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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

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2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Problem was that they focused heavily on Dany's arc that the world of GOT turned smaller and smaller. It was easier for them to develop one arc and expand it, get the audience engaged into that and then aim for the big surprise. 

In the books Dany is not a big investment, there are much more characters around her, far more stories and heroes and she doesn't carry the whole weight. You suddenly see why GM was saying there was enough material to do more seasons.  

Exactly. All of the cutting, chopping, adding, and subtracting really ruined it for them. But they were on to Star Wars and instead of using most of the material that could have helped them with a more plausible story they threw away Martin's advice and went their own direction, hence the {non} ending we have seen. Martin warned of the "Butterfly Effect".

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Why in God's name did they make Bran such an unlikable, autistic creep if they knew he was gonna end up as king?

They've made Jon dull as fucking plywood on the show, so that asshole wouldn't be the ideal candidate either, but better than this shite.

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So disappointing. So hollow. So GROSS. 

Not only does GRRM screw us by putting the character most like himself on the throne, but D&D screw us by making Bran an unlikable useless twat, but HEY! He's even more unlikable because he saw this all coming and participated in setting up this specific outcome. Creepy Bran, elected despite his unlikability and disinterest in his family or servants or citizens or running anything or contributing anything. But he's a story teller, not one of those soldiers George obviously feels inferior to, and he rams that in as being a plausible reason to have Bran as king. I should have guessed based on GRRM blogs and interviews that anyone who was a soldier would never actually end up winning any good outcome in this story,  but I could have stomached cowardly Sam before creepy Bran. Shudder.  Nope. Not interested in the rest of the books if that's the way it ends.

Bronn. Starving people can fuck off because I don't want to waste money, but HEY, I'll finance some brothels!  Glad you like that kind of scum bag so much D&D.

So so so much other WTFuckery  because 'reasons' but other posts have covered them well already. 

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3 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Cersei's & Jaime's deaths are even worse when you realize they could have survived if only they weren't standing in that spot.

They wanted the drama of Tyrion inexplicably finding Jaime and Cersei after he had risked everything for them to escape, if it were realistic it would've taken hundreds of people months to dig their bodies out of the rubble of the red keep, it was a huge structure. Jaime was dead for me the moment he left Brienne to go back to Cersei, his character was unrecognizable as was Tyrions, he died a long time ago, season 4 really.

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The more I think about it, the less I blame the writing (although they made serious mistakes) and the more I blame the utter absence of any chemistry between Jon and Danny.   Without that we had to accept their brains migrated below their wasted, without seeing any real evidence of it between them.

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2 minutes ago, SandorRogaine said:

 

That’s just your opinion.

She liberated people for most of her arc, never dodged a battle even if it meant putting herself in personal danger, fought the army of the undead to save everyone in Westeros, I think those deeds were heroic, so no it isn't just my opinion, it is something I can back up with facts.

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7 minutes ago, BrianCizMe said:

Exactly. All of the cutting, chopping, adding, and subtracting really ruined it for them. But they were on to Star Wars and instead of using most of the material that could have helped them with a more plausible story they threw away Martin's advice and went their own direction, hence the {non} ending we have seen. Martin warned of the "Butterfly Effect".

Yes to be honest I thought that since they cut so many characters and plot lines from the original, probably to save budget and effort, this means that they wanted to stick to the main arcs and cut any fillers. 

But now I can see the full picture,  they invested on Hollywood classic couple that drives the plot to engage the audience. That is a very simple recipe. But led to a very cheap and dissapointing chopped story with a a sense of soap opera and no final meaning. Shame!

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9 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Cersei's & Jaime's deaths are even worse when you realize they could have survived if only they weren't standing in that spot.

We can say the death of Cersei is on Sandor Clegane. Had he not distracted Gregor, she would still have her brickproof shield, lol.

(Btw, it's great that they let Tyrion go alone to KL, instead of, IDK, have the soldiers search the area in case Cersei survived.)

 

And do they have to call him Bran the Broken in his face? I mean...

Tyrion the Dwarf

Robert the Whoremonger

Daenerys the Incestfruit

Theon the Cockless

Sansa the Raped

Samwell the Fat

Cersei the Brotherfucker

...probably wouldn't slide.

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27 minutes ago, SandorRogaine said:

She has never been the hero of the story. 

I think she has characteristics of both hero and villain.  I don't mind her breaking bad, but not overnight and for reasons that seem flimsy to me.

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45 minutes ago, gorkem said:

Or this is even better. Night king destroys the wall and kills everyone. Except for Drogon, Ghost, and Nymeria. Drogon takes them to a safe place. Then they have hundreds of good bois and girls. 

