[Spoilers] Episode 806 Discussion

[Zorral]

I can't criticize these primary character actors for refusing to go along with the criticisms of GOT, and particularly the final season.

They went through 8 grueling years of making this project, right along with all the technicians and other people who make such project possible.  Grueling is probably even a light word to describe what they all went through -- together.

Yah.  8 / EIGHT YEARS.  That's a really long run for tv, generally speaking.  And some of the actors like Sophie Turner were barely into adolescence when they began this extended experience, which dominated their lives for over 8 years.

They have BONDED, like people who gone through war and battle together for 8 years.  They are not about to turn on their leaders.

They naturally feel anger about the criticisms, and, very hurt, which is more than understandable.

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Zorral

[ARYa_Nym]

I wonder if the Dornish prince is supposed to be a stand-in for Arianne's little brother in the books. 

[Ser Lepus]

10 hours ago, Vashon said:

I just realized something. Old Town is still intact, and there is nothing preventing the Faith of the Seven from reviving its militant orders. And they still have the Maesters spying on everyone and poisoning away all potential problems and putting propaganda directly into the minds of young nobles.

Looks like the Faith wins, by outlasting everyone, and Old Town will come to dominate Westeros again, and this time there won't even be strong regional monarchs/paramounts to oppose them. The only large scale military that will exist will be the Faith's, and they will probably re-introduce Lord's Right to First Night to puff up the number of bastards and surplus males.

I guess the lesson here is, if you war against a religion and endeavor to de-fang it that isn't good enough, because that religion will just outlast you.

The Faith doesn't control the Maesters.

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Is Bronn literate? 

Can he read or write? How is he going to manage the Realm's accounting?

The Master of Coin has a staff, he'll have other people do it, he'll simply oversee it.  I doubt he'll be the first Small Council member who could not read or delegated most of his responsibilities to his underlings.

 

[darksellsword]

10 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Is Bronn literate? 

Can he read or write? How is he going to manage the Realm's accounting?

If you cast your mind back to season 2 you will remember Bronn and Tyrion have that that exchange about the correct pronunciation of Archmaester ch'yvonthan yes it appears as if Bronn is literate.It actually opens up the question how Bronn learned to read. The show established through Tywin Lannister and Aryas interaction at Harrenhal that it is unusual for low born small folk to read. Why do I bother, it's probably an unintentional plothole  per usual with D&D

Edited May 22, 2019 by darksellsword

[Rory Snow]

12 hours ago, darksellsword said:

If it all comes across as whiney, piss and moan why do you read these forums? if you don't like it don't read it, see what I did there? I think the show has earned some legitimate criticism. If fans want to air their complaint through a petition then they have that right, they were the ones that financed the show from the beginning until its end.

I too think the show has earned some legitimate criticism which is why I come here and comment here. But I try to also have a degree of realistic understanding. Game of Thrones is a massive undertaking, something that expansive is going to have ups and downs, good stuff and bad. Not many viewers are going to like every moment of every episode. Coming to forums like this to discuss our likes and dislikes can be informative and entertaining which is why we do it. But what I'm not going to do is stomp my feet, hold my breath and go on a hunger strike until the writers do things the way that "Rory Snow" thinks they should be done. I accept that not every bit is going to suit my personal tastes. It's their show, it's their story. I can watch it or I can watch something else. I don't tell McDonalds how to flip their burgers either, if I don't like them I just go to a different restaurant. Do fans have "the right" to file a petition? Sure they do. But once again they have to accept the good with the bad. The good is by filing a petition they get heard and people like us give them the attention they crave, the bad is they have to act like petulant children screaming "I want, I want" in order to be heard. Maybe it isn't an act, maybe they actually have such a sense of entitlement that they expect the world to cater to them, in which case I doubt this is their 1st petition or their last.

