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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

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Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

No, of course I don't think you're lying. I wasn't being specific enough.

Where is the writing that supports the bold part in the show? Because, in discussing the merits of the show's plot and character development (can't talk about the themes because themes are like tricks...just for kids), the show's writing should support the fact that dragons are highly intelligent but unable to speak.

Oh sorry. The Tyrion quote was from the show, I believe - some maesters thinking dragons are even more intelligent than men, but all thinking they are very intelligent. And in the end it doesn't matter. Even without that quote the dragons in this fantasy world are intelligent and if the show watchers find it out in the last episode, so what? (It is bad writing unless it is intentional, but hell - most of the show has been bad writing since season 4)

The thing is - it is plausible that Drogon knew that Jon had to kill Dany and that afterwards he felt that Jon was in mourning as much as he was and; steered his rage at the throne instead of. It is possible but far fetched that Drogon understood even more and let Jon pass and it was not even anger but rather a task to burn the throne.

Some people on the internet are saying that Drogon burned the city down last episode - which as far as I could make out was hours ago at most - and suddenly he has this moral and understands Dany needs to be stopped. But Dragons are bind to the will of their riders so the change too, is quite plausible.

Was it that? Who knows with D&D. But it certainly is not impossible and really if anything it is almost too clever for the show since many seasons ago.

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15 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

But she did almost exactly the same in the show--burning the khals was utterly horrific and I don't know how anyone justified that at the time, either. It should have been seen then for what it was: an unspeakable atrocity, aided and abetted by Jorah who should have stopped her.

I was horrific, I agree. But the show runners went out of their way to show it as empowering, that’s how strong badass women roll, yay! :ack:

That was the year we got all those pathetic magazine covers - yeah EWwwww, I’m looking at you most of all - with the female characters and the caption Women on Top or some such rubbish. Because that’s what they did, even though Dany’s sudden and unearned descent into madness was already the plan. Who cares about character development or being coherent, when you can pull the rug from under everyone’s feet because “OMFG SO SHOCKING!”. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Because she was right? Because she "betrayed him" to put him on the throne. Which would have been pretty damn wise in hind sight?

Nah. He is just a bit straight forward like his Uncle he thought was his dad.

And a lof ot the hate on Sansa is just blind hate. She did pretty well for herself and her people in a world that was not built to be a fairy tale or black and white. If it was, Ned would have his head. It isn't, Sansa learned to play and won. Some people just can't deal with it.

Quote

Discussion of why people disliked something is permitted, but remember the topic at hand -- this is not a debate thread, it's a discussion thread specifically about episode details or events that posters disliked.

 

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5 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Because she was right? Because she "betrayed him" to put him on the throne. Which would have been pretty damn wise in hind sight?

Nah. He is just a bit straight forward like his Uncle he thought was his dad.

And a lof ot the hate on Sansa is just blind hate. She did pretty well for herself and her people in a world that was not built to be a fairy tale or black and white. If it was, Ned would have his head. It isn't, Sansa learned to play and won. Some people just can't deal with it.

 Yes some people can't deal with ungrateful traitors being rewarded, especially when it comes from characters that didn't move their little finger and they didn't risk anything. 

Not built to be fairy tale? With a tree for a King :lmao:?

Ok anymore jokes? 

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1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

How should they care when Sansa is presented as an ungrateful bitch that plots how to kill the only person that came to her rescue?

Arya is a little arrogant super ninja who just supports Sansa without reason? And says "we don't need allies?" Great dear move on to a cave then. 

And Jon is a complete loser all the time manipulated by his sisters? 

 

The Starks in a nutshell this season.

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was horrific, I agree. But the show runners went out of their way to show it as empowering, that’s how strong badass women roll, yay! :ack:

That was the year we got all those pathetic magazine covers - yeah EWwwww, I’m looking at you most of all - with the female characters and the caption Women on Top or some such rubbish. Because that’s what they did, even though Dany’s sudden and unearned descent into madness was already the plan. Who cares about character development or being coherent, when you can pull the rug from under everyone’s feet because “OMFG SO SHOCKING!”. 

 

D&D saying that there are exemples for danny to become a full psycho is the same as they trying to use mel's visions with arya in s3 as foreshadowing that she would kill the NK.

They are both idiotic… IT wasn t the objectives of the scenes they filmed at the time… They can t return to the scene years later and chage its tone.

