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[Spoilers] Episode 806 Discussion

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Posted (edited)

The thing about “Game of Thrones” that’s always been amazing is the fact that there’s always been crazy twists and turns, right from Season 1 with Ned’s beheading. So Daenerys becoming something of the Mad Queen — it shouldn’t be such a negative thing for fans. It’s a shock for sure, but I think it’s just because it hasn’t gone their way.

All of these petitions and things like that — I think it’s disrespectful to the crew, and the writers, and the filmmakers who have worked tirelessly over 10 years, and for 11 months shooting the last season. Like 50-something night shoots. So many people worked so, so hard on it, and for people to just rubbish it because it’s not what they want to see is just disrespectful.

- Sophie Turner

You hear that guys it's because it didn't go your way that you are so pissed off not because the writers wiped their arses with almost every character arc, shame, shame shame

Edited by darksellsword

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, darksellsword said:

The thing about “Game of Thrones” that’s always been amazing is the fact that there’s always been crazy twists and turns, right from Season 1 with Ned’s beheading. So Daenerys becoming something of the Mad Queen — it shouldn’t be such a negative thing for fans. It’s a shock for sure, but I think it’s just because it hasn’t gone their way.

All of these petitions and things like that — I think it’s disrespectful to the crew, and the writers, and the filmmakers who have worked tirelessly over 10 years, and for 11 months shooting the last season. Like 50-something night shoots. So many people worked so, so hard on it, and for people to just rubbish it because it’s not what they want to see is just disrespectful.

- Sophie Turner

You hear that guys it's because it didn't go your way that you are so pissed off not because the writers wiped their arses with almost every character arc, shame, shame shame

Frankly I think a petition is just whiney. Which is fine to a degree, as fans we can whine if we want, that's what a board like this is built on. But a petition? Eh. If it bothers people that bad, just don't watch. If folks insist on watching then how bad can it be... come in here, piss and moan a little and be done with it. But a petition insisting on a re-do? Just sounds like a bunch of petulant children stamping their feet and crying that they didn't get their way. It's not surprising tho', there seems to be a lot of that in society recently.

Edited by Rory Snow

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Well, I gave it a 8. Overall I liked the endings, but there were too many loose threads.

Dany becoming the mad Queen was well prepared the last 7 seasons and it was mentioned very often in the forum, that the only thing she does is conquering with violence and fire. The difference to all the others doing nasty things during war is, that she thinks it is the right thing to do and totally ok. All the others just do it in war and were never in risk of wanting to conquer the world. Everybody else wanted peace and an ending of the killing, Dany just started. I liked her emotions this season and those were well delivered by Emilia.

Jon. Not sure, why they bothered with the R+L=J revelation, did that matter in any way? The true heir was a bit of an idiot, a nice one, but he always needed somebody to tell him what to do. And why is there still a night watch? Those can only be 10 man? And why do the wildlings go north, when winter is there and there is absolutely no food north? So Jon is now the Queenslayer and has broken an oath to protect the realm, just like Jaime. I agree, that he could not become king after this, but I would have liked to see a smile on his face at some point in the North. Grateful for the Ghost scene! Targaryan bloodline is then officially gone, which is a bit sad. Would Jon be able to call Drogon? As the last Targaryan?

Bran is a good choice as king, but it would have been great, if he had talked a bit more this season. His only lines were: "I'm not Brandon Stark" and "I'm the 3-eyed-raven." and suddenly he is fine to be king? He looked very good though as king.

Sansa would also have been a good choice and how this was written, an even more likely. Everybody knows her and half the kingdom already accepts her ruling (Edmure! Hilarious!). And it would have been nice, after Dany being gone, to have a woman on the throne. But maybe she wants it too much. And why would the North not bend the knee to the only living son of Ned Stark? And was there anybody we know in this room, when Sansa got crowned? Looked a bit like she is Queen of Nowhereland now.

Tyrion seems to be the effective ruler now, since Bran didn't so far contribute a lot, and this is fine. I always thought, that the only two people able to rule where Tyrion and Sansa, everybody else was just fighting and conquering. Would have liked to see those two back together though. Will Tyrion by the third head of the dragon in the books? And is he Lord Lannister now?

Brienne writing in that book broke my heart! Loved this! I hated Jamie going back to Cersei, it broke his arc for me. 

Sam is a Master now? Grandmaster? What about Gilly and the kids? I thought he was Lord Tarly now living happily with his family in his castle?

In total the setup is a nice idea, having the underdogs ruling now. Since most highborns are gone, this might even work out, there are not too many people left to object to this. Everybody just wants peace. Sooner or later somebody will claim that non-existing-throne, but right now, there are not enough living soldiers left I guess.

