[Poll] How would you rate episode 806?

[FelixFelicis]

This cannot be considered canon...

[Astrotherapist]

I gave it a 5.

I'll give every episode a base score of five for being a top-notch production as far as cinematography, special FX, musical score, and acting go. Every episode is also an opportunity to immerse into GRRM's fantastic world and be with characters I've grown to love, and that's worth something too.  Most of the actors have been brilliant, doing much of the heavy lifting when the script is lacking.  Though D&D have a gift for visuals and spectacle and some shots looked like beautiful paintings, too much of the story fails to make sense, and that's where I subtract points. 

I was rolling okay with this episode and felt a good deal of tension and excitement until the time jump into the Dragonpit scene where the writers' stupidity really began in earnest.  I sat through the second half like a zombie, totally deflated and scratching my head at numerous things like:

-why Dany didn't execute Tyrion immediately.  Drogon was there, public assembly, why not? 

-why there were seemingly a veritable multitude of Unsullied left when there are no replacements and they surely suffered varying degrees of attrition from every battle in which they've fought: Yunkai, Mereen, Casterly Rock, Winterfell, and King's Landing.  

-why Jon wasn't executed immediately by the vengeful and hardcore loyalist, Greyworm.  Same with Tyrion, right after Jon.

-why Tyrion wasn't allowed to speak, but then got to speak at length and even decided (not proposed) the new election system.

-why there were no objections to, nor discussion of, this new, unorthodox election system, especially when lordships throughout the kingdoms have always inherited though familial succession, and evidently will continue to do so.

-why Edmure Tully had to be humiliated - I saw no humor in this.  It was embarrassing and awkward, especially his explicable submission to the command of his young, uppity niece.  

-why non-Lords and minor lords/bannermen like Royce got to vote.  

-why a spaceman was "elected" king and why Bran/3ER accepted it when he had previously denied his identity as Bran and rejected lordship of the North having transcended all such mundane, worldly concerns.  Shouldn't he have burrowed beneath the weirwood in the Godswood enclosure to wrap himself in its roots for the next few thousand years like his predecessors?  Is an emotionally-devoid "computer" which can't empathize with people, who mostly lives in the past now (as he explicitly stated) and not the present, really the best choice?  

-why the North needed to be independent when a Stark is now on the throne,

-why Dorne and the Iron Islands especially, just fell in line and didn't secede after Sansa essentially crowned herself Queen of an independent North (through nepotism).  At the very least we should have heard some objections from those quarters, whatever the final result.  

At this point, I found myself wishing that Drogon would suddenly fly in to burn and eat some of these people, starting with Sansa. That wouldn't have been any less ludicrous than what was transpiring at this council and would have seemed like an improvement. 

-why Greyworm would have accepted any of this nonsense, including the bogus "sentences" for Tyrion and Jon.

-why the Dothraki are completely unaccounted for.  And after the deaths of Jorah, Missandei and Dany, who's left to even speak their language and communicate with them? Greyworm? He never spoke it, and had barely learned the common tongue.  And we never once heard any of these Dothraki warriors speak the common tongue.  Maybe they should have attacked the council -- why not!  

-why a thoroughly selfish THUG was not only given Highgarden castle, but lordship over the most prosperous of the Kingdoms, and control over finances to boot --which, of course, are prioritized to build brothels.  What a wise choice by Tyrion and King Bran! For haha moments only, apparently.

-how Sam was made Grand Maester without completing the training for it, and if the Night's Watch is restored, how he's excused from his vows. 

-why Brienne is in the Kingsguard and not Sansa's Queensguard.  Why would her previous oath be nullified?  

-why Bran was looking for Drogon.  And why Bran never got to warg a dragon  at all in this series.  

-why there's a Night's Watch when the threat of the White Walkers is over, the Wildlings are on friendly terms with everybody now and radically diminished to only a couple thousand people even if they weren't-- oh and the eastern edge of the Wall is gone.  They just need a penal colony for outcasts and rejects?  Yet it's still at Castle Black, within the bounds of the independent Kingdom of the North, not "The "Six Kingdoms"?

-why Jon had to follow through with his sentence when it was given to placate Greyworm who quickly sailed away.  I would have liked to see a duel between those two at some point in this episode.  

