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Best and worst TV series finales, and where does GoT rank? *Spoilers*

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6 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

How so? I listed my reasons for why the finale worked for me.

I see you've edited your previous post. That is at the heart of all this. You have gone through all this effort to explain why GoT worked for you, despite counter-arguments that stuff we got was rushed, contrived, all around flawed. But you are not willing to expend the same effort on other shows, despite saying you hold all shows to the same standard. You have a blind spot for GoT.

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Posted (edited)

Drogon not killing Jon immediately?

should've fired him up right then and prove thereby his manifest targiness with immunity to incendiaries. then big worm and the nomadic pastoralists of the steppe are like dammmmn.  

Edited by sologdin

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17 minutes ago, Risto said:

I know people will hide behind the usual "taste" argument, but at some point a line has to be drawn. It is not "taste" to say that GoT finale was better than "The Americans" finale. It is plain nonsense. 

It’s not nonsense, it’s the truth. I much prefer the GOT finale to The Americans. In fact, the last montage of all the Starks was more emotional than the entire series of The Americans.

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9 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I see you've edited your previous post. That is at the heart of all this. You have gone through all this effort to explain why GoT worked for you, despite counter-arguments that stuff we got was rushed, contrived, all around flawed. But you are not willing to expend the same effort on other shows, despite saying you hold all shows to the same standard. You have a blind spot for GoT.

But I don’t. The Americans is my fourth favorite show despite all its flaws. Breaking Bad is my third favorite show despite all its flaws. Why? Because the positives of those shows also far outweigh the negatives. I hold all my shows to the same standard. I look for the positives, but if the negatives become too much that the positives can’t overcome it, I stop watching.

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2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

It’s not nonsense, it’s the truth. I much prefer the GOT finale to The Americans. In fact, the last montage of all the Starks was more emotional than the entire series of The Americans.

Except that it wasn’t all the Starks. They couldn’t even bother to show the super important one they made king. :P

but he was a non-character for much of the series so at least it was consistent. 

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4 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Except that it wasn’t all the Starks. They couldn’t even bother to show the super important one they made king. :P

but he was a non-character for much of the series so at least it was consistent. 

We already saw where Bran ended up at the small council meeting.

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hide behind the usual "taste" argument,

curious. what is the refutation of the principle de gustibus est non disputandum?  logical positivist verifiability doctrine would contend that aesthetic judgments are cognitively insignificant, mere psuedostatements without truth value; and i suppose that a popperian falsifiability doctrine would regard them as fairly untestable and accordingly not subject to falsification--and therefore not worth the time it takes to utter them.  as a practical matter, what source of evidence to disprove a solitary gustatory statement, such as 'i like the game of thrones finale,' when the only evidence for the statement is in the speaker's head and only the speaker has access thereto?

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1 minute ago, Dragon in the North said:

We already saw where Bran ended up at the small council meeting.

So? We already knew what Arya’s plans were and they still showed her. Did we learn anything from that shot? 

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2 minutes ago, sologdin said:

hide behind the usual "taste" argument,

curious. what is the refutation of the principle de gustibus est non disputandum?  logical positivist verifiability doctrine would contend that aesthetic judgments are cognitively insignificant, mere psuedostatements without truth value; and i suppose that a popperian falsifiability doctrine would regard them as fairly untestable and accordingly not subject to falsification--and therefore not worth the time it takes to utter them.  as a practical matter, what source of evidence to disprove a solitary gustatory statement, such as 'i like the game of thrones finale,' when the only evidence for the statement is in the speaker's head and only the speaker has access thereto?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Nictarion said:

So? We already knew what Arya’s plans were and they still showed her. Did we learn anything from that shot? 

Showing is better than telling. They showed us where all the characters ended up. Only, 3 of them were with a montage.

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1 minute ago, Dragon in the North said:

Showing is better than telling. They showed us where all the characters ended up. Only, 3 of them were with a montage.

Honestly the small council scene would have worked better as part of the montage. That scene was awful. 

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24 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Honestly the small council scene would have worked better as part of the montage. That scene was awful. 



That was the only good scene in the finale.

 

27 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Showing is better than telling.


This is at leasy 70% of the reason why the finale was so terrible. The entire election council meeting was spent telling us stuff they should have spent at least an hour showing.

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10 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

This is at leasy 70% of the reason why the finale was so terrible. The entire election council meeting was spent telling us stuff they should have spent at least an hour showing.

I disagree. We were already shown about why Bran was the right choice for king. Tyrion only reiterated what we already knew.

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6 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

We were already shown about why Bran was the right choice for king.


Seriously? Where?