Wow, leaning hard on the incest there again with Ghost and Nym

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There were many striking visuals that I much appreciated, and they were lit so the viewer could see them. The best one was after Jon stabs Daenerys, and she falls back, arched, in his arms, like Desdemona in Othello's, when he kills his love, in a production of Verdi's opera, Otello.

What? the last time we saw Arya she'd gotten on a blood stained, saddleless white horse that came out of nowhere, unless it belonged to the Golden Company, but they use saddles,  to ride out of ruined KL, so -- What? She's back in KL and not on a horse.  Also, who cleaned up Daenerys and re-braided her hair? 

Therefore, no more than the preceding episodes, this final episode didn't make any more sense than anything that came before, including the visuals.

They all had to feel Themselves so very cleverly witty, replacing the throne of swords with a throne of wheels. Really, Bran as king of the 6 kingdoms? makes as much sense as NYC Mayor de Blasio being potus. Mr Tree Time and Space Internet, who lives mostly in the past, should not have time for such things, while also tracking a dragon or something. Was he warging Drogo, taking Daenerys's body? So he says he never wanted to be king, yet that's why he is here because, you know, to be king, and he immediately kings it, ordering Grey Worm not to kill Jon -- why hadn't Grey Worm killed Jon immediately anyway, when he's killed everybody else who were even just innocents? And how in eff did anybody know Jon had killed Daenerys when there was no body? Why did Drogo take the body? Guess Bran was the best player of them all? The player who, if he spoke at all, said he wasn't playing at all. WTF? 

And that They killed Her w/o even a trial while Tyrion gets yet another trial, one in which everybody forgets why he's there and he talks them into a Holy Roman Empire emperor by electors or something, while the implacable killer and taker of vengeance for His Queen, Grey Worm now stands waaaaaaaay in the background contemplating which travel service to take the Unsullied to ... Naath. 

I caught a glimpse of Yara. But where went Gendry? I couldn't figure out who were most of those people, who by the fact of merely being present (and why were they present? who called them? Tyrion and Jon both in prison), get to be Electors. Thereby opening the way for $tupendou$ political corruption of the buying and selling of title and crown. The history of the electors and the Holy Roman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Polish Empire of elected Magistrates -- let me tell you them. Perfect then, that they give the most words, meaningless politician words, to the ever irrelevant Edmure -- who is he again? Also then, why, if Winterfell and the North are independent, with its own crown, not one of the 6 kingdoms, why does Winterfell get to be an Elector at all? Also, the North does not bend the knee, but suddenly now Sansa is self-crowned Queen of the North. WTF? 

Anyway so much for the breaking of the wheel, you Electors you, replacing it with the throne of swords with the throne of wizard on wheels. 

And all Podrick gets out of his endless loyal service is to join the Kingsguard and push Bran the Broken around in his throne of wheels. I mean, Pod was every woman's dream come true in bed, and now he's to be celibate -- the Kingsguard are supposed to be celibate, which never made any sense to me at all, but then nothing makes sense so wtf is my problem here? 

Also, it drove me crazy that at KL it wasn't at all clear if that was snow or ash blowing across the screen and falling on what surfaces remained. Then, at the waterfront and wharves of Blackwater Bay, KL is all greenry and pretty blue skies, and no scorched earth and bombed out rubble. How did that happen? We never see any of the people who, you know, actually work, so who cleaned up the place? Shyte, back in the aftermath of WWII, those bombed out German cities, and the huge bombed out parts of London and other cities -- it took decades to get things cleared and rebuilt. Yet KL is all clean and up and running within, what? days, weeks? months? WTF? 

What about the Dothraki? Their horsies gonna swim back to the desert or will they team up with the Unsullied in Naath and take the place of the burned up mercenary Gold Company, putting out their killing skill for whomever can pay them? 

In the meantime, from where and with what has Arya funded one hella exploration ship, she who has not so far demonstrated that navigation and ship handling are among her acquired skill sets. Maybe Bronn can tax them to pay of the Iron Bank?

Nor am I particularly fond of Brienne writing a chronicle of redemption for Jaime in the Kings Guard Chronicle Book. "He died in service to his queen." WTF? And what about that mad, self-proclaimed queen Cersei anyway? Is she going down as martyr to the Mad Queen With a Dragon? Turning Jaimie's slayage of the king on its head, more than once, with Jon doing queen slayage may have felt clever, but it was cruel and more than historically misleading, particularly as Daenerys did do good things and Cersei never did a single decent deed in her life, and died whimpering. Or, perhaps that is the point, to go along with all those other phonied up documents like The Song of Ice and Fire filled with lies and holes of omission that show up conveniently meta, standing in for GRRM? 