[Aderyn]

8 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

I too think the show has earned some legitimate criticism which is why I come here and comment here. But I try to also have a degree of realistic understanding. Game of Thrones is a massive undertaking, something that expansive is going to have ups and downs, good stuff and bad. Not many viewers are going to like every moment of every episode. Coming to forums like this to discuss our likes and dislikes can be informative and entertaining which is why we do it. But what I'm not going to do is stomp my feet, hold my breath and go on a hunger strike until the writers do things the way that "Rory Snow" thinks they should be done. I accept that not every bit is going to suit my personal tastes. It's their show, it's their story. I can watch it or I can watch something else. I don't tell McDonalds how to flip their burgers either, if I don't like them I just go to a different restaurant. Do fans have "the right" to file a petition? Sure they do. But once again they have to accept the good with the bad. The good is by filing a petition they get heard and people like us give them the attention they crave, the bad is they have to act like petulant children screaming "I want, I want" in order to be heard. Maybe it isn't an act, maybe they actually have such a sense of entitlement that they expect the world to cater to them, in which case I doubt this is their 1st petition or their last.

This!

We have every right to criticize, complain and nitpick. We all have our ideas for how things could have been done better. But we are not the ones doing this massive, costly, years-in-the-making show. When GRRM gave HBO permission for the adaptation, he acknowledged that it will be their adaptation, not his. Back then, we acknowledged it too. And we did that again after the show surpassed the books. When an expanding story hits uncharted territories, what can you expect? Of course there will be a bunch of disappointments. But there are also so many good things about this show that carried all the way to the end. And that is exactly why it's unfair and disrespectful of anyone to suggest that there should be a second attempt at finishing it. It's not just about D&D and their individual blunders, there have been hundreds or thousands of people involved in the making of this show over time and these people have overwhelmingly done a fucking outstanding job. The actors most of all So if someone like Sophie Turner goes on to say that it's rude of us to demand for better, she has every reason to do so.

That's not to say people can't go on and sign some ridiculous petition. Sure, they also have a right to do that, but they should really question their motives for doing so. The ending was disappointing - so what? A petition is not going to get D&D to change anything, it's not going to bruise their egos, it's going to get some attention for a while but then it'll simply be ignored because that's how you deal with whining. People are just channeling out their frustration in the only way anyone knows how to do it these days - online. What I don't understand is why some would choose a petition, when the most fruitful way to deal with both negative and positive reactions would be in places like this forum. It's just "me, me, me" and it's really quite sad, it's petty and childish and shows how the concept of entitlement is just spreading like rot (I mean just stop and think about it for a second, we are talking about a fucking TV show, no matter how brilliant). It's exactly the kind of attitude that some readers show towards GRRM when they complain about him not writing fast enough. It's the exact same sense of entitlement. But the dust will settle eventually and life will go on, and it will definitely be good to take a break from this series for a while.

[Aderyn]

On 5/20/2019 at 5:17 AM, Ellimental said:

I was wondering that. And now Sansa is Queen in the North, too. She could pardon him,

I don't think Jon would have accepted a pardon. I also agree with those who said that it would have been more like him to offer to go to the Wall himself. We should have also seen his public confession on-screen at the Dragonpit, would have been a nice nod to Baelor.

On 5/20/2019 at 5:34 AM, Anthony Pirtle said:

Also, I think it's hilarious that "the new prince of Dorne" still never got a name.

Maybe they didn't even know what to call him, a final F U for the Dornish knot that was too much for them from the start.

On 5/20/2019 at 7:15 PM, EProduc said:

And then in the end she gets killed by her own lover that she trusted (which was understandable and necessary cause she would've become a tyrant but still..) and will forever be remembered as a mad queen that burned a whole city, while she did so many good things. 

Yeah I get that, it certainly is tragic. But in a way I think that Dany going down as the ultimate Mad Queen as well as Tyrion not even being included in the brand new Westerosi chronicle is a nice counterargument for the point Tyrion makes about stories uniting everyone. Writing history is a form of storytelling, perhaps the most powerful kind of storytelling since historians have the power to erase whole lives by excluding or discrediting them and by shaping the personality, actions and motivations of a historical figure, essentially determining if they land in the “good” or the “evil” basket. So while they can unite people, histories can certainly also divide them based on whose truth gets to be told.