But it wasn't just that. If Bran was going to be king and Sansa was going to secede that needed to be set up, discussed, so much drama could have been mined out of everything going on in that scene (Yara's resentment, Grey Worm's plans, Edmure Tully being there at all) that just... wasn't.

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Posted (edited)

I could see how Bran's "story" could be molded into making the people of Westeros buy into it, but the show had no time to give us that, instead it asked us to buy into it just like Tyrion, with a quick speech and barely a plan, expected the lords and people of Westeros to buy into it. Why would the common people accept someone like Bran to rule over them, who only exudes creepiness but not the strength they envision kings to have? Why would the Faith of the Seven accept a warg from the North to rule over them? Why would proud lords with similar attitudes to Jaime "better give me a clean death" Lannister or Randyl Tarly accept a crippled boy to rule over them? Because he can reveal all their secrets? Ha, the assassins are sharpening their knives. 

Edited by Corvinus

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

I hope you know that Grey's Anatomy ISN"T FINISHED.

As for the rest... Amen.

 I can't even compare the masterpiece of "The Americans"

Grey's was included for shits and giggles, yes.  But it was also deadly serious, with onion layers of deeper meaning for you to peel and sniff! - - > This GoT series is just as unfinished as Greys Anatomy is, really.  It's a finale for a series that isn't over.  Grey's is the beast that won't die, like Drogon;  This finale is as detestable as the average episode of Grey's, a show that in reality ended two decades ago when Heigl Buddy wisely left it, and since it has lived on in zombie form as one of the night king's host of dead shows that stalk the network time slots.   

The hate I feel for Stannis' end in GoT is akin to the hate I felt for Sandra Oh's character on Grey's..... but then as soon as you remove Sandra from that pit of hell network show and drop her into Killing Eve I suddenly love her.  Which means.... she wasn't personally what was so detestable before, rather it was the stink of Grey's that had been rubbing off onto her all that time! 

I want that stink rubbed off of Stannis, off of Jon, off of Daenerys, off of Dorne, off of Littlefinger.

1 hour ago, Dragon in the North said:

The reason Bran should be king is because he is the best story. Also, as the 3 Eyed Raven, he is the wisest man alive.

Aren't the seven kingdoms in this mess to begin with because they don't just usher the wisest onto the throne??   The time when Bran could have best earned his way onto the throne would have been during an expanded White Walker invasion that lasted a whole season, when he could then have arisen as the one soul capable of coordinating humanity's survival efforts in real time.  Then the crown by universal proclamation.

10 minutes ago, sologdin said:

curious. what is the refutation of the principle de gustibus est non disputandum?  logical positivist verifiability doctrine would contend that aesthetic judgments are cognitively insignificant, mere psuedostatements without truth value; and i suppose that a popperian falsifiability doctrine would regard them as fairly untestable and accordingly not subject to falsification--and therefore not worth the time it takes to utter them.  as a practical matter, what source of evidence to disprove a solitary gustatory statement, such as 'i like the game of thrones finale,' when the only evidence for the statement is in the speaker's head and only the speaker has access thereto?

What I love most about this scrabble-words racket you've got going here is you get away with posts like this while I get more people responding to me with, "I don't understand."    :rolleyes:   Compared to this thing ^ my stuff reads like I'm a "poster of the people."   

- - -

Oh, and re: The Americans finale

It was the only time I tuned in to that show, so I know it's not really fair to chime in with this, because I wasn't feeling the gravity of it like regular viewers who were there for all the buildup,..... but my God I was having to fight off some serious zzzzz's during that finale!  At least GoT didn't suffer from that.   GoT: Wide Awake Disappointment.

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3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:


Seriously? Where?

But it wasn't just that. If Bran was going to be king and Sansa was going to secede that needed to be set up, discussed, so much drama could have been mined out of everything going on in that scene (Yara's resentment, Grey Worm's plans, Edmure Tully being there at all) that just... wasn't.

Because he never desired to rule. As Varys said, the right person for the throne would be someone who never wanted it in the first place. Then there’s Tywin who said, “Wisdom makes the best king.” Who’s wiser than the 3 Eyed Raven. He was wise enough to forgive Jaime, he was wise enough to forgive Theon. He’ll be the first king in a long while who is capable of showing mercy. There was more set up to Bran becoming king than Robb.

 The North seceding has been set up all season long. Greyworm’s plans were set up when he and Missandei discussed returning to Naath. Yara’s resentment? That wouldn’t have contributed anything. What I really wanted was her reaction to Theon’s death. That would have been better.

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2 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

It’s not nonsense, it’s the truth. I much prefer the GOT finale to The Americans. In fact, the last montage of all the Starks was more emotional than the entire series of The Americans.