-what Jon was doing at the end. Was he "ranging" simultaneously with the Wildlings exit, or escorting the Wildlings, or actually joining them? And if the latter then why dress like a crow? 

I would have preferred a self-imposed exile to the far North where Jon wanted to go anyway instead of this outcome leveled as "punishment" and after all he's done to save their world!  Now the character is returned all the way back to the Night's Watch where he started and even looking like he did in seasons 1-5.  It would be much better that he just joins (and dresses like)  Tormund and the Wildlings with the possibility of finding happiness in the arms of another 'Ygritte-like' character someday left open... instead of the "I will take no wife, guard against nothing, and live in a depressing, gloomy castle like a monk" fate consigned by Tyrion.  He should surely just chuck that crap to the wind.  

I predicted the endings for Arya and Jon some time ago (even the final scene visually mirroring the very first in the series) but that gave me no satisfaction. This episode was supposed to wrap up loose ends, not leave loads of questions unanswered or create so many new ones.  It's "bittersweet" for the wrong reasons, the painful part of that coming from writing.  

I still enjoyed some things though: Tyrion finding his siblings, the awesome shot of the dragon wings behind Daenerys, the callback to the House of the Undying (except this time Dany actually touched the throne), her citing Viserys --who basically raised her and programmed her obsessive ambition for the Iron Throne in the first place, Drogon's "acting" and his melting of the Iron Throne, Brienne recording Jamie's chronicle, Davos as Master of Ships, and Arya's sweet wolfship.

Despite its many narrative flaws this season (and in seasons 5-7), the show still basically succeeded as entertainment -I felt entertained- and anxiously came back for more every time it aired.  I'll miss it.  

Edited May 22, 2019 by Astrotherapist

[valgrel]

3 minutes ago, Astrotherapist said:

 

-why the North needed to be independent when a Stark is now on the throne,

 

Because when Bran dies, next king woudn't probably be a Stark, but North would remain independant no matter what.

[Astrotherapist]

26 minutes ago, valgrel said:

Because when Bran dies, next king woudn't probably be a Stark, but North would remain independant no matter what.

When will Bran die? What's the longevity of a 3ER?  The last one was thousands of years old (in the show), a fact which must be wound up with the function of the 3ER itself.   

Then there's Sansa's questionable rationale for secession: "But tens of thousands of Northmen fell in the Great War defending all of Westeros. And those who survived have seen too much and fought too hard ever to kneel again."  But they most certainly would kneel to a Northerner now, to Brandon Stark, and no matter whether the relatively young Bran lives a full human life or for thousands of years, those Northmen that fought and sacrificed will have passed away and folks up there would just roll with the new norm as they did under Targaryen rule. 

If these are truly GRRM's final outcomes, they will have to (and likely will) be set up to make more sense than this.  

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Astrotherapist

[valgrel]

I guess the previous 3ER lived long because he was half-tree/half-man. Bran isn't.

Sansa's justification for independance was weak indeed, she could just have said : Torrhen bent the knee 300 years ago because of dragons, last one is gone, so we go back to previous state.

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 5/21/2019 at 12:59 PM, Hodor's Dragon said:

And speaking of independence for the North? WHAT? Even though the other 6 kingdoms are going to be ruled by a Stark? And NOBODY has a problem with this? ?????

 

And Bronn on the council? Why the heck not just put a known criminal in charge of the realm's money? But then again, we do get to pretty much end the whole story with more brothel jokes. <sheesh>

 

 

I take it as everybody just wants peace.  The election was forced on them with no notice, so they chose.  The next election would be something completely different.  One hopes that Bran (or Tyrion) sets things up to keep things under control.  

Bronn on council was great!  He's not a criminal.  He was a sellsword who became a knight.  And had been Commander of KL's City Watch.   He has his own code, which he follows rather consistently.  By being Lord of Highgarden, Bronn is now in charge of and runs one of the wealthiest positions in the 6 Kingdoms.   Remember - the Tyrells were 2nd only to the Lannisters in wealth.  And the Lannister's gold mines have run dry.  What is interesting is that the Small Council has 2 people on it who started life as commoners - Bronn and Davos.

  Why do you think Bronn was a criminal?

 

Disclaimer - I like Bronn, and am happy that he finally got his castle.

