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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

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10 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t think book jon thinks honor isn t very important. I think he realises some things must be done wether they are the most honorful actions he can take or not. That he can act with honor but within a grey area.

And by the way, one could argue that there is enough foreshadowing that in the future jon will chose love over duty/honor...

Oh sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that. Jon does have honor in mind but he starts to think on it differently that his father taught him, I think. In a way he's revising what he was taught in theory and applies it to real situations.

The love over duty would be an interesting thing to see. You think it'll be Dany? I sincerely hope not. But based on the show it might...?

I don't know, the show got so incoherent that I can't honestly extrapolate something from it when it concerns plots and such.

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

So, the show put the Isle of Faces in the opening, yes?

Was it ever even mentioned in season 8?

 

I don’t remember if the show brought it up or not. But there were people saying there’d be some awesome twist because of that, yadda yadda yadda. I said it was typical D&D trolling and was dismissed immediately. :D

 

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9 minutes ago, Ruki88 said:

Oh sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that. Jon does have honor in mind but he starts to think on it differently that his father taught him, I think. In a way he's revising what he was taught in theory and applies it to real situations.

The love over duty would be an interesting thing to see. You think it'll be Dany? I sincerely hope not. But based on the show it might...?

I don't know, the show got so incoherent that I can't honestly extrapolate something from it when it concerns plots and such.

After watching the show I have no idea. Given that the earliest he can meet danny is towards the end of winds I think it may be too litle time for them to have a relationship that ends with jon killing her because she is a a bad ruler.

However, it makes perfect sense that jon and danny will want a marriage aliance as soon as they hear from each other… It will depend on what grrm wants...

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t remember if the show brought it up or not. But there were people saying there’d be some awesome twist because of that, yadda yadda yadda. I said it was typical D&D trolling and was dismissed immediately. :D

 

wise woman.

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1 hour ago, LHakaLH said:

I just realized; shouldn't the Dothraki be under Jon's command now? I mean in their culture if you kill their Khal(eesi) you become one, so the only ones left are unsullied, let's say they were down to 7,500 after all the fighting before they crossed the ocean , then it is said they were reduced to half by the white walkers so 3,750 let's say they only lost 250 when they took kings landing , so 3500 soldiers against all of Westeros and the Dothraki that fight for Jon , it's just lazy writing

Well, her bloodriders should have killed Jon then offed themselves. But David and Dan said they’d gone extinct after the Short Night, so I don’t know. It’s all very confusing.  

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Hah! I just saw Jason Momoa's reaction to the finale.
That's a whole lot of "fuck you", "fuck you punk" and "who gives a fuck" in a very short spawn of time.

*Jon stabs Daenerys - Khal Drogo wants to know your location*


 

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1 hour ago, Morte said:

Actually, it's a pity none of the Great Bastards (Bloodraven or Seastar) attended the council - witnessing the gruesome deaths of all the Show!Starks would have been soooooo satisfying! :commie:

So one of the tinfoil theories is that quaithe is Sheeara Seastar and if Bran is now possesed of Brynden Bloodraven have these two lovers just been using everyone to get back to each other? That would be soap opera level crazy.

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

Hah! I just saw Jason Momoa's reaction to the finale.
That's a whole lot of "fuck you", "fuck you punk" and "who gives a fuck" in a very short spawn of time.

*Jon stabs Daenerys - Khal Drogo wants to know your location*


 

I honestly wish I would have live-streamed his reaction instead of watching the episode itself.  Much more entertaining.

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10 minutes ago, Ruki88 said:

Oh sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that. Jon does have honor in mind but he starts to think on it differently that his father taught him, I think. In a way he's revising what he was taught in theory and applies it to real situations.

The love over duty would be an interesting thing to see. You think it'll be Dany? I sincerely hope not. But based on the show it might...?

I don't know, the show got so incoherent that I can't honestly extrapolate something from it when it concerns plots and such.

I just don’t think GRRM cares much for romance or writing a great love story.  I still think book Jon will recall  Maester Aaemon’s words that love is the bane of honor and the death of duty.

I feel his whole arc is to become the man (kill the boy) who sacrifices love for honor and duty. 

 

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8 minutes ago, divica said:

wise woman.