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8 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

We're talking about the show as you pointed out. She burned the khals in the show. And she had Jorah. 

It's amazing to me the lengths people are going to to defend her. Do you do this in real life?

It's amazing to me the lengths people are going to bash her. Do you do this in real life?

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10 minutes ago, Adam Targaryen said:

I do think that the dragons are at least as smart as border collies, the most intelligent breed of dog, in the show. They might be even more clever. Some maesters believe that they are even smarter than men - of course, if they are, it's a different kind of intelligence, and intelligence isn't the same thing as for example understanding human languages and so forth. But yes, I do think that the dragons have a relatively high intelligence, and especially a high intuition and emotional analytical ability, so that they see and analyse and feel and understand most of what is going on with the humans, even if they can't understand what everyone is saying all the time. So yes, I think that Drogon could understand that the Iron Throne was the source for Daenerys' madness and that Jon was sorry for having killed her and so forth... Otherwise I don't think Drogon would have burnt down the Iron Throne. One could of course claim that he did that just because D&D are idiots and nothing made sense but I really do think that he did it for a reason and that it can be explained via Drogon's feelings and thoughts.

"x" is more intelligent than "y" turns out to be a very difficult assessment to make.  In humans IQ tests turn out to be almost useless for measuring intelligence.   In animals standard "intelligence" tests like the ability to identify themselves in a mirror are starting to crack, eg dog's can't do this but that may be more related to their use of smell more then sight in identifying individuals.  It turns out when you perform similar tests with smell they do identify their own smell indicating they do have a sense of "self". 

 

In many cases it all comes down to the test you use and I expect dragons would not score highly in the tests that rank border collies as the most intelligent dog, as these center around how quickly they can learn and follow new instructions.  The problem here is what if the animal understands perfectly well what you are telling it to do and just isn't inclined to do it?  I imagine dragons would fall into the category of animals that are not particularly inclined to do what they are told, and therefor would not do well in tests related to learning instructions

 

Are dragons as intelligent as dogs?  It would probably depend on the test, but I lean towards no.  While they are large and therefor potential have a large cerebral cortex dragons do not really fit the profile of intelligent animals.  They do not see like animals suited for large social groups now do they require a lot of intelligence to find a meal.  Dogs, on the other hand may be even more intelligent than we realize.  For example many facial expressions have been identified in dogs, but it turns out that when there are no people around they only use a few of them.  IOW these expressions are not "natural" or subconscious behaviors, rather, it appears they use them as a form of language to communicate with humans.

 

Ultimately though, this is fantasy so dragons are exactly as smart as GRRM decides they are.  As to what he's decided, I'm not sure we really know.  That some maesters believe them to be very intelligent doesn't mean they are.  They may simply be unreliable or perhaps are basing their opinions on work written to butter up Targaryans or Valyria. 

 

Anyway.  Overall I didn't like the scene, it seemed to contrived based on the level of reasoning wev'e actually seen from the dragons even if they were really supposed to be capable of it all along. 

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I don't know why anyone expected anything different. D&D are hacks and the show's "original" "writing" has pretty much always been awful with few to no exceptions. Glad to see them finally go even further off the deep end and finally see the show that brought us "With those big balls of yours, how fast can you run?" rightly criticized on its way into the garbage disposal. Sansa interrupting Edmure was beyond idiotic and probably barely even cracks the top 10 dumbest things about this ridiculous finale. Drogon burning the Iron Throne was a ridiculous work of fanfiction. Small Council meeting framed as comic relief feat. Bronn somehow as Master of Coin.... so much that was ridiculous here.

 

If Drogon has the level of self-awareness to realize Dany was bad and deserved to die why the fuck was he obeying her last week.

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They could have made Jon survive Drogon's fiery breath because Targaryen are fireproof, apparently...

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So, they kill one of Dany's friends and she goes Hitler on every innocent child and woman.

They kill Drogons mother, a fire breathing beast, and he does the most sensible thing of all the characters in this show and burns the throne and doesn't harm anyone else in that instance.

The more you think about this show, the more IQ points you drop. And if you really love this season, congratulations, you never had any to lose anyway.

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16 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Now our watch has ended. 

THANK GOD.

what matters is that we survived
we are that burned guy walking through the streets of KL with the city representing the destruction of the series.

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7 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

They kill Drogons mother, a fire breathing beast, and he does the most sensible thing of all the characters in this show and burns the throne and doesn't harm anyone else in that instance.

