[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

[divica]

33 minutes ago, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

I would just like to point out that a couple of months after S8, I'm still entirely convinced that the ending was incredibly, amazingly, catastrophically bad. 

I am seriously curious about what will be GOT's legacy. How it will affect the Fandom of the series, the Fandom of the books and the prequels... 

To me this season really hurt all Fandoms and leaves me scared and sad about the future books. 

[Lord Stackspear]

On 7/24/2019 at 2:17 PM, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

I would just like to point out that a couple of months after S8, I'm still entirely convinced that the ending was incredibly, amazingly, catastrophically bad. 

I agree.  At some point, it’s not worth thinking about S8 anymore, but I am amazed at how often I think about S8 and just how bad of an ending it was for this story.  Before S8, about once a year, I would get great joy from re-watching all prior seasons and/or re-reading the books.  I would always find it illuminating to visit the characters earlier in their development knowing what I know now about where their stories end up.  It made their characters seem richer and deeper.  But, after S8, I just always think, what would be the point in re-watching or re-reading - everything ends with Dany going insane, Jon having to kill her, and some stupid non-sensical council where the world I knew and loved no longer exists.  It makes everything that came before seem pointless and without meaning.   

[SeanF]

"Her Satanic Majesty"

Yep, that's how the script for Season 8, Episode 6 describes Daenerys.  For good measure, Bryan Cogman says that in earlier seasons we were watching the rise to power of a villain, not a heroine.

So, that's how the Show Runners see Daenerys.  As the Devil (disguised as an angel of light).  Jorah, Jon Snow, Barristan, Missandei, Grey Worm, were unwittingly serving the Devil.  Which means of course, that Robert, LF, Renly, Pycelle, were right to wish to assassinate her, and Ned and Barristan were wrong to oppose it.  It removes any kind of nuance or moral ambiguity from Jon and Tyrion's decisions to turn against her.  For who would not wish to destroy the Devil.

Oh, and Tyrion wanted a "bloodless revolution" in Slavers Bay and Westeros.  That must explain why his advice to Daenerys was so f*cking awful.

It hurts us, it hurts us.

 

 

[Cas Stark]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

"Her Satanic Majesty"

Yep, that's how the script for Season 8, Episode 6 describes Daenerys.  For good measure, Bryan Cogman says that in earlier seasons we were watching the rise to power of a villain, not a heroine.

So, that's how the Show Runners see Daenerys.  As the Devil (disguised as an angel of light).  Jorah, Jon Snow, Barristan, Missandei, Grey Worm, were unwittingly serving the Devil.  Which means of course, that Robert, LF, Renly, Pycelle, were right to wish to assassinate her, and Ned and Barristan were wrong to oppose it.  It removes any kind of nuance or moral ambiguity from Jon and Tyrion's decisions to turn against her.  For who would not wish to destroy the Devil.

Oh, and Tyrion wanted a "bloodless revolution" in Slavers Bay and Westeros.  That must explain why his advice to Daenerys was so f*cking awful.

It hurts us, it hurts us.

 

 

Their scripts have always been sophomoric and juvenile, peppered with jaw droppingly dumb asides and directions, so I can't say I am surprised.

[Prince of the North]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

"Her Satanic Majesty"

Yep, that's how the script for Season 8, Episode 6 describes Daenerys.  For good measure, Bryan Cogman says that in earlier seasons we were watching the rise to power of a villain, not a heroine.

So, that's how the Show Runners see Daenerys.  As the Devil (disguised as an angel of light).  Jorah, Jon Snow, Barristan, Missandei, Grey Worm, were unwittingly serving the Devil.  Which means of course, that Robert, LF, Renly, Pycelle, were right to wish to assassinate her, and Ned and Barristan were wrong to oppose it.  It removes any kind of nuance or moral ambiguity from Jon and Tyrion's decisions to turn against her.  For who would not wish to destroy the Devil.

Oh, and Tyrion wanted a "bloodless revolution" in Slavers Bay and Westeros.  That must explain why his advice to Daenerys was so f*cking awful.

It hurts us, it hurts us.

