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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

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4 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

Elio and Linda have done a segment on YouTube re. the endgame and, on the whole, I agree with them.

Needless to say, they're also struggling with the Bran as king scenario.

 

I agree and disagree with a lot of what they say here.

I really don t see jon returning to the NW because it has proven to be a useless and flawed order  and is basically a stepback for the character. He has literally been there, done that and moved on… And him deciding to isolate himslef north of the Wall coldhands style seems really depresing for me... And if he has a child he certainly won t abandon him/her...

I also don t see tyrion being hand. He is acused of so many crimes and so generally hated that I have no idea how he can have a political position like hand...

On the other hand I agree with a lot of what they say about sansa and bran...

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Maybe D&D misheard when George was actually telling them about King BRON… :ack:

Yeah. Bron the Cockeror...

Edited by hewman

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4 hours ago, 7th-key said:

Exactly. I like the point this reviewer makes, that the show seems unable to understand that being a bad ass is not the only way to show strenght and itelligence:

 

I did enjoy the video, but I just wanted to say:  I LOVE THE GHOST PIC HERE!! 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, divica said:

I agree and disagree with a lot of what they say here.

I really don t see jon returning to the NW because it has proven to be a useless and flawed order  and is basically a stepback for the character. He has literally been there, done that and moved on… And him deciding to isolate himslef north of the Wall coldhands style seems really depresing for me... And if he has a child he certainly won t abandon him/her...

I also don t see tyrion being hand. He is acused of so many crimes and so generally hated that I have no idea how he can have a political position like hand...

On the other hand I agree with a lot of what they say about sansa and bran...

What is your interpretation of where Jon goes at the end?

This is my take

 

The GOT writers revealed that they had an alternate ending planned where Jorah lives and he also goes into the NW for betraying Dany and the ones coming out of the tunnel were Jon, Jorah and Tormund so based on this we can infer that the writers intended Jon to be in the NW as Jorah wouldn’t go away with the free folk and they are wearing the NW uniform  

I think the Nights Watch will end up as some sort of intermediary between the North and the true North. Probably help the freefolk settle and help them to trade between the 2 kingdoms and keep the peace. Jon is free to do whatever he wants under the guise of the NW. No one is going to stop him if he goes back to the North. 

At least that’s my head canon which is the best possible ending for Jon as he gets the best of both the worlds. He gets to see Sansa occasionally, probably even Sam and still enjoy himself with the FreeFolk. 

I don’t like the Jon going into exile with the freefolk ending as it means the Wildlings are back to being isolated which is something they have fought against for so many years and Jon gets cutoff from the rest of the world. And really he needs some aim in life. In the true North there is nothing for him to do but become a lumber jack. There is nothing to fight as he army of the dead probably killed any threats in the freezing lands. The NW still grants him a certain purpose.

 

I don’t know why they didn’t just give us a Harry Potter style epilogue so we see what happens. Almost everyone got a Disney ending so nothing wrong with it and it’s the last time we are gonna see the characters. Otherwise this ambiguous ending just forces everyone to make up their own head canon  

 

Edited by Kaapstad

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3 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

What is your interpretation of where Jon goes at the end?

This is my take

 

The GOT writers revealed that they had an alternate ending planned where Jorah lives and he also goes into the NW for betraying Dany and the ones coming out of the tunnel were Jon, Jorah and Tormund so based on this we can infer that the writers intended Jon to be in the NW as Jorah wouldn’t go away with the free folk and they are wearing the NW uniform  

I think the Nights Watch will end up as some sort of intermediary between the North and the true North. Probably help the freefolk settle and help them to trade between the 2 kingdoms and keep the peace. Jon is free to do whatever he wants under the guise of the NW. No one is going to stop him if he goes back to the North. 

At least that’s my head canon which is the best possible ending for Jon as he gets the best of both the worlds. He gets to see Sansa occasionally, probably even Sam and still enjoy himself with the FreeFolk. 

I don’t like the Jon going into exile with the freefolk ending as it means the Wildlings are back to being isolated which is something they have fought against for so many years and Jon gets cutoff from the rest of the world. And really he needs some aim in life. In the true North there is nothing for him to do but become a lumber jack. There is nothing to fight as he army of the dead probably killed any threats in the freezing lands. The NW still grants him a certain purpose.

 

First, I think the NW as we know it will end. It just doesn t make sense. Even if the others aren t complelty defeated (which would be weird) they will be gone for thousands of years and the NW as it was is complelty incapable of handling them.

So, in my worst prediction I think some parts of the north will separate (the gift, the karstarks, the clans…) and with the lands noth of Wall to form a new kingdom ruled by jon.