[Tywin Tytosson]

5 hours ago, valgrel said:

I guess the previous 3ER lived long because he was half-tree/half-man. Bran isn't.

This.  I think the same applies to the greenseers of the CotF.

 

5 hours ago, valgrel said:

Sansa's justification for independance was weak indeed, she could just have said : Torrhen bent the knee 300 years ago because of dragons, last one is gone, so we go back to previous state.

Like Greatjon Umber declared, when he nominated Robb as King. 

What Sansa did was more politic.  By emphasizing what the North did for the rest of Westeros, she put her request/claim on the moral high ground.   Thus reducing opposition from the other Lords present.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Tywin Tytosson

[Tywin Tytosson]

5 hours ago, valgrel said:

5 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

When will Bran die? What's the longevity of a 3ER?  The last one was thousands of years old (in the show), a fact which must be wound up with the function of the 3ER itself.   

Then there's Sansa's questionable rationale for secession: "But tens of thousands of Northmen fell in the Great War defending all of Westeros. And those who survived have seen too much and fought too hard ever to kneel again."  But they most certainly would kneel to a Northerner now, to Brandon Stark, and no matter whether the relatively young Bran lives a full human life or for thousands of years, those Northmen that fought and sacrificed will have passed away and folks up there would just roll with the new norm as they did under Targaryen rule. 

If these are truly GRRM's final outcomes, they will have to (and likely will) be set up to make more sense than this.  

 

 

Didn't Fire and Blood disabuse us of he notion that the North just 'rolled with the new norm' after Torrhen bent the knee?  Thought there was talk of rebellion in the North.

 

I agree re. GRRM's final outcomes being setup to make more sense than the show.

[Astrotherapist]

1 hour ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Didn't Fire and Blood disabuse us of he notion that the North just 'rolled with the new norm' after Torrhen bent the knee?  Thought there was talk of rebellion in the North.

 

I agree re. GRRM's final outcomes being setup to make more sense than the show.

7 hours ago, valgrel said:

I guess the previous 3ER lived long because he was half-tree/half-man. Bran isn't.

Sansa's justification for independance was weak indeed, she could just have said : Torrhen bent the knee 300 years ago because of dragons, last one is gone, so we go back to previous state.

No, he was human and started merging into the roots over time because the weirwood provides the greatest attunement for greenseer abilities.   And the 3EC in the books is likely Brynden Rivers.   There's no telling how long Bran will live, but he will likely outlive malcontent Northmen, and I contend that the next generation would have been fine with being part of the Seven Kingdoms.  The Warden of the North/Lord Paramount of the North rules over that region just like a king anyway.  

The North could have pushed for independence when the dragons diminished and died out or when Robert Baratheon took the throne, but they didn't, they just continued as before.  Ned could have made that condition with Robert just as Cat negotiated same with Renly later if this was so important. 

It really feels like D&D did this to make Sansa's childhood wish come true.  If this is GRRM outcome, it will probably feel more deserved because Sansa won't be written as such an arrogant, self-entitled, backstabbing, undermining bitch.  

Edited May 23, 2019 by Astrotherapist

[Mikkel]

1 hour ago, Astrotherapist said:

The North could have pushed for independence when the dragons diminished and died out or when Robert Baratheon took the throne, but they didn't, they just continued as before.  Ned could have made that condition with Robert

Ned had just helped put Robert on the throne, subsequent falling-out/reconciliation notwithstanding. He couldn't very well turn around and declare independence immediately afterward - nor would he, they were friends after all. Nor does anything suggest that sentiment for a "free North" was particularly rife at the time, that only came later, when "the crown" started making power plays (imprisoning Ned, etc).

[Rhollo]

I'm not giving a rating, since I only watched bits an pieces of the previous episodes, so I can't speak to how well it was really set up.

But the finale felt quite lazy to me, because it was mostly just Peter Dinklage monologuing the plot into the camera. This is a series where the conflicting motivations of dozens of characters was always the driving factor and in the end, one dude comes up with the solution to everything and everyone else is just going along with him.

No one at the election council felt like a character except for Edmure, who did what I would have expected from eveyone: Making a case why they should rule or what they want. But no, he gets shut down after 10 seconds as a quick joke. Stupid Edmure, this is the Tyrion show, sit down and listen.

