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[Spoilers] Episode 806 Discussion

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Historically elective Kingships with the franchise restricted to high nobles were pretty disastrous. In general they resulted in sutuations where the nobility ran roughshod over the commoners and weak states. The Holy Roman Empire, Poland and Hungary are all examples.

Danys policies in Slavers Bay were more likely to result in something workable. Democracy but with a circuit breaker. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Meh, bland and unsatisfying.

I wasnt going to write anything about this ending but I guess it will stand as some kind of catharsis.

Best scene of the episode was Drogon burning the Iron Throne.  If Dany doesnt have it no one does.  Her appearing with dragon wings was excellent also but a little vampiric.  She also changed from the White Queens clothes into Darth Vaders outfit further showing her dark side.

Scenes choosing Bran (come on, shouldnt he be underground somewhere?) as King and around the conference table were downright cartoonish.  Bronn magically reappears when the fighting is over.

At least tyrion didnt find Cercei alive, broken and in such pain he strangles her to put her out of her misery fulfilling the prophesy like I expected they were going to do.

Jon gets screwed and not like he was.  Better scene and more faithful to the series would have been her killing him first while kissing or even them killing each other if they wanted the same conclusion. 

Grayworm should have been offed.  He snapped, developed a war face and blindly followed orders.  I would not want to be a subject of his.

Who repaired the Wall and why do they even need a Night Watch now?  Ghost and jon for the shippers and suddenly Tormond has been struck mute.

I feel GRRM would not approve of this drivel.  Maybe they should have just skipped this year like Martin has done with the last books.  Certainly was better up to the end of the last one.

Edited by Ser Graymax

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Many critics seem to sell short the show's concluding portrayal of its most magical element: the dragons. Drogon, the most potent of the three -- the airborne WMD that criss-crossed Kings Landing and leveled the city -- arose in anguish, not anger, and funneled the ancient, unfathomable intelligence of his species, correctly destroying the focal symbol of power and corruption that had dragged Daenerys to her death. Drogon melted the throne that his ancestors had created, vaporizing it before Jon even had a second to consider his own claim to power. The melting of the throne had been predicted, but seeing done in an act of independent volition and reptilian wisdom - rather than at the command of a human "master" -- sharply illuminated the role and psychology of the dragon species. Just as that starts to sink in, Drogon scoops up Dany and abandons Westeros altogether. Where to? Also, can Drogon lay eggs? And do dragons have the power to resurrect their symbiotes? Or is he simply done with it all, leaving the humans to their follies?

Worked for me.

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5 hours ago, briantw said:

I think the fates of the Starks will all be the same, or at least similar.  Just the paths to get there less shitty.

I think the fates of Jaime and Cersei will be radically different.  I think D&D fell in love with Lena and changed her end game because of it.

 

4 hours ago, Artcasur said:

 

I do think John would have stand against Danny but I can see him stabbing her like that. He has always been the one who resembles the most to lord Eddard, and he has show to have the same values carrying out the sentences by himself. The stabbing scene was more in the likes of Jaime Lannister the a kid rise by lord Eddard Stark

I actually thought the Jon/Dany stabbing scene was more suited to Jaime/Cersei. I didn’t really feel the sense of tragedy because Jon has only briefly loved Dany. Jaime stabbing Cersei is what I suspect will happen in the books, and it will be very sad because we know that he’s loved her all his life.

5 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Benioff and Weiss make an attempt to put a narrative justification for Dany's action in Tyrions mouth with the stuff about the slavers, the Mereenese nobles and the Khals. And it just made me even more angry about the face heel turn they inflicted on Dany. To try and justify the character turn as if these examples foreshadowed what happened next is to add an absurd moral equivalence to the steaming pile that they they have made of this season. Just to take the liberation of Astapor as an example - the orders where extremely specific, harm no child, only attack the masters. It seriously is not anything like the burning of a city after it's surrender - which of course the characters in world knew - Tyrion and Varys joined after most of these acts and had no problem until an episode ago, when suddenly Varys is required to worry about a mad Queen. This is ret conning and for all the incredible cinematography and acting and productions values the end became hollow because how spectaculalry they messed up both the NK story and Dany's arc.

I think the fact that those other killings were not a problem for Tyrion and us was exactly the point. Killing the slaver and reneging on the bargain was dishonorable but we didn’t care because he was a slaver. Same with the masters who were crucified—they were just awful. It reminds me of the “first they came for...” posts that you see all the time. Of course, some people have questioned Dany’s acts right from the beginning, so my comment doesn’t apply to everyone.

 

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3 minutes ago, nara said:

I actually thought the Jon/Dany stabbing scene was more suited to Jaime/Cersei. I didn’t really feel the sense of tragedy because Jon has only briefly loved Dany. Jaime stabbing Cersei is what I suspect will happen in the books, and it will be very sad because we know that he’s loved her all his life.