Having this spread out for at least 3-4 more episodes would have gone smoother and not felt so rushed. There was so much buildup, since until season 6 they were playing by the books with all the angles (well not all), but season 7 and 8 were just shortcuts and missing the elegant writing, which is a shame. I'm still hoping for TWOW!

I have to say, writing aside, I congratulate the show for the casting. Overall excellent and they were extremely lucky with how people grew and developed during all these years. Loved this!

Can't believe it's over now....

 

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19 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

Frankly I think a petition is just whiney. Which is fine to a degree, as fans we can whine if we want, that's what a board like this is built on. But a petition? Eh. If it bothers people that bad, just don't watch. If folks insist on watching then how bad can it be... come in here, piss and moan a little and be done with it. But a petition insisting on a re-do? Just sounds like a bunch of petulant children stamping their feet and crying that they didn't get their way. It's not surprising tho', there seems to be a lot of that in society recently.

Is anyone signing that petition because they think HBO will actually grant them their wish? Seems to me like most people understand it's more about sending a message, and getting at D&D's egos. They're probably hoping Disney is paying attention, too.

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Bran sits back and wonders, 

Where did it all go wrong? 

Why so many Script blunders,

In this fiery, Icy song? 

 

So he wargs back in time, 

Determined to find the reason. 

To the very scene of the crime, 

The writing of the eighth season. 

 

It’s an evening with David and Dan, lounging by the fire with wine. 

They are passionate with the plan, riffing on story design. 

 

“So, Tyrion’s head, eaten by undead Rickon...... it’s Red Wedding Mark 2!” 

“A vision for viewers to get sick on, Damn! It’s what Martin would do” 

 

“God of Crypts and Whine!! Jesus, I can see the meme” 

Their intelligent grins shine, 

As they’re warming to the theme. 

 

Bran is surprised and  impressed, “More of that story!” He blurts. 

But they drop to the floor distressed! Writhing with epileptic jerks! 

 

You can see their brains have shutdown, from the script our writers retreated. 

Dribbling with confused frown, The phrase continually repeated: 

 

“More of that story!”

“More of that story!”

“Mo da story!”

“Mo da story!”

“Muuu stuury!” 

“Muuu stuury”

“Must Hurry”

“Must Hurry” 

 

So if for a better series you yearn, The culprits ain’t David and Dan. 

From Hodor he did not learn, So blame that interfering twat Bran!

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On second thought I may have been wrong to criticize Jaime and Brienne.  Jaime for turning his cloak then turning it back, and Brienne fro "whitewashing" Jaime's write up in the white book.  

I think I was too hasty.  IIRC Jaime never claimed to have abandoned Cersei or to have sworn himself to Jon or Dany.  He said he would honor the Lannister pledge to make common cause against the Army of the Dead.  Pledge fulfilled.

While I feel that Brienne writing "returned to save the capital from destruction" is way to generous, it is not strictly a lie.  And what went on between Jaime and Brienne personally is nothing she is obligated to put in the white book.  Honor intact.  

I was mad about a lot of things and Jaime and Brienne caught some collateral trash talk.  

I hold out hope that whatever goes down with LSH does not dishinor either of them.  Book Brienne has had nothing but bad breaks and Book Jaime has more potential for redemption that Show Jaime ever did.   .    

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I just realized something. Old Town is still intact, and there is nothing preventing the Faith of the Seven from reviving its militant orders. And they still have the Maesters spying on everyone and poisoning away all potential problems and putting propaganda directly into the minds of young nobles.

Looks like the Faith wins, by outlasting everyone, and Old Town will come to dominate Westeros again, and this time there won't even be strong regional monarchs/paramounts to oppose them. The only large scale military that will exist will be the Faith's, and they will probably re-introduce Lord's Right to First Night to puff up the number of bastards and surplus males.

I guess the lesson here is, if you war against a religion and endeavor to de-fang it that isn't good enough, because that religion will just outlast you.

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The final episode. Now we know how this story ends. Can’t believe we are here, inside this moment of time. (I have read the books only in 2013, can’t even imagine the feelings of those who have read the first book in 1990s.) Some events in ep 6 were unexpected, at least by me. Yes, Jon’s scene with Dany was more or less predictable from ep 5, even without spoilers, but it was very powerful (not only visually), and the Iron Throne made and destroyed by dragonflame, so epic, so cinematographic. (It reminds the One Ring destroyed in the molten lava of the Mount Doom. The analogy of the IT and the Ring was very popular here.) And Jon was quite ready to be incinerated for his deed. But Drogon had let him to enter. Some could say that CGI-Drogon was acting even better than human actors in this scene. Both human actors were above their usual level, though.