 

 

Sigh.  It's just more of the same, sadly.  Just the latest (perhaps last?) instance of the showrunners giving a wink and a nod as they insist "Oh, we planned this all along!" when we can see with our own eyes that there was never much of a plan after the Red Wedding was wrapped

As usual, a total retcon.  In fact, I think we need to coin a new term that means gaslighting crossed with retconning...  

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

Sigh.  It's just more of the same, sadly.  Just the latest (perhaps last?) instance of the showrunners giving a wink and a nod as they insist "Oh, we planned this all along!" when we can see with our own eyes that there was never much of a plan after the Red Wedding was wrapped

As usual, a total retcon.  In fact, I think we need to coin a new term that means gaslighting crossed with retconning...  

I don't doubt at all that they got Dany as a tragic villain from George, people who think they did that on their own and she has a different ending are fooling themselves.  However, like pretty much everything from season 5 onward, they never created the story to support it, they never really created a believable bond even between Tyrion and Dany, why would you keep someone as your adviser who gets your allies killed over and over?  They never sold Dany as a villain or why or how her worldview became skewed.  They never sold much of anything in the last 3 years and they wasted the acting assets and storylines they had.  Cersei dying like a fucking coward?  Arya taking a powder for no stated reasons?  And on an on.  If GRRM ever finishes the series I'm sure that most of these end points will be well grounded and believable.  If. that is. 

[Prince of the North]

14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't doubt at all that they got Dany as a tragic villain from George, people who think they did that on their own and she has a different ending are fooling themselves.  However, like pretty much everything from season 5 onward, they never created the story to support it, they never really created a believable bond even between Tyrion and Dany, why would you keep someone as your adviser who gets your allies killed over and over?  They never sold Dany as a villain or why or how her worldview became skewed.  They never sold much of anything in the last 3 years and they wasted the acting assets and storylines they had.  Cersei dying like a fucking coward?  Arya taking a powder for no stated reasons?  And on an on.  If GRRM ever finishes the series I'm sure that most of these end points will be well grounded and believable.  If. that is. 

Oh, no argument here.  I think that's basically how it went down.  But when they actually had to show some writing ability/creativity to bridge the gap from the end of the book material to the broad-strokes endings that they were given...they were completely unable.  So, they flailed about and threw a whole lotta nonsense at the audience.  What I'm pointing out is that they've always tried to gaslight and retcon what they did as "Oh, we've had that planned for years!"  Uh, no, anyone can plainly see they didn't 

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't doubt at all that they got Dany as a tragic villain from George, people who think they did that on their own and she has a different ending are fooling themselves.  However, like pretty much everything from season 5 onward, they never created the story to support it, they never really created a believable bond even between Tyrion and Dany, why would you keep someone as your adviser who gets your allies killed over and over?  They never sold Dany as a villain or why or how her worldview became skewed.  They never sold much of anything in the last 3 years and they wasted the acting assets and storylines they had.  Cersei dying like a fucking coward?  Arya taking a powder for no stated reasons?  And on an on.  If GRRM ever finishes the series I'm sure that most of these end points will be well grounded and believable.  If. that is. 

I think the plot point they got from Martin is that Jon kills Daenerys.  Whether Daenerys is indeed, a self righteous maniac at that point, the victim of treachery, or simply a political antagonist to the Starks, is still moot, IMHO.

[teej6]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think the plot point they got from Martin is that Jon kills Daenerys.  Whether Daenerys is indeed, a self righteous maniac at that point, the victim of treachery, or simply a political antagonist to the Starks, is still moot, IMHO.

If Jon is killing Dany, it’s not simply because she is a political antagonist to the Starks. It has to be more than that. Dany has to go to war with the Starks,  threaten the lives of his siblings/cousins, or cause enough war and destruction for him to want to kill her in the end. And I don’t believe Book!Jon is dumb like his show counterpart to be tricked into killing Dany by Tyrion or anyone else.

Let’s be clear, I’m not saying that Dany will become a genocidal maniac that will incinerate a million innocents because she snaps. She will though, IMO, end up becoming a destructive force that will do more harm than good for Westeros, and GRRM has been laying the groundwork for just that. The last Dany chapter in ADWD is her realization of her full potential and her purpose in life, which is not planting trees. Her arc is that of a conqueror who may end up becoming a megalomaniac. And I’m not convinced that Tyrion will become one of her close advisors let alone her Hand. I think he will travel with her and be part of her inner circle but how much influence he will have over her decision making is debatable. 