But no way could the showrunners have gotten away with 2 identical stabby scenes like that. I'd like to have seen her wildfire rage down the underground passage and burn her.

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20 minutes ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Historically elective Kingships with the franchise restricted to high nobles were pretty disastrous. In general they resulted in sutuations where the nobility ran roughshod over the commoners and weak states. The Holy Roman Empire, Poland and Hungary are all examples.

Danys policies in Slavers Bay were more likely to result in something workable. Democracy but with a circuit breaker. 

 

...then you probably know that historically Democracy never worked for a long time.

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27 minutes ago, VladLXXXI said:

...then you probably know that historically Democracy never worked for a long time.

It was not very clearly described in show but the arrangement in Mereen sounded more like a republic than Athenian demos. A Republic with a temporary dictator. This was a very successful form historically, from Mediterranean city states - Roman, Pheoneican and Greek to Italian and German and Baltic States in the high middle ages and Rennaissance to the Dutch Republic.  

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Bill Simmons: "Jon Snow is on the Knicks with KD and Kemba and then gets traded to the Timberwolves and has to live outdoors in Minnesota"

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4 minutes ago, Johan Wehtje said:

It was not very clearly described in show but the arrangement in Mereen sounded more like a republic than Athenian demos. A Republic with a temporary dictator. This was a very successful form historically, from Mediterranean city states - Roman, Pheoneican and Greek to Italian and German and Baltic States in the high middle ages and Rennaissance to the Dutch Republic.  

Agree. But I wouldnt call these states democratic. The basic principle - The Right to vote was limited. They werent republic in the sense of the word we know it nowadays. Can really compare Athenian"democracy" or Roman Republic to the modern standarts. They were still closer to oligarchy with only the choosen citizens or groups were allowed to rule the state.

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Astromech said:

I think Drogon ate Dany.

Nah, dragons only eat cooked meat, and show Dany can’t burn. ;)

Edited by Nictarion

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7 minutes ago, Astromech said:

I think Drogon ate Dany.

....the problem is...She is uncookable.  Really low standart after juicy and crispy Varys.

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6 hours ago, Artcasur said:

Yes, but they weren’t supposed tu be unburn neither, but as dragons came back with the red magic so does magic, and the magic in their blood? 

Any way I think it was more of a Brad thing, and that’s the reason of the weird line about he finding drogon at the end; to remind the viewer that he can even warg into a dragon

As far as we know no one can warg into a dragon. You can only warg in lower intelligence beings and dragons are supposed to be highly intelligent. When the North was conquered no one could do it or the outcome might have been different. 

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51 minutes ago, nara said:

 

I actually thought the Jon/Dany stabbing scene was more suited to Jaime/Cersei. I didn’t really feel the sense of tragedy because Jon has only briefly loved Dany. Jaime stabbing Cersei is what I suspect will happen in the books, and it will be very sad because we know that he’s loved her all his life.

I think the fact that those other killings were not a problem for Tyrion and us was exactly the point. Killing the slaver and reneging on the bargain was dishonorable but we didn’t care because he was a slaver. Same with the masters who were crucified—they were just awful. It reminds me of the “first they came for...” posts that you see all the time. Of course, some people have questioned Dany’s acts right from the beginning, so my comment doesn’t apply to everyone.

 

But that's the thing - there isn't a moral equivalence - not really in our world (which is why we cheered) and most definitely not in the world of GOT. Surely it is not hard to see that overthrowing what was going on in Astapor is not only not connected to, but diametrically the opposite of doing the lawnmower with Dragonfire on a city packed with the refugees of a continent? It's holding Dany to the moral standards of pacifism in a world where such a concept is completely alien. It's the sort of thing that does help clarify how bankrupt pacifism can be if it is seriously argued that the right and sane thing to do in Astapor, when you have the power to change it is to leave it just the way it is.

The "first they came for" shctick only works here if you honestly think that "first they came for the slavers" is a sentence that ends with then they came for everyone.