Not really. All it takes is knowing D&D and how they roll. :D

 

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2 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

I feel his whole arc is to become the man (kill the boy) who sacrifices love for honor and duty. 

I’m not so sure... Martin is a romantic... and I think he is taking great pains to illustrate the difference between duty and honour. Duty is to stick to your vows no matter what; honour is doing the right thing, even if it goes against your vows. Words are wind, it’s one’s actions that matter, not words. 

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Posted (edited)

I just discovered this forum and these Rant & Rave threads. What a great way to cope with the travesty the show became, thanks everyone! 1200 posts and counting! 

Anyways, my primary rant is that the show gave up on characters grappling with their morals, principles, & emotions.  Character development showed us what was important to each person in the story, and  Our characters were constantly forced to choose 1 virtue vs another (e.g., love vs duty). Characters were also forced to judge risk vs reward. AND then we witnessed that their choices had actual consequences. Characters were grey and real. This is why I loved the show. Just a few examples (just talking show here) of where this was so entertaining & thought provoking:  

  1. Ned's truth and honor and lies: Even the honorable Ned has a lifelong lie about Jon. In KL dungeons, he has to decide between his honor (the truth) vs safety for his children (a lie). 
  2. Robb's duty vs love: has to decide between loving Talisa vs keeping Frey bethrothal & Frey allegiance. 
  3. Catelyn's Daughters vs Northern Army: Catelyn decides to let Jaime go, which hurts Northern Army; she takes this huge risk but does so for her children.
  4. Jon's NW vows and wildling conflicts: He's asked to kill his NW brother, the halfhand, to gain wildling trust. He forgoes NW vows to have sex w/ Ygritte. Later he leaves Ygritte even though he loves her. Eventually he lets wildlings south of the wall. So many interesting conflicts here that Jon has to navigate. In the end, his choices cause him to kill his NW brother, lead to the death of his love, and his own death. 
  5. Whispering Wood sacrifice: Robb sends 2,000 troops to their death to ambush Jaime. It works, but Robb is forced to acknowledge that he is responsible for all this death. 
  6. Stannis & Renly & bannerman:  Stannis murders his own brother with dark Mel magic, and clearly doesn't enjoy fratricide, but suffers it to gain troops for his war effort. Further, he views bannerman who were originally loyal to Renly as traitors, but accepts them anyways (and for the record, Tywin has the same choice w/ the Tyrells after Renly's death). 

I could go on and on and on. All these characters fight through these conflicting choices. 

But in recent seasons, we just get total crap, black and white. No difficult choices, just plot turns. And no consequences either. A few painful examples: 

