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anjulibai

The purpose of R+L=J?

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I have no issue with this expectation being subverted and what it was subverted into. It's how they did it that pisses me off to no ends.

An AA-figure still saved the world from Ice and Fire, very loosely speaking. Same with how Cersei died while in the hands of her little brother. The prophecies all more or less came true, but not and never literally. I'm okay with this.

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11 hours ago, Ilissa said:

The prince that was promised stopped both threats - ice and fire.

But why did he *have to know*? What was the purpose of it being revealed in-Universe? Does Jon even know about the prophesy in-universe?

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One thing occured to me: RLJ definitely should have led to a political shitstorm, and I expect it will in the books. If we take a look at LOTR, Aragorn had it really easy due to the deaths of Boromir and Denethor. Had those two survived, things could have got very GRRMesque.

For the life of me, I'll never understand why D&D refused to make more episodes when they were offered the chance, with Varys really rocking the boat to push Jon's claim.

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5 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

But why did he *have to know*? What was the purpose of it being revealed in-Universe? Does Jon even know about the prophesy in-universe?

To my vest knowledge, he didn't. 

 

- Now, I mostly watch stuff while doing chores, so I might have missed it, but was there ever a scene of Jon going down to the crypts to pay his respects to Lyanna?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ser Uncle P said:

R&L=J is opportunity to subvert the "hidden heir" trope. 

Instead of inheriting the Throne, the rightful heir is exiled as a murderer and oath breaker.  

On paper it's a nice twist...

Sure this might be a nice meta-twist, executed properly. But it had jack to do with him actively knowing about it.

If the subversion was just wink between the writer and the audience, it could have been executed well: Through both deed AND by blood Jon is most worthy to rule, yet ironically outcast never knowing the truth. sure that could have been a neat author-audience understanding.

OR if it was revealed in-universe and paid-off through Jon struggling to come to terms with his right to rule (through both deed and blood), yet ultimately he was left outcast, then that also could have been a neat narrative trick. But Jon rejected his claim immediately.

Instead we got both and neither. The secret was set up in season 7 as something that Jon must know! and it was heavily implied that it would have some pay-off with the NK. But why did Jon need to know? There was no plot reason for Bran and Sam to need to tell him. Unless it was Bran actively ruining shit so he could be king. And neither did Jon really explore the conflict about his right to rule, so it served no thematic tension either. He immediately dismissed his right to rule.

So yeah, it was pointless to tell him in-show except as a catalyst to Dany going crazy. So why did he need to find out?

 

UPDATE: It occurs to me there was a similar problem with the "chosen one" prophesy in Anakin Skywalker. That knowledge never really affected his dramatic arc in any meaningful way in the movies. But at least there it drove the loss of faith in Obi-wan, and it retroactively gave more weight to his actions in RotJ. Unncessarily, imho, but at least you could point to a few things that it effected. R+L=J did jack shit for GoT. That's right: the Prequels were better executed than this mess!

Edited by iprayiam

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They did Jon dirty in this last season. All this building up all those seasons long only to have him banished back to wall (and for what purpose? The white walkers are gone..) He's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna for god sake, the LAST Targaryen.. The true heir to the Iron Throne. His character deserved more than this. 

also didn't Varys send off letters to the lords of Westeros so they would know about Jon's identity? 

Jon becoming the king would've been predictable and maybe a bit cheesy but it would've been better than Bran becoming king.

The only thing I appreciate about his fate is that his story ended where it began, at and beyond the wall. Poetic in a way. So things have come full circle, but it's bittersweet.. At least he got to reunite with Ghost. 

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19 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

UPDATE: It occurs to me there was a similar problem with the "chosen one" prophesy in Anakin Skywalker. That knowledge never really affected his dramatic arc in any meaningful way in the movies.

I thought that along with his power, being the chosen one contributed to his arrogance, which in turn alienated him towards the Council when he was not given the seat. - But I'm afraid  I no longer distinguish between RotS the movie and its novelisation, which did a splendid job fleshing out Anakin's downfall and sort of improved the film for me.

19 minutes ago, iprayiam said:

 the Prequels were better executed than this mess!

They were. Rushed as Anakin's turn was, there was a precedent for him murdering children, and that precedent had a plausible impulse in the torture and death of Schmi. If they let Dany burn KL right after Rhaegal's death, nobody would have protested, her rage would have been understandable and it would still be a terrible thing to do.

