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[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussion, Final edition

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7 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

I think there's every chance the publishers let George slide on deadlines for the "real" novels because he's been doing so damn many side stories, graphic novels, and reference books for them.

I agree with your post and am also very worried that D&D's inept handling of his baby has traumatised him and sent him back to the drawing board. But whatever his situation is, I think his stature is so great that there's not a publisher in the world that can kick his ass and demand he meet a deadline. It's purely down to GRRM and his self-discipline and what's left of his inspiration.

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1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

I agree with your post and am also very worried that D&D's inept handling of his baby has traumatised him and sent him back to the drawing board.

This is possible, although GRRM has said on multiple occasions that he won't change his ending because people figured out the mystery or didn't like it. He views it as his story, not his story that he wants to make sure is popular with fans.  A rough transcription: 

"I want this to be my own story......What do I do when people have guessed the secrets I'm going to reveal? You really have 2 choices there, you can ignore it, proceed with your plan, despite the fact that some people know where you're going, or you can get all panicky and say oh people figured it out, that can't be, I'll have to change it, I'll have to go in a different direction, and I think some writers do that. I think that's always a mistake. If you've planned your book that the Butler did it, and someone on the internet figures out that the Butler did it, and you suddenly change in midstream and it was the chambermaid that did it, then you screw up the whole book...the clues you've planted are dead ends, and you have to introduce other clues, then you're retconning. It's a mess." 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I agree with your post and am also very worried that D&D's inept handling of his baby has traumatised him and sent him back to the drawing board. But whatever his situation is, I think his stature is so great that there's not a publisher in the world that can kick his ass and demand he meet a deadline. It's purely down to GRRM and his self-discipline and what's left of his inspiration.

 

42 minutes ago, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

This is possible, although GRRM has said on multiple occasions that he won't change his ending because people figured out the mystery or didn't like it. He views it as his story, not his story that he wants to make sure is popular with fans.  A rough transcription: 

 

I hope this is not splitting hairs, but this is not about people having guessed the ending, but rather everyone having had some sort of preview of the ending through another medium albeit executed horribly by a pair of hacks with the writing ability and emotional capacity of a pair of not terribly gifted or mature eighth-graders. Nonetheless, assuming that a few endpoints of major characters are generally where George might have guided the two goofs towards, this possibly gives George an unprecedented look at what his work might look like when finished. Don't think many major authors have been in this place before.

I do recognise this is not the original point being made, which I think was speculation about how Michaelengelo would react if he had part-painted the roof of the Sistine chapel and some below average graffiti artists spray painted the rest with their themes superficially resembling M's, making a mockery of the original work besides the fact that the graffiti is an eyesore in itself.  Do you paint it over and complete your work, or do you just walk away and sculpt David instead?

Edited by Ser Hedge

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58 minutes ago, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

This is possible, although GRRM has said on multiple occasions that he won't change his ending because people figured out the mystery or didn't like it. He views it as his story, not his story that he wants to make sure is popular with fans.  A rough transcription: 

"I want this to be my own story......What do I do when people have guessed the secrets I'm going to reveal? You really have 2 choices there, you can ignore it, proceed with your plan, despite the fact that some people know where you're going, or you can get all panicky and say oh people figured it out, that can't be, I'll have to change it, I'll have to go in a different direction, and I think some writers do that. I think that's always a mistake. If you've planned your book that the Butler did it, and someone on the internet figures out that the Butler did it, and you suddenly change in midstream and it was the chambermaid that did it, then you screw up the whole book...the clues you've planted are dead ends, and you have to introduce other clues, then you're retconning. It's a mess.

 

D&D see this and go, "That sounds awesome!  LET'S DO THAT!"  *HI FIVE*

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17 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

hope this is not splitting hairs, but this is not about people having guessed the ending, but rather everyone having had some sort of preview of the ending through another medium albeit executed horribly by a pair of hacks with the writing ability and emotional capacity of a pair of not terribly gifted or mature eighth-graders. Nonetheless, assuming that a few endpoints of major characters are generally where George might have guided the two goofs towards, this possibly gives George an unprecedented look at what his work might look like when finished. Don't think many major authors have been in this place before.

Certainly not splitting hairs - we're exploring different nuances of the same hypothetical situation. For what it's worth, my speculative suspicion is a third possibility: Martin could be sent back to his draft neither due to the ending being 'spoilt' or D&D ruining the quality, but something else. I'm thinking what if GRRM, in watching the series 8 realises that some of the things D&D have been slammed for are things that he himself told them. For example, maybe Martin had The Others defeated too abruptly in his plan and only in seeing episode 3 realises that it doesn't come across well and needs more work, or asking himself, 'Why have I sent Jon beyond the Wall whilst taking the Black - what was I thinking?'. I'm mean it's unlikely, but possible. 

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21 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

 

1 hour ago, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

This is possible, although GRRM has said on multiple occasions that he won't change his ending because people figured out the mystery or didn't like it. He views it as his story, not his story that he wants to make sure is popular with fans.  A rough transcription: 

 

I hope this is not splitting hairs, but this is not about people having guessed the ending, but rather everyone having had some sort of preview of the ending through another medium albeit executed horribly by a pair of hacks with the writing ability and emotional capacity of a pair of not terribly gifted or mature eighth-graders. Nonetheless, assuming that a few endpoints of major characters are generally where George might have guided the two goofs towards, this possibly gives George an unprecedented look at what his work might look like when finished. Don't think many major authors have been in this place before.

I do recognise this is not the original point being made, which I think was speculation about how Michaelengelo would react if he had part-painted the roof of the Sistine chapel and some below average graffiti artists spray painted the rest with their themes superficially resembling M's, making a mockery of the original work besides the fact that the graffiti is an eyesore in itself.  Do you paint it over and complete your work, or do you just walk away and sculpt David instead?