On 5/20/2019 at 8:17 PM, riffwraith said:

Does it bother anyone that Bronn is now a member of the SC, after threatening the lives of Jamie and Tyrion, with there being no making amends be tween he and Tyrion? I mean, the last time we saw Bronn, he had a crossbow pointed at the two of them, and actually fired a warning shot. The next time we see him, all is honkey-dorey w/Tyrion???

Yeah certainly the idea of Bronn in the Small Council seems like a reach (see what I did there?). But then again, it suddenly seems like Westeros is running low on important lords and ladies. Maybe Tyrion just wanted to set things right, as he was tasked by Bran, and one of the first things he did was make sure Bronn got his due and some more. I guess getting his title and castle must have really rubbed Bronn the right way since the last time we saw him, he really seemed like he was done serving the Lannisters. Then again, that's what lordship does to people, I guess... I do have a feeling though that with Bronn serving as Master of Coin, Tyrion will still be setting things right until he reaches that ripe age of 80 he's so fond of. 

[Vashon]

3 hours ago, Aderyn said:

This!

We have every right to criticize, complain and nitpick. We all have our ideas for how things could have been done better. But we are not the ones doing this massive, costly, years-in-the-making show. it's rude of us to demand for better, she has every reason to do so.

No. The very fact that they have all the resources they do and chose to make several giant rivers of "YAAAAS SLAY QUEEN" fecal runoff makes it all the more unforgivable. They could have stopped at season 7, did a timeskip and then a sequel series. They could have done something other than "WHORES AND WHORE SPAWN COUP A KANG DUMB" with Dorne. They could have, and should have, crapped all over "Battle of the Bastards and Cleganebowl". Its been crap since season 5, it just took normie scum this long to understand that.

 

EDIT: There was nothing preventing the Vale from breaking off as well, or Dorne. Dorne had been apart in fact since Aerys died, the Vale since Jon Arryn died. The North was a ruined and STILL couldn't be held by foreign conquerors, not during winter. The entire idea, in the show, of the seven kingdoms, or six, remaining a united political unit is a farce

Edited May 22, 2019 by Vashon

[Zorral]

I predicted Bronn would be part of the ruling circle because he is very smart.  He's a smart alec too, which rather concealed how smart he really was, and how much he understood.  There's a reason he and Tyrion understood each other so well.  They shared intelligence and curiosity as well as the fondness for whores, coin and wine.

That he's made Master of Coin makes a huge amount of sense (and he certainly isn't any less qualified than either Tyrion or Littlefinger were).  He's done darned well throughout the series at finding gold . . . .

Also when regimes change, historically, the new rulers surround themselves with competent figures (and favorites) from outside the old ruling houses of nobility.  This ensures their rise and rank and wealth is dependent entirely on the new rulers, which prevents them making the alliances the old nobility makes among itself.  The old nobility despises these figures. They stay loyal to the king and don't plot against him.  As did certain Plantagenets like Edward I before them, new dynasty Tudors, Henry VII and VIII did a lot of that, and the old nobility really hated that because they knew the "New Men" like Thomas Cromwell were quite aware of these points.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Zorral

[Giskard Reventlov]

WTF happened to Dothraki ?

Should we believe that after Daenerys was murdered they did  not kill Jon immediately and then went about their business ? Which is pillaging, rape, murder...etc throughout the Westeros?

Instead they waited meekly for months to be transfered back to Essos,so they can go about their business there ?

[Prince of the North]

On 5/21/2019 at 1:28 PM, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Is Bronn literate? 

Can he read or write? How is he going to manage the Realm's accounting?

 

17 hours ago, darksellsword said:

If you cast your mind back to season 2 you will remember Bronn and Tyrion have that that exchange about the correct pronunciation of Archmaester ch'yvonthan yes it appears as if Bronn is literate.It actually opens up the question how Bronn learned to read. The show established through Tywin Lannister and Aryas interaction at Harrenhal that it is unusual for low born small folk to read. Why do I bother, it's probably an unintentional plothole  per usual with D&D

Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and assume Bronn is illiterate.  I mean, we all remember his reaction upon hearing that The Eyrie is "impregnable", right?! 