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Some random thoughts:

  • so those bookmakers saw right about Bran ending up king... ah, well played to them, how did they do ??
  • so happy for my man Davos. Dude kinda took the social elevator
  • ...and so did Bronn actually. But I actually dislike Bronn since that crossbow moment
  • that Frodo-like ending for Arya was long predicted, but was still delightful to watch
  • how did Drogon not burn Jon to the ground after he killed his mom?? Ah, well, Targ blood etc I guess...
  • how did they handle weather in this ep ?? At the beginning it's clear, then there's snow everywhere, then a few "weeks" later it's summer again ?? And wasn't the WW extinction meant to bring back some balance to the rythm of seasons ?
  • isn't Davos aware of the Unsullied being eunuch? His proposal of them filling an empty Reach with new generations of Unsullied babies felt so nonsensical lol
  • why do they think they'll absolutely need a Master of Whisperers though? Not sure this function actually helps the regime, not to mention it leds to the MoW being an absolute schemer lol
  • Jon basically brokes his NW vows for the 2nd time, what a champion.
  • this Sansa ending isn't going to please our resident anti-Sansa activists lol
  • so Brienne really thought it was outright necessary to mention that Jaime was rock wrecked by Robb at the Whispering Wood ? lol 
  • so the Unsullied are heading to Naath... are they aware that there are foreigners-killing butterflies out there ?
  • this vision Dany had at the House of Undying back in S2, was so perfectly fullfiled. Reach the throne, but instead reach her gone Khal & baby in the fields of death.
  • Jon's storyline, as much criticized as he may be, makes sense IMO. He's in eternal conflict between love & duty... as is everyone in this story. I think it's one of the rare GRRM elements of writing that D&D successfully implemented in their show.
  • Tyrion throwing his Hand badge down the stairs was so badass. Even more badass that Ned doing so with Robert back in S1. I hope Tyrion will experience less difficulties with Bran in the future lol (at least this King is a bit less adventurous than Robert & Dany, if anything)
  • so those Northerners just can't stop yelling " [something] IN THE NORTH !!!" ,right ? :D

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7 minutes ago, Ser Glendon Fireball said:

Some random thoughts:

  • so those bookmakers saw right about Bran ending up king... ah, well played to them, how did they do ??
  • so happy for my man Davos. Dude kinda took the social elevator
  • ...and so did Bronn actually. But I actually dislike Bronn since that crossbow moment
  • that Frodo-like ending for Arya was long predicted, but was still delightful to watch
  • how did Drogon not burn Jon to the ground after he killed his mom?? Ah, well, Targ blood etc I guess...
  • how did they handle weather in this ep ?? At the beginning it's clear, then there's snow everywhere, then a few "weeks" later it's summer again ?? And wasn't the WW extinction meant to bring back some balance to the rythm of seasons ?
  • isn't Davos aware of the Unsullied being eunuch? His proposal of them filling an empty Reach with new generations of Unsullied babies felt so nonsensical lol
  • why do they think they'll absolutely need a Master of Whisperers though? Not sure this function actually helps the regime, not to mention it leds to the MoW being an absolute schemer lol
  • Jon basically brokes his NW vows for the 2nd time, what a champion.
  • this Sansa ending isn't going to please our resident anti-Sansa activists lol
  • so Brienne really thought it was outright necessary to mention that Jaime was rock wrecked by Robb at the Whispering Wood ? lol 
  • so the Unsullied are heading to Naath... are they aware that there are foreigners-killing butterflies out there ?
  • this vision Dany had at the House of Undying back in S2, was so perfectly fullfiled. Reach the throne, but instead reach her gone Khal & baby in the fields of death.
  • Jon's storyline, as much criticized as he may be, makes sense IMO. He's in eternal conflict between love & duty... as is everyone in this story. I think it's one of the rare GRRM elements of writing that D&D successfully implemented in their show.
  • Tyrion throwing his Hand badge down the stairs was so badass. Even more badass that Ned doing so with Robert back in S1. I hope Tyrion will experience less difficulties with Bran in the future lol (at least this King is a bit less adventurous than Robert & Dany, if anything)
  • so those Northerners just can't stop yelling " [something] IN THE NORTH !!!" ,right ? :D

The snow at the beginning was ash. 

When Jon and the wildlings pass the Wall, there is a green plant shooting up out of the ground. So spring is coming. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Bran the Shipper said:

I liked this episode better than I thought I would.  Though that is almost entirely because I'm interpreting the events in a different direction than I think the show intends.  But hey, death of the author and all that.

So while I think we are supposed to be happy that our Stark heroes got their happy endings, I see the ending in more of a tragic light. 

Bran is proven to have manipulated everyone so that he could be king.  I always knew he used people as tools e.g. Hodor, but he has become a master of the game of thrones.  Manipulating Jon and Tyrion and well, pretty much everyone he spoke with to place himself into the position where everyone votes for him to be king.

And as king he immediately (well technically he isn't even king yet) shows his nepotism by allowing Sansa to become Queen in the North.  He also allows Jon to take the black which results in him becoming the King Beyond the Wall (effectively if not in reality).

And while Westeros now has an elective monarchy, since it is only the great lords who get to vote, we no longer even have the chance of having a king who prioritizes the small folk over the lords.  Which we could have had in a traditional monarchy.  Though at least we won't be getting a truly awful king who can only be removed by rebellion.  Though that doesn't mean there will be lasting peace since by letting the North break away they set up a terrible precedent.  Either future kings allow kingdoms to break off whenever they want or go to war with the North to bring it back into the fold and show that it only got away with it for a time because of Bran's nepotism.