The scene with Tyrion in the destroyed cellars of the Red Keep was brilliant. (Maybe too straightforward. I could do without Jaime’s and Cersei’s dead faces. But the viewer must know they are really dead. And we have to see Tyrion’s reaction, of course.) Daenerys speech about future liberation of the whole wide world (in the middle of a dead city, among the wild ululating of her Dothraki) was chilling. And, by the way, what about Dothraki, will they assimilate into Westerosi ways of life? The Unsullied are moving to Naath, very touching. All their war crimes are forgiven, obviously. They were obeying their orders.

Is there anybody who predicted Bran’s… coronation? election results? The scene with the council of (electors?) was interesting (maybe not very convincing, but it’s not a book). The company of representatives is so diversified: Robyn Arryn, Yohn Royce, Edmure Tully, Gendry, Yara, a Dornish prince… And they all vote “Aye”. For me it was an unexpected but satisfying twist. And the showrunners (and the actors, and the crew…) somehow had managed to keep it from public knowledge beforehand.

Jon’s moving to the True North and Arya’s expedition across the Sunset Sea were only logical. (We do remember Tormund’s words about the North in ep 4 and Arya’s words about “what’s west of Westeros” in Season 6.) And Sansa’s coronation. “The Queen in the North”, after two kings, Robb and Jon. “The King of the Six Kingdoms” sounds refreshingly good. These two Stark siblings, Sansa and Bran, are almost equal now (the North is not very densely populated but its territory is approx. the area of the other six kingdoms combined, we remember it).

The scene with Brienne (the Lady Commander of the Kingsguard now) filling Jaime’s entry in the White Book was extremely fitting. “A Song of Ice and Fire” presented by Sam (the Grand Maester now?) to Tyrion was maybe too much (similar book is given to another Sam in the final of LOTR movie trilogy). The new Small Council is, well, not too unexpected. Can’t see why Bronn is there, though. The Master of Coin? Really? Littlefinger turns in his untimely grave.  

 

And let me (one more time) admire the brilliant posters of this forum. Can’t remember now who posted it two or three years ago, as a joke: the show (this person suggested) could end with Tyrion’s recounting of his visit to this brothel with a honeycomb and a jackass. “And then all fades to black, the credits roll so we’ll never know how the story ends”. Well –

Very strong episode, one of the best. Visually and plot-wise and character-wise. Almost all the main knots are untied. And if these are GRRM’s plot milestones than I’d like to read his version (it’s not an unexpected feeling).

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I keep going back to this quote:

"Petyr ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish: Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is."

 

So it seems like Jon just refused. Dany fell. And the fact the Bran tells this to Littlefinger in S7. If Bran can "fly" its like he doesn't even have to climb the ladder. He just "flies" easily to the top.  This represents him easily being elected as King at the end without every having actually played the Game Of Thrones. 

Am I reaching here? Thoughts?

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I kind of liked the ending. Maybe not spectacular, but it wrapped things up neatly overall. Most of what I feel has been said by others in the thread already. A few random thoughts, though:

  • What fell over King's Landing was clearly snow, not ash. You saw some of it hit Daenerys's face and melt. Had it been ash, the whole epilogue would consist of characters croaking over with pneumonia and lung cancer. Which, admittedly, would have made for quite a spectacle.
  • I think the writers kinda forgot how many balls Sam had in the air. Gilly and the kids are not seen, there's the question of his inheritance to sort out, he has this Maester's degree he's been working on (wonder how he'll be welcomed in the Citadel again?), as the last surviving member of the Night's Watch he probably had some duties to clear up there too... and then he's made Grand Maester as well. Sam's various plot threads were just cut off and replaced with a new one, it seems.
  • The guys who escort Jon to the wall were presumably the first two recruits to the new Watch. I can imagine there being a few Northern soldiers who lost their families in the battle for Winterfell (or before it), and had nothing to go back to. The Night's Watch would at least offer a roof, beds and food.
  • That unknown lord at the seat was presumably from the Westerlands, which had no ruling family save for the prisoner Tyrion. As far as I know, Lannisport was not touched in the show, so he could theoretically be a Lannisport Lannister.
  • It's strange that the moniker "the Six Kingdoms" was adopted. Iron Islands, Westerlands (Unknown), Reach (Bronn), Riverlands (Tully), Stormlands (Gendry), Vale (Robin) and Dorne (Unnamed prince) make seven. There were always more than seven kingdoms in Westeros, apart from that specific time right before Aegon's Conquest. With the North and Crownlands counted too, there actually were nine. 
  • The Night's Watch didn't serve as an effective guard force at the start of the series, it owed all its protective capability to the Wall. It arguably didn't serve the purpose of guarding the Seven Kingdoms particularly well in the first place, not for a few centuries, at least, and probably would carry on just the same without having to man the Wall other than for tradition's sake. Jon was effectively elected to lead a prison colony, and that's what he was sent back to do now.
  • That being said, with the White Walkers gone and the Wildlings being friendly, he has a lot more room to define the mission of the Watch, and presumably more personal freedom than, say, Mormont had. He could pick the most capable-looking fellow among his new recruits, and tell him "You have the Wall while I go with the Voluntary Extended Ranger Force to establish some self-sustaining forward bases in the newly freed territories. It might take a few decades, but you guys can probably manage fine in my absence." There is some precedence for a Night's Watch presence north of the Wall, with the Fist of the First Men being an abandoned fort up there. Jon is merely surveying the northern territories along with some natives to guide him, a task that might go on for the rest of his life, and which he might fail to write a report about afterwards.

