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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

That's true. But Daenerys has Jorah, Barristan and later Missy to keep her in check. Even so, her high and mighty conviction that she's a god with a destiny comes through loud and clear, enabled by those same advisers...including Tyrion. She was in single minded pursuit of a throne she had no claim to, and shr's not doing it out of some benevolent motive--she is hell bent on vengeance. 

It's worth noting that she was always a sidenote to Varys' plans. Varys is going to put Aegon on the IT or die trying. He will hinder her in any way he can.

You are referring though to the books here, and Dany's arc is still in development. So what's the use using the book arguments when they are not completed?

Edited by Nightwish

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1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

When was that mentioned in the show?

So dragons are capable of high-level deductive reasoning and emotional intelligence but they can't seem to be able to fly out of harm's way

Even pigeons know how to move out of the way when something or someone comes at them.

I actually think Peter Dinklage as Tyrion said that: "Some maesters believe they are more clever than men" in season 6, when he had just met them and was talking either to the dragons in the dungeon or to Varys, Missandei and/or Grey Worm. I'm 80 % sure.

And just because they are very intelligent it does not mean that they have perfect eyesight or are 100 % focused all the time. Even a human genius could be caught off-guard while thinking about something else. So I don't think that the dragons failing to notice the scorpions was them being unintelligent; I think it was them being temporarily unfocused, having bad eyesight, or something else.

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3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

When was that mentioned in the show?

So dragons are capable of high-level deductive reasoning and emotional intelligence but they can't seem to be able to fly out of harm's way

Even pigeons know how to move out of the way when something or someone comes at them.

It was clearly shown in the show in the episode 6. Other than that GRRM is on the record on metalevel, if that is what you need. It is somewhere in the Citadel of this site on the So Spake Martin - section.

There is a lot of denial going on, I guess it's natural. People are disappointed with the ending and many have been disappointed with the show for quite a while, myself included. But some things are what they are.

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20 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

And why the fuck are we supposed to like Starks after proving themselves super traitors and ungrateful? Why?

For the simple reason that they are the Starks. Who somehow are above morals and laws and judgement and criticism because who doesn’t love the Starks? Especially if they are female Starks. 

Arya’s like... I know a killer when I see one. You do, girlfriend? Like when you look in the mirror? Jesus. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

It was clearly shown in the show in the episode 6. Other than that GRRM is on the record on metalevel, if that is what you need. It is somewhere in the Citadel of this site on the So Spake Martin - section.

There is a lot of denial going on, I guess it's natural. People are disappointed with the ending and many have been disappointed with the show for quite a while, myself included. But some things are what they are.

I think you are confusing denial with dissatisfaction.

The ending is disappointing in that it was thrown together and poorly planned. It's not disappointing because we didn't get what we want.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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9 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

You are referring though to the books here, and Dany's arc is still in development. So what's the use using the book arguments when they are not completed?

But she did almost exactly the same in the show--burning the khals was utterly horrific and I don't know how anyone justified that at the time, either. It should have been seen then for what it was: an unspeakable atrocity, aided and abetted by Jorah who should have stopped her.

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Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think you are confusing denial with dissatisfaction.

The ending is disappointing in that it was thrown together.

No. I am specifically not confusing them. I think people are not willing to look at the possible clever points - such as what Drogon might have done, but who knows with D&D - because the show itself went to shit a few seasons ago and even the general populace noticed this season.

Denial is things like denying the dragons are intelligent, even if there is the word of the person who built the world saying so; because that leads to a small chance that D&D did that on purpose. If they did, it was pretty good. Even better if it started at the door and Drogon let Jon past knowing what he was going to do, because he must.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

For the simple reason that they are the Starks. Who somehow are above morals and laws and judgement and criticism because who doesn’t love the Starks? Especially if they are female Starks. 

Arya’s like... I know a killer when I see one. You do, girlfriend? Like when you look in the mirror? Jesus. 

The Starks are far from perfect. Arya is permanently damaged and a "dark heart". Bran has the potential to be a villain as well. Sansa is a manipulative, scheming witch who just used all the lessons she learned from Cersei and LF to get herself crowned Queen in the North.

Edited by Ice Queen

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1 minute ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

No. I am specifically not confusing them. I think people are not willing to look at the possible clever points - such as what Drogon might have done, but who knows with D&D - because the show itself went to shit a few seasons ago and even the general populace noticed this season.