However in my head the north will become a very diferent place that it was in the beguining. Most of their original noble houses will be dead and the population will be savages (wildlings, clansmen, skagosi), iron born, Giants, cragnonmen, refugees… And the person that brings all these people together to fight the others is jon. So, afterwards he will end up in charge of the north filled with all these people that don t like each other and have brutal cultures. So his role will be to make sure they stay United and bring them to a better future. Kind of dealing with the kingdom he built...

On the other hand I also liked the idea someone had that the NW could become some kind of knight order that acts independently of the kingdoms in order to keep people safe.

 

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So that face on kit the whole season, it was real! It was tiresome and depressing yes. He says it's because he did not want it to end and felt angry about others just moving on.

Duty? Don't think so. He did it because of sisters.

Honor? Very dishonorable character, breaking vows left and right, including backstabbing his queen, his lover, his love, his quin. Honor never back-stabs.

Love? Nobody bought it. Also aunt. Love not necessary to marry into kingship.

Rant and rave thread? Man, it's mainstream now.  That is why they wanted it to end fast. Also Star Wars money.

 

Forget about Arya superkiller or the master poisoner or the master of secret passages and propaganda. Tell me this. Why did not Bran warg into Cerci and suicided her? Or mountain or qyburn, etc. Same could be done to kill Danny. Think of all the little people that would not die this way!

Only conclusion to their shitty narrative is that Bran is evil as fuck and just wanted them to proclaim him king. Maybe even seeing into the future which is just stupid.

 

PS: Why would the North have a different king than Bran, the rightful heir to winterfell/North? He could just make her warden of the north / Lady of Winterfell. All that for a title, when the north has almost no people left or buildings standing. The North remembers and if there was an army surrounding a KL that no longer exists they would not relinquish the now again KITN and heir to the IT.

 

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Dragons Are Real said:

... As for the debate about Bran being king?  Anybody ever read God Emperor of Dune?

Yes, years & years ago, and now I'm tempted to revisit those novels. At least the earlier ones. The Bene Gesserit and Mentats are presented as sophisticated, ultra-disciplined thinkers, but in action they're as prone to boneheaded stupidity as anyone else. Maybe my present-day self will be more forgiving of that than my youthful self was.

I really do hope the remaining volumes of this saga appear in print. It's so fun to notice the small correspondences (intentional or not) between the book in one's hands and the ones previously read. F&SF authors are always riffing off each other: hive minds, alternate continua ("parallel universes"), machine learning, augmented supersoldiers, blah di blah. Bran as Leto II would be pretty cool.

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On 5/30/2019 at 2:33 AM, 7th-key said:

My thought too. Mostly because, I start from the other side: Brienne filling Jaime's page in the White Book seem like a little too caring of a detail to be coming from D&D (in the show Jaime shoved the book off the table for some action with Cersei). So I suspect Brienne will indeed become "King's" Guard in the Book, and that would make sense if Sansa is Queen. And Sansa is the only Stark who is actually learning about politics. Jon is more of military tactician - politics got him stabbed. Bran is too mystcal for the south or for holding diplomancy over 7 kingdoms. Arya might become a ninja, though in her journey she has  lived what the smallfolk has gone through - she should really join the Small Council in th enew position of Folk Representative ;P ...and then it's all rainbows ad unicorns (GRRM did say there will be unicorns).

Agreed on the Brienne thing, and also agreed that Sansa is the only character that has the makings of a politician. She always had the polite manners and the caring side that would endear her to people, and she is currently learning wisdom as well as scheming. I think Queen Sansa is a safe bet, but the queen of what? The North? The whole Westeros? At the beginning, she was the least Starkish of the Stark kids, so growing to become a true Stark would make for a nice character arc. There was a thread in the book forum dedicated to killing the savage giant, and I am so hoping for an outcome when Sansa will deal justice with her own hand like a true Stark should!

 

16 hours ago, Dragons Are Real said:

As for the debate about Bran being king?  Anybody ever read God Emperor of Dune?  Some people hated the premise, but it always stuck with me.  I think Westeros may end up with God Emperor Bran for a thousand years.  Wonder who he'll keep reanimating so he'll have someone around to check reality for him, and eventually kill him?

Some hero might chop off his head :-)

I can see Bran the God Emperor as a possibility but I cannot fathom the buildup that would get him on the throne unless he shows his powers somehow. Sitting in a chair being a cryptic robot doesn't work for me.

15 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

There is PLENTY of room for maneuver here. There's no need to assume Bran ends up king of the Six Kingdoms.

He could just as easily (or indeed more convincingly) be:

King of Winterfell/the North

King Beyond the Wall (still stuck in his tree) lording it over the CotF

Night King

Now that's an outcome I would love!

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There was a lot of speculation during the season that Bran may have been so intimately linked with the Night King that he already WAS the Night King, but wouldn't proclaim it until the current Night King's body was destroyed.  That would have been a MUCH more satisfactory story than what we got.