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9 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Frankly I think a petition is just whiney. Which is fine to a degree, as fans we can whine if we want, that's what a board like this is built on. But a petition? Eh. If it bothers people that bad, just don't watch. If folks insist on watching then how bad can it be... come in here, piss and moan a little and be done with it. But a petition insisting on a re-do? Just sounds like a bunch of petulant children stamping their feet and crying that they didn't get their way. It's not surprising tho', there seems to be a lot of that in society recently.

If it all comes across as whiney, piss and moan why do you read these forums? if you don't like it don't read it, see what I did there? I think the show has earned some legitimate criticism. If fans want to air their complaint through a petition then they have that right, they were the ones that financed the show from the beginning until its end.

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Regarding Dothraki:  So we all agree that Jon probably confessed to Greyworm about knifing Dany in the heart since Drogon flew away with the evidence.  But imagine instead if a Dothraki had been the first to hear the story.  Jon killed their Khaleesi, which makes him Khal by their customs.  Her dragon belches fire, Jon emerges unharmed.  The dragon flees.  This adds to "Khal Jon's" prestige in the eyes of the Dothraki.  They defend their new Khal from the Unsullied.   A great fight breaks out.  Of course Jon would have none of this.

The point is  - No, they don't rape and pillage Westeros for revenge's sake.  It's not their way. If anything they fight among themselves briefly and choose a new Khal.  Who then takes them home.  They take home no spoils of war because Dany destroyed anything of value in KL.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, SteveS_FL said:

Regarding Dothraki:  So we all agree that Jon probably confessed to Greyworm about knifing Dany in the heart since Drogon flew away with the evidence.  But imagine instead if a Dothraki had been the first to hear the story.  Jon killed their Khaleesi, which makes him Khal by their customs.  Her dragon belches fire, Jon emerges unharmed.  The dragon flees.  This adds to "Khal Jon's" prestige in the eyes of the Dothraki.  They defend their new Khal from the Unsullied.   A great fight breaks out.  Of course Jon would have none of this.

The point is  - No, they don't rape and pillage Westeros for revenge's sake.  It's not their way. If anything they fight among themselves briefly and choose a new Khal.  Who then takes them home.  They take home no spoils of war because Dany destroyed anything of value in KL.

It was a plot device to get them to their ultimate goal Bran as king and Jon in exile in the North. There were 101 ways Jon could've avoided capture, the simplest would've been to return to his men and take them back to the North and wait for the unsullied and Dothraki to come to the conclusion that Daenerys flew away and abandoned them. If they didn't return to Essos of their own volition Jon could have raised some kind of resistance with the remaining Westerosi forces.

Edited by darksellsword

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5 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

It was a plot device to get them to their ultimate goal Bran as king and Jon in exile in the North.

Well one could dismiss everything as a plot device.  I'm considering hypothetical actions based on known character and race customs.  Jon Snow would never murder his queen and then sneak away.  His own sense of honor means he turns himself in and faces the consequences.  Hell, he can't even lie to Cercei! 

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12 minutes ago, SteveS_FL said:

Well one could dismiss everything as a plot device.  I'm considering hypothetical actions based on known character and race customs.  Jon Snow would never murder his queen and then sneak away.  His own sense of honor means he turns himself in and faces the consequences.  Hell, he can't even lie to Cercei! 

He didn't have to sneak away just walk back to his own men. He didn't owe any explanation to Grey worm or any of Danys forces that he watched commit atrocities. They would never have known about Dany's death in the immediate aftermath if he hadn't gone out of his way to confess to it. If you saw any actions that were based on known character and race customs this season let me know bc it was all very inconsistent.

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Another misconception by Bran the bot, the 3er, the mantree, the deceiver. He won the game of thrones big time and all he had to do was move some puppets with few words, let countless people die and sit back and wait. Warg the dragon if needed. 

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Tyrion: We serve at your pleasure King Bran the broken, ruler of the six kingdoms and protector of the realm

long may he reign. That will improve

90 percent of the Game of thrones audience: no it won't Tyrion, no it won't

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