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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

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23 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Yeah, that's likely going to be the case with Arianne it looks like, it's far subtler and more realistic when you have lack of correct information and different perceptions affecting the story.

I expect that throughout TWOW, increasingly bad rumours about Dany will be filtering through to Westeros, from refugees crossing the Narrow Sea.  Then, it will entirely make sense for people to worry about whether they can make an alliance with her.

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So, the show put the Isle of Faces in the opening, yes?

Was it ever even mentioned in season 8?

 

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With Bran, they had no clue as to what they wanted to say/do about/with his character. I’m still terribly confused as to the message they were sending with King Bran.

- If he could see the future and could have prevented the suffering and deaths of thousands but did nothing because he’s detached from all feelings and want, then how does that make him a good ruler? So is their final message that AI should rule humanity? A good ruler is one that has no empathy and/or and feelings? So are we to believe that if another lord is about to kill his subjects, King Bran will let it happen although he sees it in his crystal ball/weirnet because what has to happen has to happen? I’m not sure what the message is. 

- If he could see the future and manipulated events by letting thousands die so that he could be King, then he’s downright evil. Again, how is it good for Westeros to have this person as their King.

- If they are implying he can’t see the future, what was his mambo jambo response to Tyrion or Jon all about? Was that just added in by D&D for intrigue?

They couldn’t make up their mind about what to do with Bran except make him King somehow cause this is what GRRM told them years ago (likely before he decided to skip the 5-year time jump) and because this would be totally out of left field and shock the audience. They didn’t put any thought into how Bran being King would work... so they had Tyrion (who was literally a pariah in Westeros and who failed over and over again) make a 5 min BS argument to some random nobles and non-nobles, and voila Bran is king. 

I’m not sure we’ll ever know GRRM’s real feelings on this travesty, as he’s too polite and he still has all these projects he’s working on with HBO to diss their highest rated show. And then of course, I guess he feels somehow indebted to these two morons for making his books such a global phenomena.  

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56 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm not a Sansa fan, but what they did to her character was just insane.  If she has to turn into a manipulative schemer, at least she needed to keep the veneer of politeness that was always Sansa's strength and shield.  Having her tell her mother's brother whose been a cell for years to STFU instead of saying something diplomatic was emblematic of the show's inability to see a woman in power who doesn't act like a rude jerk.  Sansa has been incredibly rude to almost everyone since she got to Winterfell, rude when politeness would have been a much better strategy.  Arya, sure, it's totally in character for her to threaten to slit someone's throat in a meeting, that's who she has always been.  They did the same thing with Brienne, making her super rude to Pod for no reason except they can't seem to write strong women who aren't bitches.  Sad.

Yep. Sansa isn't a female Littlefinger, she's a younger Cersei, getting her power thanks to her lineage and good looks rather than cunning and good planning, and antagonizing people that should be her allies...

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13 hours ago, darksellsword said:

Imagine if someone had told you after the season 5 finale that yes Jon Snow would be resurrected, learn that he is the legitimate heir to the Iron throne, assemble two armies on two separate occasions and effectively lose in both instances if it weren't for his sisters and the only influence he had on the outcome of the entire story was to stab Daenerys to death. You would've cancelled your HBO subscription there and then, you would've deleted all your game of thrones episodes, snapped your blu-ray discs in half.

Anybody a Supernatural fan (the show Supernatural)?  Episode 200, when the girls are putting on the musical of Sam & Dean from Chuck's books.  Dean swears he saw a draft of the next book(s) and tells the girls all the stuff they've been doing and one of 'em pops off, "yeah right.  That sounds like bad fan fiction."

That's exactly what I would think had somebody told me the way things were going to go at either Season 5 or Season 4.