"Don't hate the player; hate the game."

Truly, expectations have been subverted when it takes a dragon to make this statement. And so artfully.

 

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Outside of any story related problems, I'm a little nauseated by the fact that Dany was murdered by her lover.

 

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R+L=J.

All the beautiful buildup, puzzling the pieces together and the satisfaction of that. All the importance of him being a Stark and a Targaryen, and all the epic directions they could have taken this. Instead, his Targaryen side was completely and utterly useless. It didn't even matter a tiny bit.A lot of TV shows would kill to have a foundation that strong, and D&D have completely shit on it, burned it down and pissed on it.

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1 hour ago, Adam Targaryen said:

I completely agree. The episode was absolutely absurd. But I can maybe answer ONE of your questions, which I do think makes sense in this episode where almost nothing else does.

I think that Drogon let Jon live because - as someone else here on the forum or somewhere else on the Internet said - Drogon realised that Jon was not Daenerys' true enemy, her true enemy was the Iron Throne, which drove her mad with power. So therefore Drogon destroyed the Iron Throne instead. And also I think Drogon understood that Jon was a good man after all and finally Jon is after all the last Targaryen, so Drogon probably didn't want to kill him even despite the fact that he killed Daenerys... But yeah, I understand if you don't accept that as an answer and I will not defend this episode lol.

I interpreted as "if she won't have it, no one else will"

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10 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

R+L=J.

All the beautiful buildup, puzzling the pieces together and the satisfaction of that. All the importance of him being a Stark and a Targaryen, and all the epic directions they could have taken this. Instead, his Targaryen side was completely and utterly useless. It didn't even matter a tiny bit.A lot of TV shows would kill to have a foundation that strong, and D&D have completely shit on it, burned it down and pissed on it.

The final insult is that he's the last Targaryen (only half too), joined the NW again and won't have children. So the Targaryen line will die with him.

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4 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

 

:lmao:  Exactly!  Everyone would have declared independence the moment Sansa was allowed to.

 

See I was actually hopeful for that outcome when Drogon melted the Iron Throne. To me it was the most logical conclusion (for the show story line). Its funny Dany talks about breaking the wheel and yet her family was one of the biggest "wheels" in Westeros. The Targs came in crushed all the kingdoms into submission. Two ruling families were wiped out and a third, the Durrandons, were destroyed in the male line. King Durrandon's daughter was forced to marry a Targ bastard and their words and sigil co-opted by this Baratheon. 

The Targ rule brought with it 300 years of war and submission. Now I'm not saying that everything was perfect for the 1000s of years before Targ rule. However, from what little history we do know, the North was largely stabilized behind Stark rule. The Vale and Dorne lived behind natural barriers. The Reach was rich and flourishing with perhaps the oldest line of kings on the continent. Yes there were border wars (North and Vale over the Sisters, Stormlands and Reach over the Marches) and someone would have to do something about the Hoares eventually, but the realms had integrated new cultures (Andal invasion, Rhoynar migration) and religions (The Seven) and for the most part appears stable at the time of Aegon's landing. Without their Targ overlords and their dragons why shouldn't these Kingdoms revert to their previous state.

Especially because Aegon and his descendants did little to harbor any sense of national unity. Borders remained the same, regional cultures and religions unchanged. Northmen were Northmen and Dornishmen were Dornishmen. They weren't Seven Kingdomers or Iron Throners. Ned, who was raised in the Eyrie sees himself as strictly northern and his own children appear to have never made it much further south than White Harbor. The Iron Islanders with their thralls have a form a slavery that is strictly forbidden throughout the rest of the kingdom.

So when the show arrived at this election scene I was shocked that nobody thought to bring up that maybe they didn't need an all-powerful supreme overlord. Especially one who had absolutely no claim and who's first act as supreme overlord was to grant his sisters kingdom independence. They suggested democracy (an admirable idea but still several major scientific breakthroughs away from being a serious option), but failed to realize what is sitting right in front of them. What even Drogon saw, that without the Targs there is no need for the Seven Kingdoms or the Iron Throne.

The crownlands could have been absorbed into the River and Stormlands. While treatise could have been signed and I actually think an independent Kings Landing with a council made up of nobles from the different realms, maesters, and septons helping to adjudicate disputes between the Kingdoms would be much more plausible then what we got. Hell, it's also surprising that D&D passed on the opportunity to make Bronn King of the Reach not just LP.         

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