I think Aegon will be the trigger for Dany’s descent into ruthless tyrant — yes she will become cruel and tyrannical, in many ways she already is. There’s a reason why we see the events in Dany’s life purely from her perspective. Her enemies so far have been despicable humans that the readership felt deserved their fates. When she comes to Westeros, she will not be perceived as the savior she believes she is. I believe she has already lost Dorne — Arianne’s thoughts indicate Dorne will put their lot with Aegon. GRRM, IMO, is not going to show Dany as a victim of circumstances, instead she is going to make some very shitty and eventful choices that will define her as the villain in the end. But as GRRM likes to give his villians a POV and reasons for their downfall, I’m sure Dany will be seen as very tragic character in the end — a character with so much potential for good who succumbs to her baser and crueler instincts in the end.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, teej6 said:

If Jon is killing Dany, it’s not simply because she is a political antagonist to the Starks. It has to be more than that. Dany has to go to war with the Starks,  threaten the lives of his siblings/cousins, or cause enough war and destruction for him to want to kill her in the end. And I don’t believe Book!Jon is dumb like his show counterpart to be tricked into killing Dany by Tyrion or anyone else.

Let’s be clear, I’m not saying that Dany will become a genocidal maniac that will incinerate a million innocents because she snaps. She will though, IMO, end up becoming a destructive force that will do more harm than good for Westeros, and GRRM has been laying the groundwork for just that. The last Dany chapter in ADWD is her realization of her full potential and her purpose in life, which is not planting trees. Her arc is that of a conqueror who may end up becoming a megalomaniac. And I’m not convinced that Tyrion will become one of her close advisors let alone her Hand. I think he will travel with her and be part of her inner circle but how much influence he will have over her decision making is debatable. 

I think Aegon will be the trigger for Dany’s dissent into ruthless tyrant — yes she will become cruel and tyrannical, in many ways she already is. There’s a reason why we see the events in Dany’s life purely from her perspective. Her enemies so far have been despicable humans that the readership felt deserved their fates. When she comes to Westeros, she will not be perceived as the savior she believes she is. I believe she has already lost Dorne — Arianne’s thoughts indicate Dorne will put their lot with Aegon. GRRM, IMO, is not going to show Dany as a victim of circumstances, instead she is going to make some very shitty and eventful choices that will define her as the villain in the end. But as GRRM likes to give his villians a POV and reasons for their downfall, I’m sure Dany will be seen as very tragic character in the end — a character with so much potential for good who succumbs to her baser and crueler instincts in the end.

You may be right, and that's a reasonable way of interpreting her final chapter in ADWD.

But, people can be political antagonists without one necessarily being worse than the other.  It may simply be that Jon is forced to choose between Dany, on the one hand, and Sansa/Arya on the other, and he chooses the latter.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

If Jon is killing Dany, it’s not simply because she is a political antagonist to the Starks. It has to be more than that. Dany has to go to war with the Starks,  threaten the lives of his siblings/cousins, or cause enough war and destruction for him to want to kill her in the end. And I don’t believe Book!Jon is dumb like his show counterpart to be tricked into killing Dany by Tyrion or anyone else.

Let’s be clear, I’m not saying that Dany will become a genocidal maniac that will incinerate a million innocents because she snaps. She will though, IMO, end up becoming a destructive force that will do more harm than good for Westeros, and GRRM has been laying the groundwork for just that. The last Dany chapter in ADWD is her realization of her full potential and her purpose in life, which is not planting trees. Her arc is that of a conqueror who may end up becoming a megalomaniac. And I’m not convinced that Tyrion will become one of her close advisors let alone her Hand. I think he will travel with her and be part of her inner circle but how much influence he will have over her decision making is debatable. 

