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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition


Ran

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18 minutes ago, Einheri said:

I think he probably told them about this during one of the meetings they had about 4-5 (?) years ago, when it became clear that the show would overtake the books. But even if we assume that he could have given it away earlier than that, it seems unlikely that D&D wouldn’t have asked him to reaffirm such an important plot point at a later date (i.e. “you’re still certain about King Bran?”).

This is what I’m not so sure about. After S4 (which I believe is the last season Martin actively participated in) were D&D still consulting with Martin on the story or did their egos and hubris make them believe that they could do it better? And even if they did reach out to Martin, how much of the story did he subsequently confirm? I’m hoping we get a better sense on how Bran’s arc will progress in the next book. 

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6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The books are already 'spoiled' and anyone who thinks that the show, which always disliked Bran's story since he left WF, so much so that they had him sit out an entire season, and has always done a terrible job with his transformation, would have made Bran king if it wasn't something they got from George is fooling themselves. 

 

But the big problem is that grrm changes his ideas while writting a lot. We just have to look at those notes about how he thought the story would go and see how much things changed. Even if at some point in time he thought bran would be king he has made so many changes to his planned story that at the moment it seems really far fetched.

Unless bran becomes kitn in winds and therefore changes a lot of the story we saw in the show 2 books will never be enough to sell bran as king. And I have no idea why ther northmen would chose bran as their king when they must prepare for the biggest fight of their lives and bran is a cripple kid that knows nothing of war strategies...

Honestly, with dance and feast grrm has invested a lot in teaching some characters how to rule and showing us the details of how they rule. Given that it seems like we will continue with danny, jon, cersei and euron ruling in winds with faegon and sansa having their moments I don t understand how the final people in power can be anyone else than these guys… Anyone else would feel a cheap trick for martin's style...

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Just now, divica said:

But the big problem is that grrm changes his ideas while writting a lot. We just have to look at those notes about how he thought the story would go and see how much things changed. Even if at some point in time he thought bran would be king he has made so many changes to his planned story that at the moment it seems really far fetched.

Unless bran becomes kitn in winds and therefore changes a lot of the story we saw in the show 2 books will never be enough to sell bran as king. And I have no idea why ther northmen would chose bran as their king when they must prepare for the biggest fight of their lives and bran is a cripple kid that knows nothing of war strategies...

Honestly, with dance and feast grrm has invested a lot in teaching some characters how to rule and showing us the details of how they rule. Given that it seems like we will continue with danny, jon, cersei and euron ruling in winds with faegon and sansa having their moments I don t understand how the final people in power can be anyone else than these guys… Anyone else would feel a cheap trick for martin's style...

I agree it will take more than 2 books, because for it to make any sense at all Bran has to be at least a teenager.  He can't be a 12 year old king that would be asinine.  But, this is also probably why George has stalled again, without the 'gap' he's writing and writing but the story isn't going anywhere it needs to go. 

George has also said, many times, that he has known the 'end' for the main characters since the 90s.  

For Bran to become king, we will need to see House Tyrell and other major houses extinguished and we will need to see the Others get close to King's Landing so the rest of Westeros will know for a fact that this isn't a fairy tale from old Nan, and Bran will obviously have to play more of a role than sitting in the garden like he did in the show.

And it may not come off, a lot of fantasy novels are great and then the ending is lame or they otherwise go off the rails at the end.  Even accounting for the show's stupidity, this end is fairly unsatisfying.

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41 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The books are already 'spoiled' and anyone who thinks that the show, which always disliked Bran's story since he left WF, so much so that they had him sit out an entire season, and has always done a terrible job with his transformation, would have made Bran king if it wasn't something they got from George is fooling themselves. 

 

The show has as much contempt for book!Sansa...

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1 minute ago, 7th-key said:

The show has as much contempt for book!Sansa...

I don't think it's contempt, but the showrunners seem to have a very flat and static idea of 'strong women' that equates to them being a badass type who snarks and snipes, which to me is what they tried to turn Sansa into, all of that out of place and out of character rudeness was their way of making her as much of a badass as they could, same with having her set the dogs on Ramsay, that was an I spit on your grave badass moment to them.  Boss.Ass.Individual.  Most of the women in the show ended up flattened into a similar mode.  The only reason that Cat was a strong woman who wasn't a Boss.Ass.Individual. is that she died before they ran out of Martin's material, it's the same reason that Brienne was a decent character because we saw her as initially envisioned by Martin in the early seasons so her later rudeness was overlooked.  

