[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

[Le Cygne]

On 9/8/2019 at 6:43 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I have no context for this, but still, I think MY NIK deserves the Emmy just for this: 

He deserves better roles, that's for sure!

[The Dragon Demands]

I'm looking for an old interview Benioff gave, possibly more than one but I think this was text, which I remembered reading around the beginning of Season 7.  For the life of me, I thought it was in Time.com, but it is not.

In this interview, he expands on his comments about how he got most of his writing done in last minute bursts from midnight to dawn - which he's talked about a lot, actually, including his dvd commentaries.

But in this he went so far as to say, that this kept up his wife and children so much that he had an outdoor shed of his house converted into a (furnished) writer's room.  
 

I was all set to make a video on this, but A - I can't find it, and B- on paper, out of context, it doesn't sound that weird; who wouldn't want a private study or workspace?  what bugs me about it is the "I get bursts of energy at night" part....evidencing just how little..."group discussion" there was on his writing.  How reckless he was.
 

But the dvd quotes will have to do.  I'll reconcile this by saying I "cut it for time" (so my video on his writing doesn't drag for a full hour)

Nonetheless, can anyone find some old interview (or interviews) in which a reporter is actually at Benioff's home in Beverly Hills, and is describing his work environment?  I'm not sure.  

[Amris]

I need a little distraction from real-world issues so putting down a rant here. Maybe I can get Game of Thrones out of my system finally and not be bothered by it anymore.

So here it comes. Feel free to ignore

Jon:

he used to be one of my book favs. Before the show ruined him.

In season 6 the show portrays him as an idiot hothead who starts the Battle of the Bastards with an absurd charge that nearly gets all his army killed unnecessarily (despite knowing full well a charge is what he exactly can not do and despite having extensively prepared for the complete opposite kind of tactics with prepared positions to fight from to whittle Ramsay's army down.) Jon's men trust him with their lives - trust him to make military decisions that will give them the best chance to win the battle and survive. Instead Jon needlessly throws their lives away -  on an emotional impulse and despite knowing better - just to make his own hurt about Rickon go away for a second. Never - ever give this kind of guy a military command again. Please!

In season 7 Jon proves that militarily he can't even successfully lead a small commando raid. It ends in an utter fiasco. Why oh why can't you leave this originally cool character some redeeming traits, D&D?

Ontop of that the whole 'grab a zombie on a commando raid into the north' idea is so completely out there from the start that anyone going along in support of it must be considered brain dead. Yes, Jon at first rightly opposes it - but he comes around and ends up supporting it. As if that weren't bad enough: he comes around really fast. When he should have fought the idea tooth and nail and never ever agree to it. He of all people, knowing the north, should have known better.  He was the one person on Dany's council with the expertise to bury Tyrion's totally idiotic idea. Dany -  and the realm - depended on Jon standing his ground making sure this idiocy does not happen. And he failed. Even as a council advisor he failed already. Miserably.

Then he fails again by single-handedly pushing Dany over the edge into madness. By not communicating with her. In what is obviously a very difficult relationship crisis in season 8 he simply turns away and does not talk. In the 'how do I make a relationship crisis worse' he scores a 10 out of 10.

Now if it were just some family matter with no wider consequences this would just be that: lack of communication skills in personal matters and unnecessary bitterness as a result. But it is not just some private family matter. Dany's wellbeing is an issue that the safety of the realm rests on. And Jon simply ignores that inconvenient little fact. Just like with the mad charge at the Battle of the Bastards. Jon feels momentarly bad so he makes the worst possible decisions. No matter that other people's lives hinge on his decisions. It's a pattern. D&D have made him into someone completely unsuited for wider responsibilities. And destroyed a character that I used to like. And why? Just because they want to use him as a plot device to get their story going the idiot way.

To top it all off Jon isn't even a real help during the Battle of Winterfell against the White Walkers. Who kills the NK? Arya. Well and good if Jon had another role that he was there for. He hasn't though: He doesn't become king. He doesn't become a good military leader. He doesn't lead a successful commando raid. He doesn't help keep Dany stable. He doesn't prevent Tyrion's idiotic plans. He fails in every way.