I think Aegon will be the trigger for Dany’s dissent into ruthless tyrant — yes she will become cruel and tyrannical, in many ways she already is. There’s a reason why we see the events in Dany’s life purely from her perspective. Her enemies so far have been despicable humans that the readership felt deserved their fates. When she comes to Westeros, she will not be perceived as the savior she believes she is. I believe she has already lost Dorne — Arianne’s thoughts indicate Dorne will put their lot with Aegon. GRRM, IMO, is not going to show Dany as a victim of circumstances, instead she is going to make some very shitty and eventful choices that will define her as the villain in the end. But as GRRM likes to give his villians a POV and reasons for their downfall, I’m sure Dany will be seen as very tragic character in the end — a character with so much potential for good who succumbs to her baser and crueler instincts in the end.

I agree with all of this.  I always wanted her to either abandon her quest for power or turn evil, but I never expected GRRM would really go down that road and have one of the fan favorites break bad.  Good for him.

[teej6]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

You may be right, and that's a reasonable way of interpreting her final chapter in ADWD.

But, people can be political antagonists without one necessarily being worse than the other.  It may simply be that Jon is forced to choose between Dany, on the one hand, and Sansa/Arya on the other, and he chooses the latter.

The problem I have with the above scenario is that I don’t see the Starks opposing Dany for some flimsy reason like Northern independence. For them to become political antagonists to Dany, the Starks will have to feel an existential threat from her. There could be other reasons for the Starks to oppose her — they could back Aegon (Sansa could end up marrying Aegon, although I think Aegon will make a marriage alliance with either with Margery or Arianne). As of now, I can’t find a compelling reason for the Starks to fight Dany, especially if her dragons prove useful in the fight against the WWs. She needs to give them a reason to want to kill her. 

[SeanF]

51 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The problem I have with the above scenario is that I don’t see the Starks opposing Dany for some flimsy reason like Northern independence. For them to become political antagonists to Dany, the Starks will have to feel an existential threat from her. There could be other reasons for the Starks to oppose her — they could back Aegon (Sansa could end up marrying Aegon, although I think Aegon will make a marriage alliance with either with Margery or Arianne). As of now, I can’t find a compelling reason for the Starks to fight Dany, especially if her dragons prove useful in the fight against the WWs. She needs to give them a reason to want to kill her. 

People can become an existential threat, without being so at the outset.  I wouldn't see Northern independence as being a flimsy pretext for relations to break down.  Or Jon's ancestry could be a source of conflict.  Even if we discount the nonsense of a secret annulment/remarriage, there would be people who would prefer the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna as King, in place of a foreign whore who doesn't know her place.  He's a man, he's a native, he's a warrior, and he"s the son of Rhaegar, rather than the Mad King. They would argue that if Rhaegar had won at the Trident, Jon would have been legitimised, and placed ahead of Dany in the line of succession, so why should he be disqualified over a technicality?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

All the ideas above for Dany's possible fate are much better than what the dudebros gave us, the script is much worse than the actual last episode.  At least the show had pretty pics, LOL 

One thing that is alluded to much in the books (and even in the show with Tyrion being left out of the Citadel's ASOIAF), is that history isn't always accurate.  Dany may go being believed to be someone horrible by much of the masses, but perhaps some of our other POV characters will know that that isn't quite so, but it will be the 'official' version. 

[teej6]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Or Jon's ancestry could be a source of conflict.  Even if we discount the nonsense of a secret annulment/remarriage, there would be people who would prefer the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna as King, in place of a foreign whore who doesn't know her place.  He's a man, he's a native, he's a warrior, and he"s the son of Rhaegar, rather than the Mad King. They would argue that if Rhaegar had won at the Trident, Jon would have been legitimised, and placed ahead of Dany in the line of succession, so why should he be disqualified over a technicality?

Yeah, I can see Jon’s claim (I actually believe he is legitimate and will have a stronger claim than Dany) being a thorn in Dany’s side. Of course it’s not going to play out like what we saw in D&D’s fanfic. Jon may actually press his claim in the books because he is convinced that it’s the only way to save Westeros. 

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

One thing that is alluded to much in the books (and even in the show with Tyrion being left out of the Citadel's ASOIAF), is that history isn't always accurate.  Dany may go being believed to be someone horrible by much of the masses, but perhaps some of our other POV characters will know that that isn't quite so, but it will be the 'official' version. 

