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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

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1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

The water bottle.  Surely someone has brought up the water bottle.  Coupled with the Starbucks cup of last week,  D&Ds indifference to the viewer is totally insulting.

How does this happen over and over again on such a high profile show with such a large budget? I don’t care how much the actors and showrunners and all involved cry about how hard they worked, such sloppiness should be unacceptable in such a large production. This just goes to show how little the producers cared about the show in the end.

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Okay then. Let’s get this off muh chest. 

All the characters killed off this episode: Bran, Jon, Davos, Brienne, Tyrion, GreyWorm, Sam. And yes, Daenerys too. Literally everybody who opened their mouths, though admittedly dialogue wasn’t really a thing this season. Game of thrones is just too cool for that shit. 

All the characters not killed off this episode: Ghost?

And we really know nothing about Martha. 

All the things not wrong about this episode: most plotpoints with three exceptions (Jon’s fate, King Bran, the wildlings) 

All the things wrong about this episode: the execution of each and every scene (okay, I can name maybe two exceptions) 

It also really really really bothered me that they constantly tried to mirror the Return of the King. As if this fucking show is worthy of even licking the ground the LOTR trilogy walks on. 

But the absolute worst thing about this finale was still a tossup between the grotesque double tone and the ghastly structure. 

Starting with the second. Jon spent less time considering the murder of muh kween than Tyrion did staring sadly into the camera while waking, sitting, standing or lying down. Hell, Jon spent less time considering the murder of muh kween than Tyrion did talking about himself. The first 40 minutes covered one storyline and about three hours. The second 40 minutes covered anything between 2-6 months and at least six different storylines. The first 40 minutes felt like dark, bittersweet intense drama. The second 40 minutes were downright comedy/parody sprinkled with the leftovers of dark bittersweet drama that shifted into majesty climax to the rhythm of Ramin Djawadi’s genius. These were two completely different episodes (possibly with a third inbetween that didn’t make the cut room), linked by one cut that took us from a sad and mediocre finale to a pathetic, Z class one in 2 seconds. 

The scenes’ density were polarized to the extreme. One scene we spent 5 minutes watching  Tyrion walk through the city silently, the other Bran was elected King in 5 minutes. The same amount of screen time was spent on literally nothing at all as on major plotpoints that changed the entire setting of the story. 

This polarity could be detected in the tone of the scenes too. We cut from Edmure Tully and Sansa delivering sitcom humor to Jon being an emotional wreck, then back to democracy humor and onto heartfelt Stark goodbye, and back to small council parody, before bittersweet night’s watch reunion. Can somebody please make up their minds about what I am supposed to feel? Or do you honestly expect me to laugh at Edmure Tully not a full 10  minutes after the main protagonist of 8 years murdered the other main protagonist of 7.5 years and a dragon dramatically destroyed the symbol of the entire universe. How? How am I expected to make that emotional shift in the span of (I should check the exact time) 5-10 minutes? And then you keep dragging me back and forth between comedy and emotional drama. Why?

 

 

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33 minutes ago, LokisRaider said:

To add to that it was offered, because all the people are gone and the lands are open for the taking.

Then a couple scenes later, Bronn is Lord of Highgarden the most profitable land left in the seven kingdoms and is in good shape to provide food and money to the capital...

Highgarden is in control of the Reach. So which is it, broken and empty or populated and prosperous?

Not keeping the story consistent from episode to episode or even scene to scene has been what D&D do best.

That reminds me.........

....isn't Tyrion Lord of Casterly Rock?  I feel like that's still a thing.

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4 minutes ago, dannyk65 said:

That reminds me.........

....isn't Tyrion Lord of Casterly Rock?  I feel like that's still a thing.

And isn’t he still married to Sansa? Not a peep about that either. Oh well, that’s sooooo series 3. I mean, they can’t remember or address what they did in the previous episode, how can they be expected to remember something from YEARS ago? I know, I’m such an arsehole, to even think about shit like this. 

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Ice Queen said:

Why are people still in denial about the fact she's been a psychopath since the beginning? She didn't need Bran's "guidance" to send her over the edge, only her overly inflated ego and sense of self-importance.