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7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

and also agreed that Sansa is the only character that has the makings of a politician. She always had the polite manners and the caring side that would endear her to people, and she is currently learning wisdom as well as scheming. I think Queen Sansa is a safe bet, but the queen of what? The North? The whole Westeros? At the beginning, she was the least Starkish of the Stark kids, so growing to become a true Stark would make for a nice character arc. There was a thread in the book forum dedicated to killing the savage giant, and I am so hoping for an outcome when Sansa will deal justice with her own hand like a true Stark should!

I disagree. I think sansa can become a politician with the same style as LF however that isn t the only style of politics in asoiaf. It is clear that both jon and danny learned a lot about how to deal with other people by the end of dance (they had a lot of political decisions). I think we will see how both of them deal with politics after they failed. That will be interesting to see...

In regards to sansa, I really doubt she will become queen in the north. First because I think the north won t be like she remembers (too many great houses will be nearly extinguished and the survivors will be war veterans… And there will also be the wildlings and Giants setling in the gift… clansmen, skagosi and cragnonmen becoming more important…). Given that all that sansa learns are Southern politics I don t see them working in a more savage and magical north than ever. 

I can see her becoming a leader in the vale because she will manouver herself into a strong political position. It will be someting earned. The fan fiction that the vale will support her claim to take over the north and give her an army to help her sounds ridiculous to me. The vale lords (and LF) would need to rebel against the lannisters for sansa, invade the north in the midle of winter (with an imaginary fleet or a kamikaze attack against moat calin) and then march to winterfell and attack it without getting any benefits…

And this doesn t include the fact that if faegon wins the IT then the vale would either swear to him or prepare to defend itself against him. I just don t see the vale having enough time to have a role in the north… Given that 4 or 5 of alayne chapters will be about the tourney and that usually sansa doesn t have a lot of pov chapters there isn t enough chapters for them to call the banners and reach the north in the entire book...

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On 5/19/2019 at 11:35 PM, JonCon's Red Beard said:

You know this is a terrible adaptation when, despite Sansa actually has a real claim to the North, her being Queen feels like something they made up to make amends with fans after they destroyed her character. 

The idea that most people feel that the story is about who "wins" the throne is probably the biggest insult to GRRM's work, way worst than this sham of an adaptation. And the fact that the most unlikely character actually "wins" the throne is beyond words.

 

Naming Sansa Queen back in season Six would have actually made sense. She was the Lady of Winterfell and Bran had not been discovered to have survived yet. Acclaiming a bastard who recently abandoned the Night's Watch for mysterious reasons was unbelievable.

Now, however, things are different. The North seceding right after they rejoined the kingdoms and a Northern Lord became king makes zero sense  

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On 5/30/2019 at 3:01 PM, Dragons Are Real said:

God Emperor Bran for a thousand years.  Wonder who he'll keep reanimating so he'll have someone around to check reality for him, and eventually kill him?

Let's see.

Duncan Idaho

Dunk

:idea:

Brienne? As Dunk the Tall's possible descendant and potentially distant kin of Hodor!

And if the re-animations go wrong:

"I'm no lady"

"Ahm no ledy"

"Ah melody"

With apologies to both Dune fans and non-fans  :ack:

 

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So according to this video, the show makers say Jon is not going to stay with the wildlings. He is going to be ranging the far North for the rest of his life alone. And not have any children or marry. That’s kinda sad :(

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On 6/1/2019 at 12:46 AM, darmody said:

Naming Sansa Queen back in season Six would have actually made sense. She was the Lady of Winterfell and Bran had not been discovered to have survived yet. Acclaiming a bastard who recently abandoned the Night's Watch for mysterious reasons was unbelievable.

 

Pretty much and then she could have then pardoned Jon for leaving the NW and made him her warden given that he's the military one of the two of them. Then, in the old days of thrones, Bran's appearance would have all the lords umming and ahhing because suddenly someone ahead of her in the succession has shown up alive. 

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The one good thing that came from the travesty of Cersei and Jaime's arcs:

 

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On 5/30/2019 at 1:37 PM, divica said:

I really don t see jon returning to the NW because it has proven to be a useless and flawed order  and is basically a stepback for the character.

On top of that, it just logically makes no sense. The entire point of the NW is to man the Wall in order to guard against the Others. Over time, its purpose has been perverted towards being manning the Wall against the Wildlings. 

The books, like the show, are pushing towards an ending where 1) the Wall is either completely destroyed or greatly damaged, 2) the Others are defeated and no longer a threat, 3) the Wildlings are no longer considered an enemy. 

All of those things would defeat the purpose of the NW existing at all anymore. On top of that, the NW as an order is in a rapid decline where there are very few Night Watchmen remaining. Even if the Wall still stood, and there were still enemies to fight, the NW is basically right on the verge of dissolving as of the end of the 5th book. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2019 at 8:59 AM, Ser Quork said:

Elio and Linda have done a segment on YouTube re. the endgame and, on the whole, I agree with them.