Denial is things like denying the dragons are intelligent, even if there is the word of the person who built the world saying so; because that leads to a small chance that D&D did that on purpose. If they did, it was pretty good. Even better if it started at the door and Drogon let Jon past knowing what he was going to do, because he must.

But where is the writing that should be supporting the bold?

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7 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

For the simple reason that they are the Starks. Who somehow are above morals and laws and judgement and criticism because who doesn’t love the Starks? Especially if they are female Starks. 

Arya’s like... I know a killer when I see one. You do, girlfriend? Like when you look in the mirror? Jesus. 

I have no idea why jon doesn t hate sansa after she betrayed him...

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Just now, divica said:

I have no idea why jon doesn t hate sansa after she betrayed him...

Jon is a blind fool.

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Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

But where is the writing that should be supporting the bold?

In the Citadel in the So spake Martin, as I said. It's a big section without a search function - but it is there. He compared his dragons with Tolkien's. He said something along the lines of dragons being intelligent but unable to speak and thus they won't be discussing with people unlike Tolkien's dragons. Surely you don't think I am flat out lying?

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4 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

But she did almost exactly the same in the show--burning the khals was utterly horrific and I don't know how anyone justified that at the time, either. It should have been seen then for what it was: an unspeakable atrocity, aided and abetted by Jorah who should have stopped her.

She hasn't burned any Khals in the books, also her story is different, Tyrion hasn't reached her yet, Varys supports Aegon, and she managed to get her dragon of the arena saving people. No, it is not the same. 

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

I have no idea why jon doesn t hate sansa after she betrayed him...

Stupidity, it's unbeatable.

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

I have no idea why jon doesn t hate sansa after she betrayed him...

Because she was right? Because she "betrayed him" to put him on the throne. Which would have been pretty damn wise in hind sight?

2 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

Jon is a blind fool.

Nah. He is just a bit straight forward like his Uncle he thought was his dad.

And a lof ot the hate on Sansa is just blind hate. She did pretty well for herself and her people in a world that was not built to be a fairy tale or black and white. If it was, Ned would have his head. It isn't, Sansa learned to play and won. Some people just can't deal with it.

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1 minute ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

In the Citadel in the So spake Martin, as I said. It's a big section without a search function - but it is there. He compared his dragons with Tolkien's. He said something along the lines of dragons being intelligent but unable to speak and thus they won't be discussing with people unlike Tolkien's dragons. Surely you don't think I am flat out lying?

No, of course I don't think you're lying. I wasn't being specific enough.

Where is the writing that supports the bold part in the show? Because, in discussing the merits of the show's plot and character development (can't talk about the themes because themes are like tricks...just for kids), the show's writing should support the fact that dragons are highly intelligent but unable to speak.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

For the simple reason that they are the Starks. Who somehow are above morals and laws and judgement and criticism because who doesn’t love the Starks? Especially if they are female Starks. 

Arya’s like... I know a killer when I see one. You do, girlfriend? Like when you look in the mirror? Jesus. 

They could have used all of this biased plot armor nonsense, many seasons before saving us the drama of watching all this meaningless material about the WW and Jon's resurrection. 

Edited by Nightwish

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5 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

She hasn't burned any Khals in the books, also her story is different, Tyrion hasn't reached her yet, Varys supports Aegon, and she managed to get her dragon of the arena saving people. No, it is not the same. 

We're talking about the show as you pointed out. She burned the khals in the show. And she had Jorah. 

It's amazing to me the lengths people are going to to defend her. Do you do this in real life?

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2 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Because she was right? Because she "betrayed him" to put him on the throne.

Jon could not sit on the throne without either assassinating Daenerys or fighting a war against her and her dragons, which would most likely have ended with his death... Sansa wasn't doing him any favor...

She was trying to either have him kill the woman he loved, or to be killed by her... that's not nice...

And Sansa didn't even know Dany would turn a crazy pyromaniac... as far as she knew she was sane and helpful...

2 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

And a lof ot the hate on Sansa is just blind hate. She did pretty well for herself and her people in a world that was not built to be a fairy tale or black and white. If it was, Ned would have his head. It isn't, Sansa learned to play and won. Some people just can't deal with it.

The problem is, what she got, she did from her brothers's loss. Nice sister, she is...

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