You make excellent (and hilarious) points, and I think you are correct in that this is a slightly different situation than the one GRRM was describing. I only brought it up because I think it's the best glimpse into how GRRM may view this current situation/shit show the story is in thanks to HBO. 

In every other situation I can think of, the book is ALWAYS completed before the visual medium of TV/movies begins, so the visual medium can make changes, not the author. So we're in unique, new territory with these below average graffiti artists finishing the Sistine chapel before Michaelengelo. I for one hope he paints over it and completes his work as originally intended. 

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Glidus woke up from his coma and reviewed ep. 6. (Must confess I find it hard to feel very ranty about ep. 6, not b/c it wasn't stupid, but b/c ep. 5 was so bad my outrage got all used up.)

 

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45 minutes ago, Count Balerion said:

Glidus woke up from his coma and reviewed ep. 6. (Must confess I find it hard to feel very ranty about ep. 6, not b/c it wasn't stupid, but b/c ep. 5 was so bad my outrage got all used up.)

 

LOLOL  Tyrion's pile of rubble containing 8 bricks and his siblings, HAHAHAHAHA

I've only started to take a peek at this, thanks.  And......it has already talked me out of that rewatch of the episode I've managed to avoid so far.....so DOUBLE THANKS!!! 

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25 minutes ago, Count Balerion said:

I'm just going to pretend ep. 5-6 never happened!

(I could go back to season 5; but am opposed to extremes.)

I'm somewhere at the end of ADWD mixed with the sample chapters of TWOW and then..........vague  ideas and endless possibilities. 

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9 hours ago, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

In every other situation I can think of, the book is ALWAYS completed before the visual medium of TV/movies begins, so the visual medium can make changes, not the author. So we're in unique, new territory

I give you, 'Margaret Atwood, The Testaments' - sequel to The Handmaid's Tale. The TV show's first series covered the original book. We're now into series 3 and the book sequel is out later this year.

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5 hours ago, Br16 said:

Of course, I don't really know you, however, I do know from some experience in the past that sometimes people who are smart (such as you) hold back because they fear what they have will be disregarded by laymen. 

I'm in full agreement in terms of writing. @House Cambodia shouldn't be afraid to challenge his readers; heck, his readers might actually learn something about Buddhist culture. Imagine that!

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10 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I give you, 'Margaret Atwood, The Testaments' - sequel to The Handmaid's Tale. The TV show's first series covered the original book. We're now into series 3 and the book sequel is out later this year.

My understanding on this one was that she originally felt the book covered the entire tale, and the show got her thinking about where it could go afterward because it was so good at asking those what if questions, then actually pushing them into interesting answers.  Kind of a different deal, especially considering the quality difference between where Handmaid's Tale appears to be heading, and where Game of Thrones ended up.

Not to say they don't have the option of bringing the stupid.  That's always an option in Hollywood.  but thus far they've resisted that temptation and built a believably dark and foreboding world with little glimpses of hope here or there.  The arrogance of the antagonists is utterly believable in its ferocity, and the righteous anger of the protagonist(s) is completely understandable.

I'm looking forward to watching the girls host their revolt at this point.  By the time we got to the end-run on Game of Thrones I was just hoping for it to be done.  Here I'm looking forward to watching what happens.

Guess I went off there.  Just seems a shame to compare the two television shows at this point.  It'd be like comparing Firefly to some syfy original programming.  Two different worlds of quality.

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1 hour ago, Dragons Are Real said:

Guess I went off there.  Just seems a shame to compare the two television shows at this point.  It'd be like comparing Firefly to some syfy original programming.  Two different worlds of quality.

I think it's just that shows setup an expectation for fans. GoT was extremely high quality for 4 seasons, and kind-of-mostly-OK for seasons 5-6...for me, this kept my own personal hype and expectations super high, which is why I'm STILL SO DISAPPOINTED with how it has ended. Seasons 7-8 are just total garbage. So, anyways, its also a shame to compare the ending of GoT to the beginning at this point... very, very different in terms of quality. 

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4 hours ago, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

I think it's just that shows setup an expectation for fans. GoT was extremely high quality for 4 seasons, and kind-of-mostly-OK for seasons 5-6...for me, this kept my own personal hype and expectations super high, which is why I'm STILL SO DISAPPOINTED with how it has ended. Seasons 7-8 are just total garbage. So, anyways, its also a shame to compare the ending of GoT to the beginning at this point... very, very different in terms of quality. 

I agree wholeheartedly.  I also think season seven and eight (and to a lesser extent anything after season four) makes rewatchability plummet through the floor.  I have zero desire to watch the actual quality seasons of GoT after seeing where they end up taking us.  The amazing beginning isn't just unjustified by the ending, it's utterly destroyed by it.

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20 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

LOLOL  Tyrion's pile of rubble containing 8 bricks and his siblings, HAHAHAHAHA

Heh...yeah...when watching that scene (and almost assuredly the only time I will ever watch it) I couldn't help thinking "Wait!  You mean Jaime and Cercei only had to take about ten steps in any direction to avoid all those falling stones?!!  Wha...?"  It looked like they would have had to deliberately try to be buried under that.  Just more of that attention to detail we came to know:rolleyes:

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20 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Anyone see that meme about 'Cersei in Season 8'? 

It was the aforementioned 8 bricks, half covering a hand holding a glass of wine. Upright.

And without spilling! :cheers:

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36 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Anyone see that meme about 'Cersei in Season 8'? 

It was the aforementioned 8 bricks, half covering a hand holding a glass of wine. Upright.

 

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And without spilling! :cheers:

NO  I haven't seen that one. 

TEASERS, I tell ya!!  :tantrum::lmao:

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