52 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm not a Sansa fan, but what they did to her character was just insane.  If she has to turn into a manipulative schemer, at least she needed to keep the veneer of politeness that was always Sansa's strength and shield.  Having her tell her mother's brother whose been a cell for years to STFU instead of saying something diplomatic was emblematic of the show's inability to see a woman in power who doesn't act like a rude jerk.  Sansa has been incredibly rude to almost everyone since she got to Winterfell, rude when politeness would have been a much better strategy.  Arya, sure, it's totally in character for her to threaten to slit someone's throat in a meeting, that's who she has always been.  They did the same thing with Brienne, making her super rude to Pod for no reason except they can't seem to write strong women who aren't bitches.  Sad.

I honestly think part of it is a complete misunderstanding of what "strong female" actually means.  It's clear they don't get human motivation, strength of character, or emotional integrity.  But you add on top of that they fell in love with Lena's performance as Cersei, who she played as a COMPLETE bitch because that actually fit the character, and they turned it into a feedback loop treating Lena's Cersei as the ultimate powerful female.  Ergo, any powerful female MUST be a complete bitch, regardless of who the character actually was.

Sansa's perma-scowl and snippy bullshit with literally EVERYONE after what she went through made zero sense.  She should have been grateful to be alive and out of Ramsey's grasp (show Sansa) and should have went back to controlling her emotional responses and being polite to a fault, if only to keep people off guard to her actual motivations.  Instead we get perma-scowl ranting and sniping at anyone who dared address her at all.

Lord, her and Jon talking before the battle of the bastards where she basically said she knows nothing of battles but she knows he's wrong drove me fucking NUTS.  Seriously?  If you don't have suggestions, nor are you going to reveal you have an army on standby, maybe STFU and go away?  Gah.

As for this season, her entire reason for being was to snipe and bitch.  Aside from that one moment of character self-awareness where she literally stated she's useless down in the crypts.  Which I found to be the most realistic moment of the entire 8th season.

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13 hours ago, darksellsword said:

Imagine if someone had told you after the season 5 finale that yes Jon Snow would be resurrected, learn that he is the legitimate heir to the Iron throne, assemble two armies on two separate occasions and effectively lose in both instances if it weren't for his sisters and the only influence he had on the outcome of the entire story was to stab Daenerys to death. You would've cancelled your HBO subscription there and then, you would've deleted all your game of thrones episodes, snapped your blu-ray discs in half.

I can't help but be paranoid and ask myself what D&D had against this character? Seriously, he's a wet blanket after his resurrection....

We were expecting a Jon more on the wild side, more unforgiving and less prone to trust people. They forgot how Jon was ready to stab Mance in the back after the battle at the Castle Black if it meant saving the Night's Watch - that was before he was Lord Commander and before he was killed. What we got was Ned 2.0...how?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Ser Lepus said:

Yep. Sansa isn't a female Littlefinger, she's a younger Cersei, getting her power thanks to her lineage and good looks rather than cunning and good planning, and antagonizing people that should be her allies...

Sansa's character was a failure the second they didn't have her using her Littelfinger training to undermine Ramsey while he was abusing her.

Escaping torture could be any character.  Sansa should have been secretly scheming with other northern  lords, sending fake raven messages using Bolton sigil wax, etc. 

Instead we got a flaccid character who many game of thrones hate.

 

Edited by tallTale

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27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Charles Dance is not happy with ending.  He called it "confusing."

Of course he did. Anyone with a lick of sense will find this confusing and terribly written. Anyone who thinks otherwise are deluded fans.

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Anyone seen any of Jason Mamoa's reaction to the finale?  Pretty much sums up what everyone in this thread was saying, but in a funnier way.  Him screaming, "FUCK YOU!  FUCK YOU YOU LITTLE PUNK!" as Jon stabbed Danny was pretty hilarious.  Also the never-ending, "Who the fuck cares?" at the stupid council at the dragon pit as Bran is announced king.

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17 hours ago, Dragons Are Real said:

Instantly, when she saw the Red Keep, according to the Ds.

Or, also according to the Ds, she'd always been Hitler because she didn't really care that her brother who had spent her entire life abusing her then threatened to rip her unborn child out of her and kill them both got killed by her protective husband.

One of those.

My lord those two are idiots.

We need a fan edit where Melisandre says to somebody before her wander out to die, "this script is dark, and full of errors."