  1. Arya murders without consequence:  Arya can murder all the Freys, an entire house and no one cares. And she feels no remorse, there is no difficult decision, no consequences (mental or physical). Shouldn't someone care? Frey sympathizers? Even Sansa? 
  2. Sand Snakes murder without consequence:  Ellaria & sand snakes murder Doran. But then, they just, rule Dorne...what? Shouldn't we have seen their decision making of, hmm, we can murder Doran but we'll also die for it, or we can not murder him but we won't have our vengeance. But no, they just murder him and forget all about feudal succession, and somehow all of Dorne follows them. 
  3. Cersei Blows up Everybody, takes throne, no one cares: Cersei blows up Sept, High Sparrows, her uncle, and basically all of House Tyrell. She decides to do this in 1 episode with little thought. Somehow no smallfolk riot (even though they loved the Sparrow), no Faith Militant survive to uprise. She betrayed House Tyrell, who was an ally, but no one cares...actually, Randyll Tarly, a Tyrell bannerman (!) actually ends up siding with Cersei...what? And then the entire premise of the Game of Thrones, all of feudal succession, etc, is thrown out the window as she crowns herself Queen Cersei Lannister? The whole show is based on being a rightful heir to the throne, or taking it by conquest.... but I guess now let's just not care about 6 seasons of that and do whatever we want and no one will care. 
  4. Euron-Cersei Alliance: This is just dumb. This should be difficult for Cersei b/c she shouldn't really trust Euron...but in the show she trusts him, gives him a ton of gold, and he loyally returns with the Golden Company. It would be more Euron to just take the gold and go sailing, but whatever. And then Euron, Euron wants independence, so it should be a tough choice for him because he's bending the knee. But no he just goes along with it without a thought. So lame.
  5. Missandei beheading: This should be a Cersei choice. You could bargain w/ Dany (advantageous but its against your base desire for murder), or you can behead her (makes Cersei feel good, but enrages a dragon Queen...obviously  a terrible idea, why would anyone do this?). This should be a thoughtful choice, but instead its a throwaway murder. 
  6. Dany razing KL: We get Dany winning the KL battle singlehandedly, and basically getting what she's always fought for (retaking Iron Throne)...this was her #1 goal/value the ENTIRE SERIES. And then she inexplicably "chooses" to burn innocents, to go against her #2 goal of helping disadvantaged people. What the bleep? Why wouldn't you MAKE HER CHOOSE BETWEEN #1 and #2? Make it so she can only achieve #1 (Iron Throne) by abandoning #2? Ugh, would be so interesting. 
  7. Jon killing Dany: If you fix the Dany in KL choice, then all of the sudden you make this Jon choice much much harder/more conflicting. Make him judge if Dany's decision to kill innocent ppl in order to win the IT was worth it. Make him decide if its worth violence Instead we get garbage - obviously Dany is now 100% evil, the biggest murderer in the show, and obviously Jon's only choice is to kill her. And then worse yet, after killing her, Jon doesn't even die by Drogon or Greyworm...so it was an easy choice with no consequences (OK, the NW is his punishment, fine, but its comical b/c he literally voluntarily chose to join the NW). 
  8. Choosing a King:  This should be an extremely difficult choice for all. And they were going for a unity pick, fine, but we should see how all of these kingdoms are making compromises for some type of greater good. This should actually be viewed as difficult and challenging and required tons of give and take. But instead we get none of this. Everyone just says "yay Bran!" This is dumb enough, but then... 
  9. Northern Independence: Ugh. This upends the unity choice for King. This has been discussed in detail so I won't go on, but you get the point. Again this is just a choice Sansa gets to make that isn't portrayed as difficult, and apparently has no consequences at all. 

 

I've went on too long, but you get the point. 

Edited by WeDoNotKneel_HailMance
Added 1 thing

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On 5/19/2019 at 10:29 PM, fcaceres said:

It was worse than the finale of Dexter.

No. That whole season was way worse I feel. 

 

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19 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

So one of the tinfoil theories is that quaithe is Sheeara Seastar and if Bran is now possesed of Brynden Bloodraven have these two lovers just been using everyone to get back to each other? That would be soap opera level crazy. 

What? No. I would just borrow the DeLorean from Preston Jacobs (see his review of episode 6), go back in time, tell Bloodraven in his prime what just happened in the future and take him and some of his teeths to the "Great" Council. Problems solved.

And the expectations would have been greatly subverted.

Sorry, it was just so awful - time travel is the only way to fix this. ;)

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, divica said:

After watching the show I have no idea. Given that the earliest he can meet danny is towards the end of winds I think it may be too litle time for them to have a relationship that ends with jon killing her because she is a a bad ruler.

However, it makes perfect sense that jon and danny will want a marriage aliance as soon as they hear from each other… It will depend on what grrm wants...

True, it doesn't make sense in the books. I mean, in the show all relationships are romanticised compared with the books. I don't think we will see something romantic between Jon and Dany, or not like we would imagine.

When we think about Jon's choice love/duty we think the romantic kind of love. But what if it is family love or friendship love or love for the north etc?

Right now what Jon loves more is family. Can we say that Jon deciding to fight for Arya his choice between love/duty (even though I think it's more complicated than that in the books). Or will it be something else in the future books in which Jon chooses the love for family rather than duty?

I don't know but I think love as romantic is kinda meh for me.

Edited by Ruki88

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2 hours ago, Ser Lepus said:

Yep. Sansa isn't a female Littlefinger, she's a younger Cersei, getting her power thanks to her lineage and good looks rather than cunning and good planning, and antagonizing people that should be her allies...

Well, Sansa is apparently a slow learner do because she never used sex to manipulate the men around her :P

2 hours ago, Dragons Are Real said:

Anybody a Supernatural fan (the show Supernatural)?  Episode 200, when the girls are putting on the musical of Sam & Dean from Chuck's books.  Dean swears he saw a draft of the next book(s) and tells the girls all the stuff they've been doing and one of 'em pops off, "yeah right.  That sounds like bad fan fiction."