Thats not how the show portrayed it at all. her being psychopathic from the start that is (Just to be clear). Its the reason so many were lost as to why she just flipped. She showed a propensity towards cruelty against her enemies throughout the series but not towards innocents. Just because you're ego is huge doesn't mean your going to burn a city and its inhabitants to the ground under a white flag. Thats way beyond anything Dany showed up to that point. You may have had some special insight but most people had no clue she would flip like that because the show told them otherwise.  

Edited by ramla

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

This was a great and fun read, thank you. 

 

I really enjoyed this article as well.  This early portion of the article was one of my favs:

..........Most shows absolutely overstay their welcome—just look at the last nearly two decades of The Simpsons. But Game of Thrones was different. It had to be long. It needed to be slow, and thoughtful, and most importantly take its time.

So to think that Benioff and Weiss wanted to do this in the 13 episodes that comprised Seasons Seven and Eight is ludicrous. And as any fan of this series could have predicted at the time, it didn't work

That's why Seasons Seven and Eight felt so ridiculously rushed. That's why people started teleporting, why once complex characters suddenly became flat, vanished altogether, or morphed into nothing but convenient Deus Ex Machina, or why producers literally left coffee cups and water bottles in shots. Those prop errors are the perfect metaphor for these last two seasons, where no one slowed down to think about the product they were putting out. No one stopped to consider these beloved character arcs or the sheer logic of the narrative. Instead Benioff and Weiss wanted bigger battles! They wanted spectacle not story.

Now rated 4.5 by 154,000 people on IMDB.

I can remember when the Rant & Rave threads first came out, I was still enjoying the show, and thought you were all a bit eccentric.  Then I found myself increasingly making excuses for the show, as recently as last weekend.  Now, at the end, I realise you were right.

I still love many of the actors' performances, the set pieces, individual scenes, but now realise that the whole thing has been becoming increasingly incoherent from Season 5, improved in Season 6, but really ran off the rails from Season 7.  The teleportation, the wild shifts in character, the facts that are established in one episode only to be contradicted in another, the preference for shock over character development, and finally the  butchery (metaphorically) of characters who we've grown to love from the books and earlier seasons.

It hurts us, it hurts us.

Edited by SeanF

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1 minute ago, ramla said:

Thats not how the show portrayed it at all. her being psychopathic that is (Just to be clear). Its the reason so many were lost as to why she just flipped. She showed a propensity towards cruelty against her enemies throughout the series but not towards innocents. Just because you're ego is huge doesn't mean your going to burn a city and its inhabitants to the ground under a white flag. Thats way beyond anything Dany showed up to that point. You may have had some special insight but most people had no clue she would flip like that because the show told them otherwise.  

Totally agree with this.

Having her flip from tendencies of violence w/ enemies, never harms innocents, to suddenly GENOCIDE, BITCHES! is just not the same character.  It's the assassination of a character to move the plot along.  Having the Grey Worm moment where he began whacking surrendering enemies in the street in a fit of rage, then in the next episode stating it was pre-planned just makes Dany's "flipping" not really spontaneous at all.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, ramla said:

Thats not how the show portrayed it at all. her being psychopathic that is (Just to be clear). Its the reason so many were lost as to why she just flipped. She showed a propensity towards cruelty against her enemies throughout the series but not towards innocents. Just because you're ego is huge doesn't mean your going to burn a city and its inhabitants to the ground under a white flag. Thats way beyond anything Dany showed up to that point. You may have had some special insight but most people had no clue she would flip like that because the show told them otherwise.  

I was prepared to defend it (artistically, not morally)  on the ground that it was an act of terror designed to send a message to anyone who might challenge her.  People raised the Nagasaki bombing as a comparison.  Alternatively, I was willing to argue that it simply shows how horrible medieval warfare is, when a city is taken.  But, really it doesn't work.

She had won, fairly easily.  She might very well have allowed her soldiers to plunder the city, but there's not much reason to start incinerating your taxpayers who have no intention of fighting you.  As others have suggested, it would have been far more plausible to have the burning go down by accident, due to a botched surrender, or caches of wildfire going off as she strafed the walls.

So, she either has to have gone cray cray (because all Targaryens do) or she did it for the evulz.  Either way, D & D needed an excuse for Jon to stab her through the heart, while telling her he loved her, butchering both characters simultaneously.