That's a good point. Also I think Jon could very well return to the story with a darker personality in the books.

GRRM said the show was an alternate reality, so it's like the show was that bad historian messing it all up.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

All the ideas above for Dany's possible fate are much better than what the dudebros gave us, the script is much worse than the actual last episode.  At least the show had pretty pics, LOL 

One thing that is alluded to much in the books (and even in the show with Tyrion being left out of the Citadel's ASOIAF), is that history isn't always accurate.  Dany may go being believed to be someone horrible by much of the masses, but perhaps some of our other POV characters will know that that isn't quite so, but it will be the 'official' version. 

I could easily envisage her taking the Kings Landing  by storm, and unwittingly triggering the caches of wildfire in the process.  In the books, the city is mostly built of wood, so it would burn like London in 1666.  What would actually be an accident would look like deliberate atrocity.    

I think that Dany's being a woman, a foreigner, and Aerys II's daughter, will ultimately doom her in Westeros, however good or heroic she is.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

I could easily envisage her taking the Kings Landing  by storm, and unwittingly triggering the caches of wildfire in the process.  In the books, the city is mostly built of wood, so it would burn like London in 1666.  What would actually be an accident would look like deliberate atrocity.    

I think that Dany's being a woman, a foreigner, and Aerys II's daughter, will ultimately doom her in Westeros, however good or heroic she is.

Regardless of her original intent or actual actions, if the final narrator is an opponent, Daenerys, and indeed any notion of the Targaryen dinasty, will be a horror story of tyrants and idiots unredeemable by the occasional Jaehaerys. 

GRRM repeatedly gives us the unreliable narrator, the perspective of an emotional recounting of events.

The notion that, in any iteration of this universe, a defeated foe might be spoken well of is at the very least naive.

I don't know how it well happen, but the Mother of Dragons will be remembered as the Mother of Monsters.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Regardless of her original intent or actual actions, if the final narrator is an opponent, Daenerys, and indeed any notion of the Targaryen dinasty, will be a horror story of tyrants and idiots unredeemable by the occasional Jaehaerys. 

GRRM repeatedly gives us the unreliable narrator, the perspective of an emotional recounting of events.

The notion that, in any iteration of this universe, a defeated foe might be spoken well of is at the very least naive.

I don't know how it well happen, but the Mother of Dragons will be remembered as the Mother of Monsters.

Well, they'll have D & D to piss all over her memory.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

14 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

That's a good point. Also I think Jon could very well return to the story with a darker personality in the books.

GRRM said the show was an alternate reality, so it's like the show was that bad historian messing it all up.

 

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

I could easily envisage her taking the Kings Landing  by storm, and unwittingly triggering the caches of wildfire in the process.  In the books, the city is mostly built of wood, so it would burn like London in 1666.  What would actually be an accident would look like deliberate atrocity.    

I think that Dany's being a woman, a foreigner, and Aerys II's daughter, will ultimately doom her in Westeros, however good or heroic she is.

I think King's Landing could go down a number of ways, and I highly suspect any triggering by BELLS should have something to do with Connington, or it should, LOL  I cannot imagine that what we saw is close to the actual KL battle.  Also, as an aside, I'm tired of hearing that KL has a million people, more people than all of the North combined, etc., etc., according to the Ds and St. Tyrion of the Street of Silk.  I also call BS on the idea that even if Dany burns the entire city (of whatever amount of inhabitants)........that she would be responsible for more deaths than Tywin and Cersei combined.  MY GAWD, Tywin was warring and Rain of Castemereing entire families/castles for decades, before he was even a Lord or Hand of the King.  But the Ds need their nonsensical numbers, an empty North that never remembers, and obvious Evil to hit the audience over the head to TRY and tell their story. 

Once the 'histories' are written of the time in universe, I suspect that the greatest sin may be that Dany is a woman.  Reading Fire and Blood, and giving thought to all the supposed 'facts' about different powerful and/or well known women over the course of ASOIAF's history, I become more convinced that what may be widely thought of Dany  is liable be an inaccurate mess.  It's somewhere between sad and angering when I think about it and what it means, not just in that world but in ours as well.