Then Drogon, when he does the big roar, change it to "FUCK THIS SCRIPT!  DIE THRONE DIE!"

I mean, seriously, this entire last season needs MST3K's crew to hop on a run through.  Make it at least fun since there's no real payoffs.

You had me at MST3K :wub::cheers:

Yeah, somehow I forsee a RiffTrax in the works :lol:

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

Ha, Charles Dance must have looked at the council meeting and been like, WTF? It used to take entire seasons of plotting to shift the powerbases in Westeros, these dudes have done it inside of 5 minutes. 

I'm sure he has loved the reopening of brothels parts…

btw, I suppose D&D have extended their holidays on a distant island, and that they wear wigs and fake whiskers, under the names Dupont & Dupond… :P

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Posted (edited)

I just realized; shouldn't the Dothraki be under Jon's command now? I mean in their culture if you kill their Khal(eesi) you become one, so the only ones left are unsullied, let's say they were down to 7,500 after all the fighting before they crossed the ocean , then it is said they were reduced to half by the white walkers so 3,750 let's say they only lost 250 when they took kings landing , so 3500 soldiers against all of Westeros and the Dothraki that fight for Jon , it's just lazy writing

Edited by LHakaLH

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4 minutes ago, LHakaLH said:

I just realized; shouldn't the Dothraki be under Jon's command now? I mean in their culture if you kill their Khal(eesi) you become one, so the only ones left are unsullied, let's say they were down to 7,500 after all the fighting before they crossed the ocean , then it is said they were reduced to half by the white walkers so 3,750 let's say they only lost 250 when they took kings landing , so 3500 soldiers against all of Westeros and the Dothraki that fight for Jon , it's just lazy writing

Except we also learn that Bloodriders whose Khals have been murdered live only long enough to avenge them, before joyfully taking their own lives.

Another contradiction.

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24 minutes ago, Ruki88 said:

We were expecting a Jon more on the wild side, more unforgiving and less prone to trust people. They forgot how Jon was ready to stab Mance in the back after the battle at the Castle Black if it meant saving the Night's Watch - that was before he was Lord Commander and before he was killed. What we got was Ned 2.0...how?

Yeah that’s what GRRM keeps saying, we’ll see a darker Jon. The betrayal and stabbing will change him. But D&D’s Jon comes back from the dead to be this stupid, naive, gullible and always forgiving moron. They completely ruined this character. And besides, he was never dumb in the books to begin with.

I saw an interview after S1 or S2 with GRRM where he says Show!LF is not Book!LF as in the show everyone and their mother distrusts LF. If that was the case, GRRM says, LF could not do the things he does. Book!LF is friendly with everyone and that’s why he’s so efficient because people are blind to his machinations and never suspect he’s working against them. The only exception to this may be Varys and to some extent Tyrion. 

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Late to the rant; was away, so I couldn't post - but I read all your comments here on the last three episodes (in the rant&rave-thread), so I only have little to add.

First:

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm not a Sansa fan, but what they did to her character was just insane.  If she has to turn into a manipulative schemer, at least she needed to keep the veneer of politeness that was always Sansa's strength and shield.  Having her tell her mother's brother whose been a cell for years to STFU instead of saying something diplomatic was emblematic of the show's inability to see a woman in power who doesn't act like a rude jerk.  Sansa has been incredibly rude to almost everyone since she got to Winterfell, rude when politeness would have been a much better strategy.  Arya, sure, it's totally in character for her to threaten to slit someone's throat in a meeting, that's who she has always been.  They did the same thing with Brienne, making her super rude to Pod for no reason except they can't seem to write strong women who aren't bitches.  Sad. 