[Rory Snow]

7 hours ago, Giskard Reventlov said:

WTF happened to Dothraki ?

Should we believe that after Daenerys was murdered they did  not kill Jon immediately and then went about their business ? Which is pillaging, rape, murder...etc throughout the Westeros?

Instead they waited meekly for months to be transfered back to Essos,so they can go about their business there ?

The first thought would be that the Dothraki would kill Jon immediately. But this is the Dothraki, they're a strange group. Not entirely sure how the Dothraki handle succession but since Jon killed the Khaleesi, wouldn't he then become the new Khal? And wouldn't Dany's blood riders have to kill themselves upon her death? Again, not super sure how all that works.

Aside from all that, It seemed like D&D really had no idea what to do with the Dothraki once they got to Westeros. Other than attacking the wagon train from Highgarden they were little more than mounted extras. 

[Kaapstad]

On 5/20/2019 at 10:38 PM, EProduc said:

Arya leaving for West of Westeros was a good end to her story but with Jon going north of the wall and Bran in the capital they're just separate again and idk I really wanted them to stick together in Winterfell... 

and I know it's game of thrones and there aren't happy endings but idk they all were separated for so many years and got through so many bad things only to get reunited and then leave each other again, forever... The ending is just really bittersweet isn't it.. 

In my opinion, after a few years, Jon will still visit Sansa in Winterfell. This exile is self imposed and after a few years he would like to live with his family. Arya is gone though. That’s for sure. 

[Ser Lepus]

I have realized that in the books BIIIIIIIIIG SPOOOOOOOOOOILEEEEEEER!!!!

Quote

 

 

 

 

It is likely that Sansa will rule the Vale and Rickon the North, but D&D have removed so many plotlines that they had to settle for Rickon dying and Sansa ruling the North...

 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Ser Lepus

[gullyfoyle]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 11:05 AM, Kyll.Ing. said:

I kind of liked the ending. Maybe not spectacular, but it wrapped things up neatly overall. Most of what I feel has been said by others in the thread already. A few random thoughts, though:

• What fell over King's Landing was clearly snow, not ash. You saw some of it hit Daenerys's face and melt. Had it been ash, the whole epilogue would consist of characters croaking over with pneumonia and lung cancer. Which, admittedly, would have made for quite a spectacle.
• I think the writers kinda forgot how many balls Sam had in the air. Gilly and the kids are not seen, there's the question of his inheritance to sort out, he has this Maester's degree he's been working on (wonder how he'll be welcomed in the Citadel again?), as the last surviving member of the Night's Watch he probably had some duties to clear up there too... and then he's made Grand Maester as well. Sam's various plot threads were just cut off and replaced with a new one, it seems.
• The guys who escort Jon to the wall were presumably the first two recruits to the new Watch. I can imagine there being a few Northern soldiers who lost their families in the battle for Winterfell (or before it), and had nothing to go back to. The Night's Watch would at least offer a roof, beds and food.
• That unknown lord at the seat was presumably from the Westerlands, which had no ruling family save for the prisoner Tyrion. As far as I know, Lannisport was not touched in the show, so he could theoretically be a Lannisport Lannister.
• It's strange that the moniker "the Six Kingdoms" was adopted. Iron Islands, Westerlands (Unknown), Reach (Bronn), Riverlands (Tully), Stormlands (Gendry), Vale (Robin) and Dorne (Unnamed prince) make seven. There were always more than seven kingdoms in Westeros, apart from that specific time right before Aegon's Conquest. With the North and Crownlands counted too, there actually were nine. 
• The Night's Watch didn't serve as an effective guard force at the start of the series, it owed all its protective capability to the Wall. It arguably didn't serve the purpose of guarding the Seven Kingdoms particularly well in the first place, not for a few centuries, at least, and probably would carry on just the same without having to man the Wall other than for tradition's sake. Jon was effectively elected to lead a prison colony, and that's what he was sent back to do now.
• That being said, with the White Walkers gone and the Wildlings being friendly, he has a lot more room to define the mission of the Watch, and presumably more personal freedom than, say, Mormont had. He could pick the most capable-looking fellow among his new recruits, and tell him "You have the Wall while I go with the Voluntary Extended Ranger Force to establish some self-sustaining forward bases in the newly freed territories. It might take a few decades, but you guys can probably manage fine in my absence." There is some precedence for a Night's Watch presence north of the Wall, with the Fist of the First Men being an abandoned fort up there. Jon is merely surveying the northern territories along with some natives to guide him, a task that might go on for the rest of his life, and which he might fail to write a report about afterwards.