[TappMan]

4/10 for Peter Dinklages performance alone.

Last 20 minutes felt like I was watching a comic relief skit and not a serious ending, was laughing through it and then felt like crying after I realized that was actually all we were going to get.

 

 

[Astrotherapist]

9 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Ned had just helped put Robert on the throne, subsequent falling-out/reconciliation notwithstanding. He couldn't very well turn around and declare independence immediately afterward - nor would he, they were friends after all. Nor does anything suggest that sentiment for a "free North" was particularly rife at the time, that only came later, when "the crown" started making power plays (imprisoning Ned, etc).

Exactly what I was getting at.  And what I meant is that IF this was so important (which it wasn't) and the North had always been agitating for independence then Ned would have negotiated it as soon as Robert's rebellion began, not after he was king.  

[robasp2]

Effective rating of 3.25 based on the current poll.

[ToddDavid]

I gave it a 7.   GRRM told us that he wanted to end this in a way that left no interpretation about what happens afterward, and that obviously takes a little bit of screen time.  So I regarded 8.5 and the beginning of 8.6 as the grand climactic ending that we’re all accustomed to and then treated the final 40 minutes of 8.6 as essentially bonus material that allowed us to bid a fond farwell to a show that’s been like a home away from home for many of us.  

So many characters, subplots, and such enormity of scale that it would’ve been impossible to wrap everything up pristinely and satisfy even half of the viewers’ desires.

 

Not to mention, we weren’t going to receive another grand battle, so Dany’s demise had to end quickly & quietly.   Neither the time nor budget existed to extend the season. E3 & E5 probably cost as much to produce as all of S3 combined.  The Long Night alone had already occupied 11 weeks of shooting, and it mentally & physically wore the cast & 750 crew members out.  

“Nothing can prepare you for how physically draining it is,” actress Maisie Williams, who portrays Arya Stark on the show, told EW. “It’s night after night, and again and again, and it just doesn’t stop. You can’t get sick, and you have to look out for yourself because there’s so much to do that nobody else can do… there are moments you’re just broken as a human and just want to cry.”

 

[Wsc48]

24 minutes ago, ToddDavid said:

Neither the time nor budget existed to extend the season.

HBO offered more episodes and budget. D&D turned them down. The sloppy rushed season is all on them. 

[Caligula_K3]

26 minutes ago, Wsc48 said:

HBO offered more episodes and budget. D&D turned them down. The sloppy rushed season is all on them. 

This is repeated a lot, but it's not exactly true. HBO was fine with more episodes, and might have increased the budget slightly - they'd have to, because more episodes means the cast gets paid more - but the choice D&D made was to use c. 90 million dollars over six episodes rather than 10; this is a huge budget for a TV show. It took them an extra year to do these six episodes, they had to film much of it in winter, and as @ToddDavid points out, filming was an incredible slog and episodes 3 and 5 were expensive. Now, maybe this was the wrong choice; maybe the Long Night battle could have been condensed to lower its budget and filming time and give us an extra episode or two to let developments breath more. But television budgets aren't unlimited, even for Game of Thrones. Filming time isn't unlimited, and many of the cast and crew want to move on, etc...  They made this decision for understandable reasons.

[Kikajon]

On 5/19/2019 at 11:51 PM, Ran said:

What'd you think?

Negative votes should've been allowed at least for the last episode...

[Techmaester]

It's clear the writers wanted to give a middle finger to a lot of us and be done with the show. Two years and this is the best they could do? Independent of the garbage writing and inconsistent character actions having only 6 episodes was absurd. 

[lakin1013]

On 5/22/2019 at 4:43 PM, Astrotherapist said:

why Jon had to follow through with his sentence when it was given to placate Greyworm who quickly sailed away.  I would have liked to see a duel between those two at some point in this episode.  

 

Tyrion (I think it was Tyrion) while sentencing Jon to his punishment at Castle Black, says that there always has to be a place for bastards and broken men.  Jon is neither a bastard nor broken. Why does Jon have to return to Castle Black and be considered a bastard and/or broken. *

 *I preferred Jon, who never wanted to be king, to return to the North where it seemed he was happiest.  But I wanted it to be his choice, not a punishment by his peers, whose lives he saved.