My prediction that Bronn would be among the last First Men standing turned out correct, though I was worried for a while. He does seem exactly the right person to scheme a way to repay or wiggle out of Cersei's debts to the Iron Bank. He's currently the smartest and only smart one in the 6 kingdoms -- he was far far far away from the Mad Queen and her madness. He lived to pull down the tone to what in the GOTverse is considered comic, sharp wit and repartee. He'll be in that Wheeled Throne before long instead of Bran, you wait and see, as Bran will warg his way into Drogon, looking to find a mate to lay some dragon eggs, or, whatever. 

And wtf was Jon doing up north? Who are those people gamboling behind him as he rides off into the forest? OTOH, why hang out in Castle Black and make another Watch? What are they watching for? Unless, like cicadas, a whole buncha wights or walkers or whatevers are in the ground, waiting another few centuries to hatch and do what the eff? We never did learn what the eff those spiral sigels were all about did we? 

At least this is the final nail in the coffin of all those who thought Got was a romance show, and were certain that Sansa and Jon were madly in lurve and would rule together. 

And like the Book of the Song of ice and Fire that leaves out Tyrion entire -- and the Book of the Kingsguard -- the real story was never told, and we shall never know.

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7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

There were many striking visuals that I much appreciated, and they were lit so the viewer could see them. The best one was after Jon stabs Daenerys, and she falls back, arched, in his arms, like Desdemona in Othello's, when he kills his love, in a production of Verdi's opera, Otello.

What? the last time we saw Arya she'd gotten on a blood stained, saddleless white horse that came out of nowhere, unless it belonged to the Golden Company, but they use saddles,  to ride out of ruined KL, so -- What? She's back in KL and not on a horse.  Also, who cleaned up Daenerys and re-braided her hair? 

Therefore, no more than the preceding episodes, this final episode didn't make any more sense than anything that came before, including the visuals.

They all had to feel Themselves so very cleverly witty, replacing the throne of swords with a throne of wheels. Really, Bran as king of the 6 kingdoms? makes as much sense as NYC Mayor de Blasio being potus. Mr Tree Time and Space Internet, who lives mostly in the past, should not have time for such things, while also tracking a dragon or something. Was he warging Drogo, taking Daenerys's body? So he says he never wanted to be king, yet that's why he is here because, you know, to be king, and he immediately kings it, ordering Grey Worm not to kill Jon -- why hadn't Grey Worm killed Jon immediately anyway, when he's killed everybody else who were even just innocents? And how in eff did anybody know Jon had killed Daenerys when there was no body? Why did Drogo take the body? Guess Bran was the best player of them all? The player who, if he spoke at all, said he wasn't playing at all. WTF? 

And that They killed Her w/o even a trial while Tyrion gets yet another trial, one in which everybody forgets why he's there and he talks them into a Holy Roman Empire emperor by electors or something, while the implacable killer and taker of vengeance for His Queen, Grey Worm now stands waaaaaaaay in the background contemplating which travel service to take the Unsullied to ... Naath. 

I caught a glimpse of Yara. But where went Gendry? I couldn't figure out who were most of those people, who by the fact of merely being present (and why were they present? who called them? Tyrion and Jon both in prison), get to be Electors. Thereby opening the way for $tupendou$ political corruption of the buying and selling of title and crown. The history of the electors and the Holy Roman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Polish Empire of elected Magistrates -- let me tell you them. Perfect then, that they give the most words, meaningless politician words, to the ever irrelevant Edmure -- who is he again? Also then, why, if Winterfell and the North are independent, with its own crown, not one of the 6 kingdoms, why does Winterfell get to be an Elector at all? Also, the North does not bend the knee, but suddenly now Sansa is self-crowned Queen of the North. WTF? 

Anyway so much for the breaking of the wheel, you Electors you, replacing it with the throne of swords with the throne of wizard on wheels. 

And all Podrick gets out of his endless loyal service is to join the Kingsguard and push Bran the Broken around in his throne of wheels. I mean, Pod was every woman's dream come true in bed, and now he's to be celibate -- the Kingsguard are supposed to be celibate, which never made any sense to me at all, but then nothing makes sense so wtf is my problem here? 