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I caught up with a buddy that was on vacation during the finale yesterday and he said the funniest thing to me.  Quoting because I couldn't reword it and make it any funnier.

Quote

It's like I thought I lowered the bar all the way to the ground by the end of last season and somehow they kept tripping over it episode after episode.  So, for the finale, I buried the fuckin' thing under six inches of dirt and they came along with a  backhoe and dug out around it so they could give themselves a concussion running into it.

Pretty well sums up most of our feelings here, I think.

As for the debate about Bran being king?  Anybody ever read God Emperor of Dune?  Some people hated the premise, but it always stuck with me.  I think Westeros may end up with God Emperor Bran for a thousand years.  Wonder who he'll keep reanimating so he'll have someone around to check reality for him, and eventually kill him?

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2 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

I caught up with a buddy that was on vacation during the finale yesterday and he said the funniest thing to me.  Quoting because I couldn't reword it and make it any funnier.

Pretty well sums up most of our feelings here, I think.

As for the debate about Bran being king?  Anybody ever read God Emperor of Dune?  Some people hated the premise, but it always stuck with me.  I think Westeros may end up with God Emperor Bran for a thousand years.  Wonder who he'll keep reanimating so he'll have someone around to check reality for him, and eventually kill him?

I loved Dune, but it also went off the rails a bit toward the end, and Martin must be aware of the parallels with Bran, so I assume/hope he has some details that will make that work outside of Bran being God Emperor of Westeros, although I don't know what they would be, but maybe if disconnects from the weirwood tree he would keep his powers of greenseeing but would lose the ability to live more than a single lifetime?  

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4 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Maybe D&D misheard when George was actually telling them about King BRON… :ack:

Are you kidding?  Had he said that they would have wet themselves with excitement.  Whores in every village!  Live in whores in the castle!  Whore parades in the city streets!  The possibilities for female nudity would be limitless!

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5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think it's contempt, but the showrunners seem to have a very flat and static idea of 'strong women' that equates to them being a badass type who snarks and snipes, which to me is what they tried to turn Sansa into, all of that out of place and out of character rudeness was their way of making her as much of a badass as they could, same with having her set the dogs on Ramsay, that was an I spit on your grave badass moment to them.  Boss.Ass.Individual.  Most of the women in the show ended up flattened into a similar mode.  The only reason that Cat was a strong woman who wasn't a Boss.Ass.Individual. is that she died before they ran out of Martin's material, it's the same reason that Brienne was a decent character because we saw her as initially envisioned by Martin in the early seasons so her later rudeness was overlooked.  

Exactly. I like the point this reviewer makes, that the show seems unable to understand that being a bad ass is not the only way to show strenght and intelligence:

 

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39 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

As for the debate about Bran being king?  Anybody ever read God Emperor of Dune?  Some people hated the premise, but it always stuck with me.  I think Westeros may end up with God Emperor Bran for a thousand years.  Wonder who he'll keep reanimating so he'll have someone around to check reality for him, and eventually kill him?

Elio and Linda brought this up in their Endgame video. They don’t think Martin will take this route as it would be too close to Dune, but at this point who knows. I do however think that D&D may have ripped off Herbert’s theme. The whole Bran is the memory thing sounds too similar to be a coincidence.

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

The books are already 'spoiled' and anyone who thinks that the show, which always disliked Bran's story since he left WF, so much so that they had him sit out an entire season, and has always done a terrible job with his transformation, would have made Bran king if it wasn't something they got from George is fooling themselves. 

 

There is PLENTY of room for maneuver here. There's no need to assume Bran ends up king of the Six Kingdoms.

He could just as easily (or indeed more convincingly) be:

King of Winterfell/the North

King Beyond the Wall (still stuck in his tree) lording it over the CotF

The Night's King

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19 minutes ago, teej6 said:
55 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

As for the debate about Bran being king?  Anybody ever read God Emperor of Dune?  Some people hated the premise, but it always stuck with me.  I think Westeros may end up with God Emperor Bran for a thousand years.  Wonder who he'll keep reanimating so he'll have someone around to check reality for him, and eventually kill him?