Yessss! I love the show! Currently I had to take a little break from binging it - currently at season 12 - but will be coming back to it soon. There is a certain repetitiveness on the Sam-Dean dynamics and certain aspects from the earlier seasons seem to be ignored but on the whole, still highly enjoyable, still offering fresh takes. 

2 hours ago, Dragons Are Real said:

As for this season, her entire reason for being was to snipe and bitch.  Aside from that one moment of character self-awareness where she literally stated she's useless down in the crypts.  Which I found to be the most realistic moment of the entire 8th season.

That actually started a couple seasons earlier - in other words, yet another character assassination added to the list.

2 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

I can't help but be paranoid and ask myself what D&D had against this character? Seriously, he's a wet blanket after his resurrection....

We were expecting a Jon more on the wild side, more unforgiving and less prone to trust people. They forgot how Jon was ready to stab Mance in the back after the battle at the Castle Black if it meant saving the Night's Watch - that was before he was Lord Commander and before he was killed. What we got was Ned 2.0...how?

Now that Supernatural has been mentioned, that's actually a nice example of characters going jaded and ruthless afte their ordeal. Plus, except that stabbing job, Jon could have been removed from the whole season and nothing would have changed.

2 hours ago, tallTale said:

Simply trying to escape could be any character.  Sansa should have been secretly scheming with other Northern Lords, sending fake raven messages using Ramsay sigil wax, etc. 

And all the while being cute and sweet towards Ramsay - that would have been Sansa!

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Posted (edited)

Jon’s ending is atrocious. He is the damn main character of the story and there is still no flat out consensus on what his ending really was. So many unanswered questions. 

Is it kinda a joke that they sent Jon to the Night's Watch when it didn't exist anymore? Was Bran actually setting Jon free, knowing he'd go be happy with the Wildlings? When Jon looked back at the closing gate and then at the Free Folk, he smiled. Was he smiling because he was free and never coming back? Will he never see the Starks again? Will he find a Free Folk woman and be happy? If that's true, maybe his ending is bittersweet.

OR, was he actually being punished as Tyrion said? Was he responsible for resettling the Free Folk and then planning to come back and live a miserable life at the Wall? Will he be alone for the rest of his life, never having a wife or kids? That sounds very bitter to me, although I kinda think it that's a possible ending because maybe they were implying that House Targaryen will die with Jon.

This ending is not just flat out open ended, it’s so ambiguous it might as well have been no ending at all. It’s like they took the easy way out here. THey didn’t want to anger any part of Jon’s and Dany’s fanbase so they didn’t commit to any ending in particular for both of them so the prequels would sell. Did Drogon take Dany’s body to revive her? You can dream up any fan fiction you want for them. Same for Arya.

She could turn up again in 10 years loaded with treasure and having colonized new land, or she could sink three days out of port. She could spend her life traveling non-stop and never return to Westeros. She could travel for decades and go back to Winterfell to “retire.” It’s a complete blank.

At least show us a damn epilogue so we see where the characters finally ended up at the end  

I expect if GRRM ever finishes his book, we will get a committed ending as to what exactly happened to the characters especially Jon. THis ending shows the show no longer wants to take any risks like it used to. Ned Stark, Catelyn Stark Robb dying. That was the old GOT. One which wasn’t afraid of fan backlash. Now we have Bron on the council. 

If I do a rewatch of GOT, it ends at Season 6. I will finish the rest on my own. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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10 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Blue hair, yellow shirt, tattoos, is she Daario's sister? B)

I thought she was cute, none the less.  Daario is supposed to be quite beautiful under all of that as well. 

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3 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

Ned Stark, Catelyn Stark Robb dying. That was the old GOT. One which wasn’t afraid of fan backlash. 

Was there a backlash though? Of course, no-one was happy that their favourite characters died, but the story was good, so we mourned them and jumped on our seats to get moar. I don't recall anyone hating on the show because of the Red Wedding.

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Posted (edited)

"Jon, you are half Targaryen and half Stark. Someone who could truly unite the kingdoms if you married Dany. Will you take your position, become what you should and avenge your family forging a new empire?"

'ai dunt wunt eht'

'yaw mah queen'

<stab> 

<back to wandering around a wasteland aimlessly>

Edited by Techmaester

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