut the baby out of her womb, but it was a threat to kill Dany, too.  I don't think Viserys was versed in any kind of 'medical' procedures, much less being able to perform a caesarean section.  One thing to hear nothing about it this Viserys business. 

[ramla]

33 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

Because he tells the best stories, obviously.

I mean, he never told stories even before he became branbot the 3ER or whatever.  Sure, he can sit by a tree and play dead bait, but he sure can't tell stories between pointing out super uncomfortable things like how beautiful his sister looked while she was being raped or how people have made inappropriate comments when they think no one's watching.

i didn't understand how bran told these amazing stories when we never heard them. lol

[darksellsword]

If Westeros were in any way like our world as things ended it wouldn't be long before Gendry or one of his heirs decided they are the ones to rule Westeros. Robert may have been incompetent as a king but he reigned over a peaceful kingdom for nearly 20 years, medieval people are ones to follow tradition and superstition. The first time the council make a controversial decision people would be plotting against them, look at what happened to Daenerys. She didn't enjoy the party at Winterfell and planned to take kingslanding so everyone started saying she was crazy.  I don't know why I'm even discussing these things at this point it is a bit like tryin to find meaning in a toddlers crayon drawings.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, ramla said:

She may have found other things to force her over the edge indeed. However. Jon wasn't her main concern. It was sansa and people using Jon to take the throne. Which actually happens. So her concern was warranted. According to the show that is. There's no excuse for what Dany did, but it can be argued that without Bran's guidance much of this stuff wouldn't have happened.  And I don't think Jons reassurance meant much because she knew what was going to happen... And it did happen. So much for his reassurance (he should have known better and has been written to be terribly dumb and naive for like 3 seasons now).

The whole Gendry thing I chalk up to D&D just not realizing what they were writing in LOL

You aren't paranoid if they're out to get you.  At every turn, Daenerys was given terrible advice, by people who were either incompetent, or actively working against her. And then, she found the Starks were trying to bring her down as well, despite fighting the army of the dead.  And then after that, she discovered that Varys was a traitor, but for some reason, she was to blame for his treason. 

[ramla]

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

All this talk of evil Bran because revealing R+L=J only served to drive a wedge between Dany and Jon is a bit silly and very naive IMO. Bran was turned into an infodump robot, that’s all. That’s not the character’s fault, but the Ds’. David and Dan simply had to reveal it, that’s basically what got them the job. There’s no way they could have ignored it. So they did what they do “best”: presented the reveal 3 times, each worse than the next, and then proceeded to happily chuck it along all the threads and plots that they had no interest in or didn’t have a fucking clue how to handle. 

There is no hidden agenda, nothing is nothing, and David and Dan suck dragon’s balls as writers. The end.

I agree on what you said about D&D, however, I said thats what i gleened from the show. However silly the writing may have been. Or the idea. Bran keeps alluding to his ability to see everything. So all that happens after Jon learns his parentage, Bran can be assumed to already know. he even tells Jon he was were he was supposed to be.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wasn’t it something along the lines of, “if a 12 yr Old has to conquer/rule, so be it”? Iirc, he said that when talking about ditching the 5 yr gap.

I thought the phrasing was more like:  If a 12 year old has to save the world, so be it? 

LOL Has anyone tried google yet on that one?  Not me, not yet. 

[Dragons Are Real]

10 minutes ago, ramla said:

i didn't understand how bran told these amazing stories when we never heard them. lol

Like everything else important over the last three to four seasons, it happened off-screen.  Bran's nightly story time where he gathers the children and elderly around him and recounts all the ancient histories in glorious detail was always happening off screen.