Elio and Linda brought this up in their Endgame video. They don’t think Martin will take this route as it would be too close to Dune, but at this point who knows. I do however think that D&D may have ripped off Herbert’s theme. The whole Bran is the memory thing sounds too similar to be a coincidence.

I hope for the D&D ripp-off.

Frankly, Leto II Atreides is by far my favourite character from Dune, and I just don't see how GRRM could pull a God-Emperor for Bran without it looking stretched and cheesy (at best), because it takes Leto more then just his superpowers (which Bran doesn't have either) to actually become Emperor in the first place: First he does have a claim, and second with the planet Dune (Spice) and a lot of loyal followers quite a power base. Bran doesn't have neither (the North ist the least populated region of the Seven Kingdoms), so the other regions would not simply follow a kitn on the Iron Throne, why should they? - As far as we know at this moment, the knowledge and power lies in the trees, there are no Weirdwoods left in the South, so even with some strange and suddenly appearing "mullumullu" makes it no longer required for Bran to be linked to a tree, the Reech, Dorne, Stormlands and the Crownlands would say: "F*** yourself!"

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3 minutes ago, Morte said:

I hope for the D&D ripp-off.

Frankly, Leto II Atreides is by far my favourite character from Dune, and I just don't see how GRRM could pull a God-Emperor for Bran without it looking stretched and cheesy (at best), because it takes Leto more then just his superpowers (which Bran doesn't have either) to actually become Emperor in the first place: First he does have a claim, and second with the planet Dune (Spice) and a lot of loyal followers quite a power base. Bran doesn't have neither (the North ist the least populated region of the Seven Kingdoms), so the other regions would not simply follow a kitn on the Iron Throne, why should they? - As far as we know at this moment, the knowledge and power lies in the trees, there are no Weirdwoods left in the South, so even with some strange and suddenly appearing "mullumullu" makes it no longer required for Bran to be linked to a tree, the Reech, Dorne, Stormlands and the Crownlands would say: "F*** yourself!"

He ranks right up there for me as well.  Partially because the build to being God Emperor was believably built from the time he was a kid all the way to being what he became.  And partially because of his incredible self-awareness about what he had become, and what he had to allow happen in order to give the people what they truly needed.

I am having trouble coming up with how George could pull it off with Bran at this point.  I really have to wonder if he didn't plan Bran being "a" king, (of the North, of North of the Wall, of his own dreams?) and the Ds were so stellar at paying attention they forgot the description beyond "King."  This is entirely within the realm of possibility, and dead on the nose exactly how stupid they are.

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38 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

He ranks right up there for me as well.  Partially because the build to being God Emperor was believably built from the time he was a kid all the way to being what he became.  And partially because of his incredible self-awareness about what he had become, and what he had to allow happen in order to give the people what they truly needed.

I am having trouble coming up with how George could pull it off with Bran at this point.  I really have to wonder if he didn't plan Bran being "a" king, (of the North, of North of the Wall, of his own dreams?) and the Ds were so stellar at paying attention they forgot the description beyond "King."  This is entirely within the realm of possibility, and dead on the nose exactly how stupid they are.

Id say Dany was a lot closer to Leto than Bran, I mean she didn't have his powers but both were empire builders who ultimately waged through war an expansion of their control for their people. They ruled as "tyrants", practiced some form of eugenics(Dany didn't but I digress) and in general weren't very nice but they got it done. Leto was arguably far more tyrannical as he never questioned his actions which were ruthless.

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4 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

Elio and Linda have done a segment on YouTube re. the endgame and, on the whole, I agree with them.

Needless to say, they're also struggling with the Bran as king scenario.

 

I agree and disagree with a lot of what they say here.

I really don t see jon returning to the NW because it has proven to be a useless and flawed order  and is basically a stepback for the character. He has literally been there, done that and moved on… And him deciding to isolate himslef north of the Wall coldhands style seems really depresing for me... And if he has a child he certainly won t abandon him/her...

I also don t see tyrion being hand. He is acused of so many crimes and so generally hated that I have no idea how he can have a political position like hand...

On the other hand I agree with a lot of what they say about sansa and bran...

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4 hours ago, 7th-key said:

Exactly. I like the point this reviewer makes, that the show seems unable to understand that being a bad ass is not the only way to show strenght and itelligence:

 

I did enjoy the video, but I just wanted to say:  I LOVE THE GHOST PIC HERE!! 

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