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13 hours ago, anjulibai said:

Was it really to just drive Dany nuts when it came out? Because it seems like it had no other affect on the story. 

It was to make Jon into someone Danny could never allow to live in the long run. Someone she would inevitably see as a threat that would need to be removed.

 

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24 minutes ago, EProduc said:

They did Jon dirty in this last season. All this building up all those seasons long only to have him banished back to wall (and for what purpose? The white walkers are gone..) He's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna for god sake, the LAST Targaryen.. The true heir to the Iron Throne. His character deserved more than this. 

also didn't Varys send off letters to the lords of Westeros so they would know about Jon's identity? 

Jon becoming the king would've been predictable and maybe a bit cheesy but it would've been better than Bran becoming king.

The only thing I appreciate about his fate is that his story ended where it began, at and beyond the wall. Poetic in a way. So things have come full circle, but it's bittersweet.. At least he got to reunite with Ghost. 

That's the whole point though.

That a guy that could and should have been king...ends up living with a group that doesn't even acknowledge such titles.

Maybe the show didn't do a great job handling it, but I believe that is what GRRMs message will be in the books, as well.  This was never going to be an Aragorn type of story.  I believe the book ending for Jon will be similar,  or he dies.  Either way, not king.

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36 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

To my vest knowledge, he didn't. 

 

- Now, I mostly watch stuff while doing chores, so I might have missed it, but was there ever a scene of Jon going down to the crypts to pay his respects to Lyanna?

He tells Dany in front of Lyanna. And Sansa had a scene in front of Lyanna in the past. I think their family had to know Lyanna Stark was not raped and Ned Stark did not have an affair. I don't think Jon had to be the true born son of R+L he could have stayed a bastard. 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

If we take a look at LOTR, Aragorn had it really easy due to the deaths of Boromir and Denethor. Had those two survived, things could have got very GRRMesque.

Well, Aragorn DOES take off the Elendilmir, has his banner furled and sets up his camp OUTSIDE the walls of Minas Tirith specifically because he knew how prickly Denethor was (having served under his father Ecthelion years before). He did so because he said he did not want dissension and debate about his claim to Gondor being challenged while Sauron was still in power. Aragorn feigns being "a Captain of Rangers of Arnor being unused to sleeping inside stone walls", showing just how canny he was about the politics of the situation. Its only when Gandalf asks him to come save the lives of Faramir, Eowyn and Meriadoc that he does come inside (and does so while in disguise, walking around with his cloak of Lorien). He ends up being exactly where he needed to be because "The Hands of the King are the Hands of a Healer" because so many Gondorians beg him to aid their dying relatives (and he does so with the help of Elladan and Elrohir). That was the catalyst that made the people love him.

And yea, R+L=J turned out to be a gigantic nothing-burger.
If Martin TRULY wants a Tolkien-like ending, having Jon Snow being thrown under the bus doesn't work. Yes, the Iron Throne might get melted down, but the succession crisis built-in for choosing Bran is going to be a generational blood-letting. Also, if A Song of Ice and Fire is supposed to be a fantastic retelling of The War of the Roses, it sure as drek cannot end this way....

Edited by TheNecromancerofMirkwood
Forgot something

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7 minutes ago, Skills said:

That's the whole point though.

That a guy that could and should have been king...ends up living with a group that doesn't even acknowledge such titles.

Maybe the show didn't do a great job handling it, but I believe that is what GRRMs message will be in the books, as well.  This was never going to be an Aragorn type of story.  I believe the book ending for Jon will be similar,  or he dies.  Either way, not king.

Yeah Jon not becoming king became very obvious in the later seasons, he didn't want it and that ending would've been way too predictable and expected, basically not how GoT works. 

 Still, I feel like his end was almost depressing, even though I saw a little smile on his face. I don't know, I'm still hesitant on how I feel about it. I feel like it's right end for him but I also feel like there could've been something bigger for him, after he was basically the main character with Dany. He could've at least stayed King in the North, but that's just my take on things. Idk, the whole R + L = J didn't get the right purpose in the show for me. Using it as one of the many reasons why Dany got mad is not enough.

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11 hours ago, darmody said:

Was it Bran's plan to drive her crazy? Otherwise, why did he insist it come out immediately before the battle?