Needless to say, they're also struggling with the Bran as king scenario.

 

 

I think Bran is king makes sense if GRMM actually told D&D that Bran ends up as King as in King of the North (he is the oldest living son of Ned Stark, and Robb Stark's heir afterall).

 

Bran as King of the 7 (or 6, I guess) Kingdoms really doesn't make any sense. 

Edited by aquintus
And now that I'm actually reading the last couple of pages, this has been brought up.

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On 5/30/2019 at 11:11 PM, Gendelsdottir said:

Yes, years & years ago, and now I'm tempted to revisit those novels. At least the earlier ones. The Bene Gesserit and Mentats are presented as sophisticated, ultra-disciplined thinkers, but in action they're as prone to boneheaded stupidity as anyone else. Maybe my present-day self will be more forgiving of that than my youthful self was.

I really do hope the remaining volumes of this saga appear in print. It's so fun to notice the small correspondences (intentional or not) between the book in one's hands and the ones previously read. F&SF authors are always riffing off each other: hive minds, alternate continua ("parallel universes"), machine learning, augmented supersoldiers, blah di blah. Bran as Leto II would be pretty cool.

Only if his bottom half was a dragon. :)

More seriously, it's pretty obvious that Martin was riffing off another F&SF work for Bran, but it wasn't Leto II whom he'd become.

A much better fit is Bran being like Severian towards the end of Gene Wolfe’s Citadel of the Autarch after he'd suddenly and super-surprisingly become Autarch (ruler of everything) out of the blue because he'd "ingested" the living memories of all the rulers who came before him.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2019 at 5:01 PM, Dragons Are Real said:

 

As for the debate about Bran being king?  Anybody ever read God Emperor of Dune?  Some people hated the premise, but it always stuck with me.  I think Westeros may end up with God Emperor Bran for a thousand years.  Wonder who he'll keep reanimating so he'll have someone around to check reality for him, and eventually kill him?

I've read Dune a long time ago so correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea of creating the Golden Path was the running theme in the series whereas in ASOIAF it's not. That's why the idea of Bran comes out of nowhere as far as I'm concerned. ASOIAF is primary about the humans and their struggle with a healthy doze of the supernatural.  If this is the author's attempt at doing something similar as in Dune then it's a piss poor one at best.

Also, Bran definitely can't be compared with Leto II - he's at best a cheap knock off and since I'm a fan of Dune it makes me even more pissed off if this is what the author wants to do.

Edited by Ruki88

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23 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

Let's see.

Duncan Idaho

Dunk

:idea:

Brienne? As Dunk the Tall's possible descendant and potentially distant kin of Hodor!

And if the re-animations go wrong:

"I'm no lady"

"Ahm no ledy"

"Ah melody"

With apologies to both Dune fans and non-fans  :ack:

 

Legit Laughs.  Thanks for that.

8 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

I've read Dune a long time ago so correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea of creating the Golden Path was the running theme in the series whereas in ASOIAF it's not. That's why the idea of Bran comes out of nowhere as far as I'm concerned. ASOIAF is primary about the humans and their struggle with a healthy doze of the supernatural.  If this is the author's attempt at doing something similar as in Dune then it's a piss poor one at best.

Also, Bran definitely can't be compared with Leto II - he's at best a cheap knock off and since I'm a fan of Dune it makes me even more pissed off if this is what the author wants to do.

I guess I was personally speaking of where the show seemed to be slapping things into place.  I really don't think this is where the books will end up.  There's probably some disconnect between what George told them and what they heard (like Bran being King of the North or something) or they just flat out stopped giving even the tiniest of little bitty fucks and threw an ending together with a brofist and a "fuck yeah!"

Got notified of this over the weekend: http://chng.it/p2F2NxzsbZ

Kit Harrington requested Longclaw as his souvenir.  HBO's not letting him.

Now I don't agree with everything stated in that petition.  For instance, his character hardly defines integrity the way it played out on the show.  But I do agree with the general sentiment, and I remember him mentioning over the years that the sword actually meant something to him.  So, yeah, I side on wanting him to have it.  Because you know HBO's only possible plans are either selling it at auction or locking it up somewhere so they can sell it down the line as some fantastical piece of memorabilia supposedly lost to time.

In other HBO sucks news, watched the Deadwood reunion movie.  Apparently they hired the writers from the Wire to write the dialog because suddenly everybody was a shitbird.  They also managed to set up an amazingly detailed plot line, filled with promise, and only followed one thread to a conclusion, leaving all the rest up in the air with nary a sign any of it will resolve in a satisfactory way, if at all.  Granted, that one thread concluded in the best possible way, if not a happy one, but once getting over the bittersweet candy coating, under the shell there wasn't much substance.

It may be time to give up on HBO after all.

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