Oh, boy... As good as the cast of GoT was, what the cast of The Americans delivered, as nuanced and as difficult to notice for some remains some of the best acting on TV in this decade.

2 hours ago, sologdin said:

hide behind the usual "taste" argument,

curious. what is the refutation of the principle de gustibus est non disputandum?  logical positivist verifiability doctrine would contend that aesthetic judgments are cognitively insignificant, mere psuedostatements without truth value; and i suppose that a popperian falsifiability doctrine would regard them as fairly untestable and accordingly not subject to falsification--and therefore not worth the time it takes to utter them.  as a practical matter, what source of evidence to disprove a solitary gustatory statement, such as 'i like the game of thrones finale,' when the only evidence for the statement is in the speaker's head and only the speaker has access thereto?

I give up... I tried to understand it and my English is simply not good enough. But I do believe that not everything is "good". We can say "Game of Thrones finale is excellent" but is it true because someone says it is? Or are there some universal aesthetic principles on which we can base at least some sort of objective criticism? I believe that sometimes we can say something is objectively bad because of the latter.

2 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Showing is better than telling. They showed us where all the characters ended up. Only, 3 of them were with a montage.

Like they showed us how Sansa is smart? Or how Dany has been descending into madness? Or how intelligent Tyrion is?

They have been telling us a lot in Season 8. Showing, not so much.

2 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Because he never desired to rule. As Varys said, the right person for the throne would be someone who never wanted it in the first place. Then there’s Tywin who said, “Wisdom makes the best king.” Who’s wiser than the 3 Eyed Raven. He was wise enough to forgive Jaime, he was wise enough to forgive Theon. He’ll be the first king in a long while who is capable of showing mercy. There was more set up to Bran becoming king than Robb.

Then there is that small question of what happens when Bran dies. Because he is just a human and he will eventually die, and all the stories and all the wisdom of the world will die. Night King won, sooner or later, Bran will die. 

And that is why it didn't make any sense.

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6 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Of course. Dragons are intelligent creatures. Drogon knew that it was Dany’s obsession that really killed her, so he destroyed the symbol of her obsession. Grey Worm is smart as well. He knew many of the high lords would not be ok with Jon’s execution, so he decided to wait to see if they could come up with a fitting punishment. He agreed with exile. The Dothraki follow strength, and strength alone. How many stayed behind and mourned for Khal Drogo or any of the other khals Danerys killed. Dorne has never given any indication that they want independence. Not one. The Iron Islands aren’t sustainable on their own without attacking the mainland for their resources. Yara figured this out, which is why she conquered the Iron Islands in Dany’s name. The reason Bran should be king is because he is the best story. Also, as the 3 Eyed Raven, he is the wisest man alive. As Tywin said, wisdom makes the best king. GOT always managed to balance comedy and drama perfectly, and the finale was no exception. The only comedic scene was the small council. Brienne closing the book is such a small detail. If such a minor thing takes you out of an episode, it’s a wonder you ever turn on your television. The water bottle speaks volumes about the viewers, not the show. The fact that there are people that go over the show with a magnifying glass, looking for mistakes, is clearly pathetic. Can you honestly say with 100% honesty that you noticed the water bottle on your first viewing before seeing it on the internet? No show can hold up under such scrutiny, not even Breaking Bad or The Americans. I rewatched Breaking Bad and was just as critical of it as some people are of GOT, and you’d be surprised how easy it was to tear it apart.

A shame I can't give this multiple "likes"!!!

I also want to point out that Grey Worm and his forces couldn't execute Jon without starting another war with the Northmen waiting just outside the city.

And a few people said that Bran has no experience ruling. On the contrary, he has the experience of EVERY king and lord that ever ruled in Westeros.

And you are absolutely correct about being able to pick apart most any show. Continuity errors and plot holes are so common in tv/movies, I have just come to expect them. Books, on the other hand, I hold to a higher standard.

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3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

If Bran was going to be king and Sansa was going to secede that needed to be set up,

How many times did she say in seasons 7 & 8 that the north would never bend the knee again? How much set up do you need? You think just because her brother was made king that was going to change? Remember, he no longer considered himself a Stark.

4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 so much drama could have been mined out of everything going on in that scene (Yara's resentment, Grey Worm's plans, Edmure Tully being there at all) that just... wasn't.

It was the finale, the conclusion. You don't introduce new drama during a conclusion. And honestly, the things you mentioned really would not have been very interesting, and as for Grey Worm, he and Missandei had already discussed going to Naath and the Unsullied protecting the people there.

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