Maybe it was Bran's plan to see how she would react. He knew she was on the edge but wanted to see what would happen? I don't know anymore. I want the next book. George will fix it. 

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2 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

R&L=J is opportunity to subvert the "hidden heir" trope. 

Instead of inheriting the Throne, the rightful heir is exiled as a murderer and oath breaker.  

On paper it's a nice twist...

A part of me hopes that Jon stays dead in the books, or lives his life through Ghost.

Then later on when it's realized who they killed, it's like oh no what did we do. Would be a nice way to flip the script on that trope.

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33 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

He tells Dany in front of Lyanna. And Sansa had a scene in front of Lyanna in the past. I think their family had to know Lyanna Stark was not raped and Ned Stark did not have an affair. I don't think Jon had to be the true born son of R+L he could have stayed a bastard. 

Ah. I totally forgot about the former (under the impact of the following inanity, I guess), while I remember the former quite well :-) But there is no more to that, right? No proclamation "Ned Stark will always be my father", no more talk about Lyanna and Rhaegar, right? Two people Jon never really knew are revealed to be his parents, yet he doesn't spare a thought (after the battle, I mean)

32 minutes ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Well, Aragorn DOES take off the Elendilmir, has his banner furled and sets up his camp OUTSIDE the walls of Minas Tirith specifically because he knew how prickly Denethor was (having served under his father Ecthelion years before). He did so because he said he did not want dissension and debate about his claim to Gondor being challenged while Sauron was still in power. Aragorn feigns being "a Captain of Rangers of Arnor being unused to sleeping inside stone walls", showing just how canny he was about the politics of the situation. Its only when Gandalf asks him to come save the lives of Faramir, Eowyn and Meriadoc that he does come inside (and does so while in disguise, walking around with his cloak of Lorien). He ends up being exactly where he needed to be because "The Hands of the King are the Hands of a Healer" because so many Gondorians beg him to aid their dying relatives (and he does so with the help of Elladan and Elrohir). That was the catalyst that made the people love him.

Yeah, and it suggests how problematic his claim might have become, had Denethor and Boromir survived. Denethor's madness may have exacerbated the issue but before the end, he made it quite clear that he considered Aragorn unworthy and wouldn't have accepted his claim (not to mention his old grudge against "Thorongil", as, IIRC, it was mentioned in the appendix that Denethor figured out his true identity). And Faramir mentioned potential rivalry between Aragorn and Boromir as captains of Gondor, as well - so, basically, having these two offed was a sort of cop-out :D

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ah. I totally forgot about the former (under the impact of the following inanity, I guess), while I remember the former quite well :-) But there is no more to that, right? No proclamation "Ned Stark will always be my father", no more talk about Lyanna and Rhaegar, right? Two people Jon never really knew are revealed to be his parents, yet he doesn't spare a thought (after the battle, I mean)

Yeah, and it suggests how problematic his claim might have become, had Denethor and Boromir survived. Denethor's madness may have exacerbated the issue but before the end, he made it quite clear that he considered Aragorn unworthy and wouldn't have accepted his claim (not to mention his old grudge against "Thorongil", as, IIRC, it was mentioned in the appendix that Denethor figured out his true identity). And Faramir mentioned potential rivalry between Aragorn and Boromir as captains of Gondor, as well - so, basically, having these two offed was a sort of cop-out :D

 

 

He told Sansa and Arya while Bran did. But we dont see the conversation. Then Sansa played the game and got herself a kingdom, Bran a kingdom and Arya a ship. Jon got punished. 

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1 hour ago, EProduc said:

Yeah Jon not becoming king became very obvious in the later seasons, he didn't want it and that ending would've been way too predictable and expected, basically not how GoT works. 

STOP. WITH. THIS. NONSENSE. OF. GOT BEING A SHOW ABOUT SUBVERT EXPECTATIONS. HOLY SHIT DUDE. NO. THE BOOKS AND THE SHOW (until season 6) WEREN'T ABOUT SUBVERT WHAT YOU EXPECT BUT TO SUBVERT FANTASY TROPES. FUCK THIS NARRATIVE.

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

For the life of me, I'll never understand why D&D refused to make more episodes when they were offered the chance, with Varys really rocking the boat to push Jon's claim.

I can't help but feel that extra episodes wouldn't have helped. Putting in more scenes would basically be giving the audience filler while spoon-feeding them the character development, 

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