In the end I have to ask: why has Jon been in the story at all? Just so he can be used as a plot device to have everything go sideways always? That's a little - ah - weak. But to top if off: why have him resurrected? A resurrection isn't some minor random thing to happen in a story after all. It should be a major point. So why have it? Just so the resurrected person can throw some more spanners into the story. Gah.

Dany:

Don't start me on Dany. If the show has made Jon into a fool it has transformed Dany from a caring human being into an utter madwoman and mass-murderer. And that over the course of what? Four episodes? And the excuse being mostly that she is frustrated in her relationship with Jon and secondly that she has been listening to an advisor who has consistently given her bad advice (Tyrion?)?

What kinds of reasons are this? Fire the bad advisor is the obvious solution. Fire the lover too if  having him around hurts too much. But burn down entire cities? Just to feel better for a second? Come on. That makes no sense. Especially in someone who always cared. And it didn't even help militarily. There is no rational explanation. This whole plotline ending was badly forced.

Cersei was in the Red Keep for the whole time. And we get shown over and over again that the Red keep sits on the edge of KL, on 3 sides surrounded by the sea with just one side connected to the city proper and divided from it by huge walls. Meaning Cersei was nicely isolated from the vast majority of the city population. Dany had 3 powerful flying beasts able to get into the Red Keep and killing Cersei without ever touching the rest of the city. (That was before the script did its utmost to have Tyrion come up with idiotic plans to decimate Dany's dragons and scatter and reduce Dany's army and to stall and give Cersei time to place additional scorpions).

It is my suspicion that Lena Headey being such a good actress and doing such a great job as Cersei backfired here. I can't shake the feeling that D&D fell so in love with their (admittedly great) villainess that they felt unwilling to let her part from the story at the point that would have been logical (Dany's arrival with her 3 dragons and overwhelming force) and desperately sought for a reason - any reason - to keep her in the story longer. With the result of making Tyrion into the worst advisor ever and sacrificing all the remaining in-story logic.

Tyrion:

He starts out supposedly super-clever (so much so that his story is hard for me to read in the books because Martin's desire to make this character appear clever and cool is just too obvious) but then he ends up the most brain dead advisor ever? With giving bad advice after bad advice? All in order to somehow get rid of Dany's dragons and armies. So the season 7 and 8 story can go its idiotic way and Lena Headey gets the chance to shine a little longer? Gah.

And does Tyrion at least get fired for the bad job he's been doing? No. He can't of course. Because Peter Dinklage also is a very good actor and seeing him depart from the story is also something D&D could not stand. So despite everything, Cersei and Tyrion had to be kept in the story to the very end. Nevermind the utter mess this makes out of the story logic.

I am of the firm opinion that it is only a little exagerated to say: Dany had to lose her mind and burn down KL and kill everyone because Cersei and Tyrion had to be kept in the story all costs.

Bran:

Bran and his quest in the North are a kind of Frodo analogue to me. The little guy who is no fighter but struggles through a quest of high magic that is supposed to heavily influence the outcome of the whole conflict. Now I have no problem with Bran as a character. But put Frodo on the throne in Gondor? Really? I mean: Really? So in the end the whole 'high magic quest story arc' wasn't to save the realm at all? It was for putting Frodo on the throne of Gondor? What?

And what was the Aragorn and Arwen story for then? Why put it in? Why did I have to read it? I feel cheated as a reader.

Sansa:

Sansa isn't a character I can relate to. She bores me. I find her bland. I would never voluntarily read a book with a Sansa as a main character. Having said that I understand that some readers love her and - in the books at least - I don't hate her.

Now the problem is: while I just can't relate to her in the books  - I have come to outrightly hate her in the show starting with season 6. D&D have taken a bland character and made her into someone really, really dislikable.

The issue is the Battle of Winterfell.

Sansa has the reinforcements from the Vale well underway (kudos to her) and just hours away from the Battlefield (at most) - and she never tells Jon?

What???

Jon is supposed to general this battle and she withholds this absolutely crucial piece of information from him?

The piece of information that would have ensured victory? And with a much - much - lower cost of lives? If Jon had known reinforcements were on their way he could have made a much more sensible battle plan. Hell: just starting the battle 2 hours later would have made a giant difference!!