 

Edited by SeanF

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7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She had won, fairly easily.  She might very well have allowed her soldiers to plunder the city, but there's not much reason to start incinerating your taxpayers who have no intention of fighting you.  As others have suggested, it would have been far more plausible to have the burning go down by accident, due to a botched surrender, or caches of wildfire going off as she strafed the walls.

Yes, yes, yes. And KL burning in some horrible mishap would make more sense. But then there’s no shock, no turning Dany into a mad bloodthirsty nutjob who had to be put down. 

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

So, she either has to have gone cray cray (because all Targaryens do) or she did it for the evulz.  Either way, D & D needed an excuse for Jon to stab her through the heart, while telling her he loved her, butchering both characters simultaneously.

They did it the way they did it for the shock, and because they’re awful writers w/ no imagination and a frat boy mentality. And yes, they butchered both 

Jon and Dany, that scene is HORRIBLE and repulsive. Also worthy of mention is the fact that every single character was destroyed in the wake of the Ds failure to write a fucking story. 

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So one of Sansa's main reasons to get the Norths independence (by the way I don't dislike this happening, just the how it happened) was because they sacrificed tens of thousands in the shortest night battle.

- Sansa who kept an army of the Vale secret and let thousands of Northmen get slaughtered because she is "super smart" and wanted to surprise everyone with the fresh army.

- The Vale army who also fought during the battle of the short night and lost tens of thousands (who knows how many troops were lost in any army with what the show does, but if Sansa can make up numbers so can I) of troops during the battle defending Winterfell, the North and Westeros. 

- So shouldn't the Vale be worthy of their own independence for sacrificing their men to not only liberate the North from Ramsay but help in the battle against the undead?

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Now rated 4.5 by 154,000 people on IMDB.

I can remember when the Rant & Rave threads first came out, I was still enjoying the show, and thought you were all a bit eccentric.  Then I found myself increasingly making excuses for the show, as recently as last weekend.  Now, at the end, I realise you were right.

I still love many of the actors' performances, the set pieces, individual scenes, but now realise that the whole thing has been becoming increasingly incoherent from Season 5, improved in Season 6, but really ran off the rails from Season 7.  The teleportation, the wild shifts in character, the facts that are established in one episode only to be contradicted in another, the preference for shock over character development, and finally the  butchery (metaphorically) of characters who we've grown to love from the books and earlier seasons.

It hurts us, it hurts us.

That's interesting!  I think everyone's "journey" through their impressions of GoT is different and thanks for sharing yours.  For me, I felt things were going downhill in season 4 but I still had faith...until that utterly illogical and contrived Brienne-Hound fight:rolleyes:  My faith in the show simply...shattered at that point.  Now, when people ask my impression of GoT, I usually give them some variation of "It's a huge, steaming pile of gorgeous nonsense".  Oh, what might have been:frown5: 

17 minutes ago, LokisRaider said:

So one of Sansa's main reasons to get the Norths independence (by the way I don't dislike this happening, just the how it happened) was because they sacrificed tens of thousands in the shortest night battle.

- Sansa who kept an army of the Vale secret and let thousands of Northmen get slaughtered because she is "super smart" and wanted to surprise everyone with the fresh army.

- The Vale army who also fought during the battle of the short night and lost tens of thousands (who knows how many troops were lost in any army with what the show does, but if Sansa can make up numbers so can I) of troops during the battle defending Winterfell, the North and Westeros. 

- So shouldn't the Vale be worthy of their own independence for sacrificing their men to not only liberate the North from Ramsay but help in the battle against the undead?

Yep.  It's been said before but I'll say it again: the moment the North was allowed to simply declare independence, everyone would have!:rolleyes:

Edited by Prince of the North

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Posted (edited)

The same ending as the show?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

- This is a dire reading.

Different?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

- A much less dire reading.

Quote

How will it all end? I hear people asking.   The same ending as the show?  Different?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

 

Edited by Moondancer

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3 minutes ago, Moondancer said:

The same ending as the show?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

- This is a dire reading.

Different?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

- A much less dire reading.

 

Personaly, I think we have to wait for winds. But if bran ends up as king why did he spend these last 2 books showing us how danny, jon, cersei and euron rule?