We prove that even though Dany went too far in The Bells episode, she did not go mad.  She still was working towards her goal of breaking the wheel, and she didn't intend to stop until the whole world was free.  But she is killed before she could because Tyrion, in an attempt to save his own skin, convinces Jon that he needs to kill her lest she execute Sansa and Arya.  I think that how Drogon responds to her death proves that she was a good person.  Did he give in to his rage over her death and kill Jon?  No, he mourned the death of his mother and then tried to fulfill his mother's wish for a better world by breaking the wheel in the best way a dragon can.  Afterwards he peacefully flew off with his mother to bring her to a better place.  If such gentleness could be displayed in a creature of fire incarnate, you have to praise his mom for her good influence.

This is literally the only way this ending makes either narrative or practical sense. I'm still heartbroken over what could have been an amazing Shakespearean tragedy or a lesson in how War Never Changes. But your headcanon will be the only thing saving future rewatches for me.

Overall, there are some great scenes in this episode (Darth Dany's speech, Tyrion manipulating Jon, Sansa's coronation), and I can see how the story sketch we get to see of everything up to and including Dany's death could make for a great ending. But it remains just that - a sketch. A cruel tease that I rather wish I hadn't even watched. And it does not make up for the nonsensical writing decisions of the last two episodes; in fact they appear even worse now, considering how the same conclusion could have been reached with so few little changes towards plausibility. It's been popular saying D&D put narrative over plausibility, but it's now clear they don't even. They just don't care about character motivation, plausibility and continuity. The same narrative could have easily been told in a more plausible way, even given the self-imposed time constraints. It just makes me cynical.

Edited by Isewein

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

The snow at the beginning was ash. 

When Jon and the wildlings pass the Wall, there is a green plant shooting up out of the ground. So spring is coming. 

Erm, ok... I won't pretend I've already seen a holocaust with my own eyes, but... It was very white ashes, wasn't it ? u_u

Oh, and a supplement of thoughts:

  • love how they landed a random guy with a Doran x Trystan look, so we get that "it's him the new Prince of Dorne", lol
  • most crucially: I also like how Dany's fate match with some political aspects of our current world. As Charlie Chaplin said in "The Dictator": "Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people!". Autocrats appear because of people's desire of freedom, only for them to fall in different kind of chains. Well, that's deep complex stuff that would deserve a proper thread to be discussed, lol.

If it's interesting to anyone, Dany's last scene also reminded me that last scene between Anakin & Padme in the Revenge of the Sith. "let's make things the way we want to", etc. Damn, Tyrion is a bit of the Obi-Wan of this story! :D

Edited by Ser Glendon Fireball

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12 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

When Jon and the wildlings pass the Wall, there is a green plant shooting up out of the ground. So spring is coming. 

I missed that. So with the Others gone, the planet gets regular old winters like any dull old dirtball?

Damn the Children of the Forest messed up in more ways than one.

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10 minutes ago, Isewein said:

This is literally the only way this ending makes either narrative or practical sense. I'm still heartbroken over what could have been an amazing Shakespearean tragedy or a lesson in how War Never Changes. But your headcanon will be the only thing saving future rewatches for me.

Overall, there some beautiful shots in this episode, and I can see how the story sketch we get to see of everything up to and including Dany's death could make for a great ending. But it remains just that - a sketch. A cruel tease that I rather wish I hadn't even watched. And it does not make up for the nonsensical writing decisions of the last two episodes; in fact they appear even worse now, considering how the same conclusion could have been reached with so few little changes towards plausibility. It's been popular saying D&D put narrative over plausibility, but it's now clear they don't even. They just don't care about plausibility. The same narrative could have easily been told in a more plausible way, even given the self-imposed time constraints. It just makes me cynical.

Agree with this. A longer season, a more evenly pitched battle for KL (Cersei is like the queen of wildfire, even back in S2 it was originally her idea, so why not even the odds here with it) and the tragedy of Danys victory being hollow playing out over time, and her autocratic streak running headlong into westerosi opposition, that would have been a proper tragedy. 

As you say the scene with Dany and Jon should have been Shakespearean - and I did cry for Dany, but mostly because the writers had so horribly screwed her, and not because through a series of completely understandable but tragic decisions she had arrived at point where Jon had to kill her or say, lose Sansa, or see the kingdom wracked by another horrible war. But instead he was just euthanising someone who had, pretty much inexplicably, gone completely crazy with only a tenuous connection to reality. The character had already died 45 minutes and 24 seconds into The Bells, and it took about 3 seconds.  

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