Sansa willingly, needlessly sacrifices the lives of hundreds - thousands - of Jons soldiers? For what?

For exactly nothing.

No one forces her to withhold the information. It doesn't even give her any personal advantage (petty as that would have been). It makes no sense at all. Yet we are supposed to believe this outrageous behaviour is somehow logical. (The real reason of course being that D&D wanted to surprise us viewers with the sudden Vale arrival and they sacrificed Sansa as a character and thousands of soldiers (who are 'just expandable extras' after all) for their childish wish.) Gah. Double Gah.

A story that supposedly is not glamorizing military action treats the footsoldier as a superflouus extra that can be sacrificed needlessly in masses just to satisfy a whim of the showrunners so they can show off by a surprise arrival of a Vale army. I hate it. Hate it. 

After this absolutely horrible behaviour I never could feel sympathy for show-Sansa again. Sorry.

This has nothing to do with Sophie Turner btw. It's the film script I have a massive issue with.

The Teleportation:

The showrunners want us to just ignore the fact that characters start to teleport all over the place since season 6.  As if this was just a minor thing and anyone paying attention to it being overly critical.

But it's not a minor thing. The issue is: if you can't make a story work within the framework of its own in-world logic then the story logic goes out of the window. And if the logic goes out of the window then the suspense does too. Because as a viewer you get bumped with your nose on the fact that everything follows the script and thus in reality the in-world characters have exactly zero influence on how the story develops. It's called 'suspension of disbelief'. Showrunners should understand that. Actually I'm sure D&D know it. But it seems they were supremely unwilling to act accordingly. They ignored their better knowledge. And want us to ignore it too.

That D&D ignored the suspension of disbelief issue in such a major way is probably connected to the whole seasons 7&8 feeling incredibly rushed issue:

Just 13 episodes to take things from 'Dany has not even yet arrived in Westeros' (mid-point of GRRM's originally proposed plotline) to 'Dany arrives, conquers the whole of Westeros, then the war with the White Walkes starts, gets fought and won. And the aftermath plays out and the new powerstructure of Westeros gets settled.') So 60 episodes for the first half of the story, 13 episodes for the second half. A very tilted story structure. Which is a major contributor to producing all these story-loopholes.

I remember after season 6 somehow D&D told someone they had 13 episodes left and people were aghast. D&D were very firm about it though.

Which means that at the half-way point of the story D&D were already committed to cutting the second half short to just 13 episodes. Which in turn means it was their deliberate decision. Which in turn forced all the above errors into the story and made a mess out of it.

[Lady Anna]

On 1/19/2020 at 1:17 PM, Amris said:

Just 13 episodes to take things from 'Dany has not even yet arrived in Westeros' (mid-point of GRRM's originally proposed plotline) to 'Dany arrives, conquers the whole of Westeros, then the war with the White Walkes starts, gets fought and won. And the aftermath plays out and the new powerstructure of Westeros gets settled.') So 60 episodes for the first half of the story, 13 episodes for the second half. A very tilted story structure. Which is a major contributor to producing all these story-loopholes.

I remember after season 6 somehow D&D told someone they had 13 episodes left and people were aghast. D&D were very firm about it though.

Which means that at the half-way point of the story D&D were already committed to cutting the second half short to just 13 episodes. Which in turn means it was their deliberate decision. Which in turn forced all the above errors into the story and made a mess out of it.

If I may step in and vent for a bit, THIS here is exactly what I fear will happen with the books as well (if they come out). You brought up the issue with Dany's arrival and fight against the Others and I fear it will also feel rushed as hell in the books (and the books contain many more characters and storylines than the show did).

Anyway I agree so much! with your post. But especially with this section, cause it really sums it up, doesn't?

[TheNecromancerofMirkwood]

On 1/20/2020 at 5:46 PM, Lady Anna said:

If I may step in and vent for a bit, THIS here is exactly what I fear will happen with the books as well (if they come out). You brought up the issue with Dany's arrival and fight against the Others and I fear it will also feel rushed as hell in the books (and the books contain many more characters and storylines than the show did).

I dunno....Martin promised that The Winds of Winter is going to have a massive reaping of characters....but who knows. Maybe he'll really have to do A Time for Wolves in-between so that A Dream of Spring is the final book....