Also, it drove me crazy that at KL it wasn't at all clear if that was snow or ash blowing across the screen and falling on what surfaces remained. Then, at the waterfront and wharves of Blackwater Bay, KL is all greenry and pretty blue skies, and no scorched earth and bombed out rubble. How did that happen? We never see any of the people who, you know, actually work, so who cleaned up the place? Shyte, back in the aftermath of WWII, those bombed out German cities, and the huge bombed out parts of London and other cities -- it took decades to get things cleared and rebuilt. Yet KL is all clean and up and running within, what? days, weeks? months? WTF? 

What about the Dothraki? Their horsies gonna swim back to the desert or will they team up with the Unsullied in Naath and take the place of the burned up mercenary Gold Company, putting out their killing skill for whomever can pay them? 

In the meantime, from where and with what has Arya funded one hella exploration ship, she who has not so far demonstrated that navigation and ship handling are among her acquired skill sets. Maybe Bronn can tax them to pay of the Iron Bank?

Nor am I particularly fond of Brienne writing a chronicle of redemption for Jaime in the Kings Guard Chronicle Book. "He died in service to his queen." WTF? And what about that mad, self-proclaimed queen Cersei anyway? Is she going down as martyr to the Mad Queen With a Dragon? Turning Jaimie's slayage of the king on its head, more than once, with Jon doing queen slayage may have felt clever, but it was cruel and more than historically misleading, particularly as Daenerys did do good things and Cersei never did a single decent deed in her life, and died whimpering. Or, perhaps that is the point, to go along with all those other phonied up documents like The Song of Ice and Fire filled with lies and holes of omission that show up conveniently meta, standing in for GRRM? 

My prediction that Bronn would be among the last First Men standing turned out correct, though I was worried for a while. He does seem exactly the right person to scheme a way to repay or wiggle out of Cersei's debts to the Iron Bank. He's currently the smartest and only smart one in the 6 kingdoms -- he was far far far away from the Mad Queen and her madness. He lived to pull down the tone to what in the GOTverse is considered comic, sharp wit and repartee. He'll be in that Wheeled Throne before long instead of Bran, you wait and see, as Bran will warg his way into Drogon, looking to find a mate to lay some dragon eggs, or, whatever. 

And wtf was Jon doing up north? Who are those people gamboling behind him as he rides off into the forest? OTOH, why hang out in Castle Black and make another Watch? What are they watching for? Unless, like cicadas, a whole buncha wights or walkers or whatevers are in the ground, waiting another few centuries to hatch and do what the eff? We never did learn what the eff those spiral sigels were all about did we? 

At least this is the final nail in the coffin of all those who thought Got was a romance show, and were certain that Sansa and Jon were madly in lurve and would rule together. 

And like the Book of the Song of ice and Fire that leaves out Tyrion entire -- and the Book of the Kingsguard -- the real story was never told, and we shall never know.

The show was such an incoherent mess it is impossible to know what would have happened with Sansa if they hadn't merged her arc with Jeyne Pooles story and made it such a toxic dump they tiptoed around.

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1 minute ago, darksellsword said:

Jeyne Pooles story

I am speaking only of the HBO series.  I don't give a damn about what's in the books. I am judging the narrative and the characters and the plots purely by what was given to us on screen.

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I think GRRM had best consider his position carefully for his legendarium. D&D just left him a gigantic steaming pile of drek he has to navigate around to keep even half the audience engaged for the next series. In fact, I think D&D did HBO and Martin dirty with the way things wrapped up. I cannot imagine A Song of Ice and Fire will end the same way, unless Martin wants to be burned in effigy for however long it remains part of the pop culture.

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Posted (edited)

My biigest issue with the finale is thzt the tried to makes guilty for supporting Daenerys's journey. I hated that speech that Tyrion gave about how she was really always evil because she killed her enemies in Essos. We just cheered for her and didn't see the truth in the face. She killed them with fire, dragons and with other means. Just because she didn't wield a sword, didnt do it herself and wasn't a man, it doesnt make her a crazy villain. What she did in KL is another story. But trying to make us feel COMPLICIT because we cheered when she crucified child murderers and killed slavers is fucking insane. Why all of the sudden they are aplying modern sensitivities to the story?  In the recently posted EW interview even Kit agrees, Dany was never a good person we never believed the signs. FFS! Emilia Clarke seems to be heartbroken and very conflicted about the morality of her character even 2 years later. Whatever her undoing in Westeros was and her fast descent into madness/villainy it does not negate her past actions. Daenerys Targaryen was a GOOD PERSON and made the world across the sea a better place despite the doom she caused in her homeland.

Edited by AlaerysTargaryen

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, OtherGlover said:

- I can see GRRM working things out so Bran is king, but that "election"scene was a farce. Nobody acknowledges that the second Dany died, Jon inherited the throne and became the rightful king. Whether he wants the responsibility or not.       