There's really a ton of loose ends and new plot threads that could be taken up if anyone is interested in a sequel series, or a big budget movie (hint, hint).

- Arya's voyage into the unknown West. Have her visit mysterious islands (ala Sinbad or Prince Caspian), a Western continent (maybe an Aztec/Mayan theme in keeping with GRRM's partial mirroring of the real medieval world) or all the way round the world to Asshai-by-the-Shadow. There are mermaids and kraken, and perhaps the Faceless Men still pursue her.

- Jon and/or Tormund at the Wall and in the Lands Beyond. Must be a power vacuum among the free folk with so many dead or moved south. Will there be another King Beyond the Wall or just chieftains of the various clans of wildlings, Thenn, Hornfoots, cannibal ice-river tribes, Walrus-men f the Frozen Shore etc. There's also giants, dire wolves, skin changers, the Children of the Forest, cave dwellers who worship dark underground gods, etc.

- Lots of intrigue in Westeros proper. Bran, Tyrion, Bronn, Gendry and Yara's efforts to consolidate rule (and with what armies). Dorne or other kingdoms may seek independence. The mountain clans of the Vale as well. And who rules the Frey lands and the Westerlands, will Edmure Tully and whatever Lannister is in power (Genna?) compete for power? If Brienne is pregnant with Jamie's son he might have a claim if Tyrion is too busy as Hand. There could also be religious conflict between the Faith Militant, supporters of the old gods and R'hllor.

- Nymeria is still alive, ravaging the Riverlands apparently, perhaps Arya could try to find her if she returns from voyaging. Drogon is still out there too. Is he (?) capable of bearing more dragons, or are there more eggs around that could be hatched? Jon, Bran, Tyrion or some unknown with Targaryen blood could try to find him. And maybe Rhaegal's not dead after all, dragons are pretty tough, even a bolt through the head might not do it.

Edited May 23, 2019 by gullyfoyle

[Grey_Ghost]

Aside to the Fresh Prince of Dorne, who were those 4 unknown lords? 

[Vashon]

Or Arya dies in the open, her plotshields failing her without the camera following here

[Gendelsdottir]

12 hours ago, Grey_Ghost said:

Aside to the Fresh Prince of Dorne, who were those 4 unknown lords? 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6027920/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

(And it's a pain that it's necessary to look it up, since the show didn't explain.)

[darksellsword]

I was just thinking about how a few very minor changes to the series penultimate and finale episodes would've left fans far more satisfied. What if Yara Greyjoy had been involved in the attack at kingslanding, it would've mitigated the deus ex machina element of Daenerys attacking the ships without getting hit, well to some extent. If Jaime had led Cersei into a Dead end under the red keep with Dothraki closing in realizing that they would most likely rape and kill Cersei Jaime mercy kills her by strangulation before dying of his wounds. I would remove the line where Jaime says he never cared for the innocent and also that line from Euron "I'm the man that killed Jaime Lannister" If Yara were to witness Jon killing Daenerys from a distance and arrest him after Drogon flew away with Daenerys it would make far more sense in terms of why Jon wasn't killed. If Jon is brought before the council of Westerosi lords instead of Tyrion. If at this point Bran tells Jon that the NightKing will come back that it's an unbreakable spell. Jon names Bran as his heir and abdicates the throne to him. Bran in turn could name Sansa as Wardeness of the North. Jon decides of his own volition that his place is in the Nights watch.