Zizek wrote on the problem of the female characters and the ending in the show:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/game-thrones-season-8-finale-bran-daenerys-cersei-jon-snow-zizek-revolution-a8923371.html?fbclid=IwAR2mYK7eHEShZdRGkGFJ65gaW2wiEQkcRjBdxkJld8NcJ3ilzX1PrFc8GZY

Second:Thank you @Cas Stark, The Wire-review is really spot on:

Quote

She tosses Tyrion in jail for the treason of releasing his brother, the latest stupid choice in his seemingly unstoppable run of stupid choices. Now that he's about to end up on the business end of a dragonfire guillotine, Tyrion laments enabling her and makes a very bad argument about Dany's use of force, which essentially begins, "First she came for the slavers of Astapor and I said nothing…" Ah yes, it's too bad she didn't just sit back and decide to see if the slaves could free themselves by winning against their masters in the marketplace of ideas! It's a facile analysis of force that conveniently erases all power structures from the equation, that imagines there is no moral difference between Dany rising up to kill slave masters and murdering thousands of innocent children.

and

Quote

While it's hard to resist the pithy moral absolutism and easy applause line of "violence is always wrong," it's also worth noting that despite its superficial patina of fairness, this argument invariably benefits the powerful; not only do they get to pretend that there's no difference between punching up and punching down, they get to robe themselves in self-righteousness and claim the moral high ground while they do it. Who's the real Nazi—the Nazi or the person who punches a Nazi, hmmm?

I do hope, that they indeed went far away from GRRM's ending, else he must be cautious to not send exactly this message.

I'm a little bit worried about the books, to be honest, as I have seen too many fantasy books mess up their endings, but I still have hope. So, what do I take from this mess:

- Jaime will get his trial and will be redeemed; and yes, by a Targaryen (but not because Brienne says he's an "okay-guy", but because Brienne will tell the truth about him murdering Aerys)

- Dany will magdeburgerise at least one city (my bets are on Volantis, maybe more of the slaver's cities)

- Someone will burn/destroy KL, either Cersei with Wildfire or JonCon&All, maybe even Dany, although I think she will come so late to the game that this would only happen as a "damned if you do, damned if you don't"-decision. A la: The dead rise as far South as KL and JonCon indeed did spread Greyscale in the city, so KL is full of corpses and sick/dying people.

- Bran will leave the cave

- Jon will not break his vows to the Watch. Actually I'm now more confident, that he will never get resurrected, because he never died, but "only" was severely wounded. Depending on the outcome with the Others the Nightwatch will change dramatically, and it will be Jon who will reform it.

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:
Quote

Bloodraven as king?

Now, that’s an idea I can totally get behind! :commie:

So happy my darling Bloodraven never made it into this shitfest.  

Actually, it's a pity none of the Great Bastards (Bloodraven or Seastar) attended the council - witnessing the gruesome deaths of all the Show!Starks would have been soooooo satisfying! :commie:

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20 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Yeah that’s what GRRM keeps saying, we’ll see a darker Jon. The betrayal and stabbing will change him. But D&D’s Jon comes back from the dead to be this stupid, naive, gullible and always forgiving moron. They completely ruined this character. And besides, he was never dumb in the books to begin with.

Yes, this is the frustrating thing for me - Jon wasn't so dumb in the books.

In the show we got action hero Jon, the greatest swordsman (??), honorable Jon. Apparently, D&D were so impressed by Kit being capable of handling a sword that they decided to give him more sword battle scenes. Hence how Jon the action hero, best swordsman was born.

It irks me because little by little we see book!Jon realize how honor doesn't mean as much as his father taught him, not in the real world, so to speak. This was such an awesome thing for me since I wasn't a fan of Ned frankly.

All those plans he made for Stannis. All those plans on how to improve the Waych and how to man it. Naaaaaah, Jon wielding a sword and being constantly called short and pretty are obviously more important to show on screen.

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12 minutes ago, Ruki88 said:

It irks me because little by little we see book!Jon realize how honor doesn't mean as much as his father taught him, not in the real world, so to speak. This was such an awesome thing for me since I wasn't a fan of Ned frankly.

I don t think book jon thinks honor isn t very important. I think he realises some things must be done wether they are the most honorful actions he can take or not. That he can act with honor but within a grey area.

And by the way, one could argue that there is enough foreshadowing that in the future jon will chose love over duty/honor...

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