Not to mention, they illogically had Dany just voluntarily and rashly create another claim to the Iron Throne, that many would feel at least rivals her own, when she legitimized Gendry.:rolleyes:  Remember, Gendry's daddy took the throne away from Dany' daddy by right of conquest.  Many would enthusiastically rise to his cause if he chose to push his claim.  That was stupid and completely unnecessary. 

Quote

-So Bran, a Stark, will rule the Six, but doesn't care that his own homeland refuses his rule? The lords of the North don't see the potential benefit to a son of Ned on the throne? What it could mean for northern industry and trade? 

Yep.  So dumb.

Quote

- Dorne and The Iron Isles don't even know who this crippled kid is but they are fine with bending the knee? Even when his own realm, roughly a 1/3 of westeros' landmass want nothing to do with his kingship? All because he has a good story? 

:lmao:  Exactly!  Everyone would have declared independence the moment Sansa was allowed to.

Quote

-Finally, Bronn Blackwater Lord of the Reach. Bronn was a mildly entertaining side-character. Now I cannot accept any scene he is in because of the absurdity of his ending. The Reach with dozens of houses claiming to descend from the Gardener Kings is now going to accept some up-jumped sellsword as LP? Give me a break.

Agreed!  Now, let's see if we can make any sense of this?  Under what authority was Bronn promised Highgarden in the first place?  And how many times did power over ruling the Seven (or Six) Kingdoms change hands after that promise was made (hint: two times)?  And yet everyone simply chose to honor that ridiculous promise anyway?!  Yep, seems legit:rolleyes:

Edited by Prince of the North

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4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I am speaking only of the HBO series.  I don't give a damn about what's in the books. I am judging the narrative and the characters and the plots purely by what was given to us on screen.

I'm sorry I assumed you read the books and knew that when I referenced Jeyne Poole it was in reference to Ramsay presenting her to the world as Arya Stark and torturing and raping her, they gave that whole storyline to Sansa so that is relative to the shows narrative and character plot. They hacked that off from a completely unrelated character and ruined the character development George had planned for Sansa in the process. I wouldn't rule out Jon and Sansa marrying in the books, it will at the very least be discussed as an option.

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2 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Not to mention, they illogically had Dany just voluntarily and rashly created another claim to the Iron Throne that many would feel at least rivals her own when she legitimized Gendry.:rolleyes:  Remember, Gendry's daddy took the throne away from Dany' daddy by right of conquest.  Many would enthusiastically rise to his cause if he chose to push his claim.  That was stupid and completely unnecessary.

 

And yet while everyone was sitting there looking at each other for 5 minutes trying to figure out where to find a new king, no one (including Gendry himself) found this even worthy of mentioning...

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6 minutes ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

My biigest issue with the finale is thzt the tried to makes guilty for supporting Daenerys's journey. I hated that speech that Tyrion gave about how she was really always evil because she killed her enemies in Essos. We just cheered for her and didn't see the truth in the face. She killed them with fire, dragons and with other means. Just because she didn't wield a sword, didnt do it herself and wasn't a man, it doesnt make her a crazy villain. What she did in KL is another story. But trying to make us feel COMPLICIT because we cheered when she crucified child murderers and killed slavers is fucking insane. Why all of the sudden they are aplying modern sensitivities to the story?  In the recently posted EW interview even Kit agrees, Dany was never a good person we never believed the signs. FFS! Emilia Clarke seems to be heartbroken and very conflicted about the morality of her character even 2 years later. Whatever her undoing in Westeros was and her fast descent into madness/villainy it does not negate her past actions. Daenerys Targaryen was a GOOD PERSON and made the world across the sea a better place despite the doom she caused in her homeland.

George doesn't write good or evil characters. They all occupy a grey space, so people suggesting that Daenerys was always bad are mistaken. She ultimately made some terrible decisions but for Tyrion to suggest that they could've gleaned some inherent evil in her at any point in her life if they had only been paying attention is ridiculous and insult to the audience.

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13 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

I think GRRM had best consider his position carefully for his legendarium. D&D just left him a gigantic steaming pile of drek he has to navigate around to keep even half the audience engaged for the next series. In fact, I think D&D did HBO and Martin dirty with the way things wrapped up. I cannot imagine A Song of Ice and Fire will end the same way, unless Martin wants to be burned in effigy for however long it remains part of the pop culture.

This. He is in quite a corner especially with the "Bloodmoon" prequel and HBO. What he says next is going to be interesting to say the least.

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