So that at the end he choses someone we have no idea how he would rule?

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Does it matter that Brienne fabricated Jamie's story? No Brienne's entries in the White Book are gonna be al blurred and illegible anyway, as apparently she's too dumb to realize you need to let the ink dry before you flip the page and write on the back. :-)

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5 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Who the hell is Grey Worm to have a say in matters of ruling of the Seven Kingdoms, and the audacity to decide for Jon freaking Snow's fate? This is something that really pissed me off.

 

I felt the same way. From everyone else's perspective (except, I guess, for Yara, who forgot she was promised independence...and the new Dorne guy was a cardboard cutout, so who knows what he thinks), Jon is the true king and saved the realm from a usurper who had just incinerated the largest city in Westeros along with its civilian populace...so why is the usurper's military leader (who would be isolated in a city that was just turned to ash at this point) in a position to dictate anything except exchanging his prisoners for free passage to Essos?

It really bothered me that

1) Someone didn't stand up and give a speech to the effect that "We already have a king. His name is Aegon Targaryen, the Sixth of His Name, blah blah, now release him to us or face the full fury of the Seven Kingdoms." (Dick joke optional) Everyone who seemed to think Jon had the best claim and was such a superior choice to sit on the throne an episode and a half ago suddenly threw him under the bus really quickly, and it's hard to tell if this was because Bran and/or Sansa really didn't care about him and wanted the power for themselves all along, or just another example of lazy D&D writing...

2) In any case, there was zero reason not to bring Jon back from his exile the instant Grey Worm's ships disappeared on the horizon...it's not like he's going to be coming back to ensure the sentence was carried out as agreed upon.

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In GOT seasons 1-4, that great council scene would have been spaced over 3 or 4 episodes to see some intrigue, and get a sense of what the issues at play were, and then the final council scene would be for some good dialogue and resolution.  But GOT season 8, they did it all in 5 minutes without even introducing some of the people at the meeting, and it's being run by a dude in chains under arrest for treason, LOL.  Everyone's armies are back to pre-war levels.  People only care about what the plot demands, so Sansa cares about independence but no one else does, and so on.

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25 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

.....Yep.  It's been said before but I'll say it again: the moment the North was allowed to simply declare independence, everyone would have!:rolleyes:

How this Sansa demand for Northern independence was allowed into the scene is beyond me. BEYOND ME. Anybody watching a rehearsal would point out that if one country was going to get independence, then they would ALL want it.  They left it in because if the director doesn't notice the water bottles, why would he/she notice the obvious. 

 And did it strike anybody else that each representative seemed to get one vote at the council but the Starks got 3 votes.  And why was that?

Too stoopid.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, The Prince of Porne said:

 

I felt the same way. From everyone else's perspective (except, I guess, for Yara, who forgot she was promised independence...and the new Dorne guy was a cardboard cutout, so who knows what he thinks), Jon is the true king and saved the realm from a usurper who had just incinerated the largest city in Westeros along with its civilian populace...so why is the usurper's military leader (who would be isolated in a city that was just turned to ash at this point) in a position to dictate anything except exchanging his prisoners for free passage to Essos?

It really bothered me that

1) Someone didn't stand up and give a speech to the effect that "We already have a king. His name is Aegon Targaryen, the Sixth of His Name, blah blah, now release him to us or face the full fury of the Seven Kingdoms." (Dick joke optional) Everyone who seemed to think Jon had the best claim and was such a superior choice to sit on the throne an episode and a half ago suddenly threw him under the bus really quickly, and it's hard to tell if this was because Bran and/or Sansa really didn't care about him and wanted the power for themselves all along, or just another example of lazy D&D writing...

2) In any case, there was zero reason not to bring Jon back from his exile the instant Grey Worm's ships disappeared on the horizon...it's not like he's going to be coming back to ensure the sentence was carried out as agreed upon.

Yes for everything you wrote, especially point two.

Nah, this was just a nonsense show, there really isn't need to analyze why Sansa and Bran didn't try harder to put him on the throne instead of merely sending him to the Wall again. Did they want to grab power? Probably no and yes at the same time, there aren't really any answers, so suit yourself and interpret it however you please.

Edited by The Sunland Lord

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