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Bran Truly Was The Best Possible Choice To Rule

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Exactly. 

Bran could be the perfect ruler, much as I saw Tywin Lannister as a damn good one - shame he had such boneheads for children.

But you don't need to be a 'nice' person to rule.

No, you do not. 

I agree re. Tywin - he was quite a good ruler as Hand to Aerys.

 

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But should a sungle individual have that much power, unchecked in the end?

Fortunately, King Bran doesn't have the power to directly enforce unpopular decisions.  At least not now.  No dragon.  No standing army.  No bureaucracy.  A realm in relative ruins after so much war.

But a good question.

 

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Are we supposed the small council of jokesters and liars, novices and cutthroats will limit him or even try to?

The greenseer Bran gets my vote as the voice in the Tree, guiding people from disaster and calamity. Within reason.

King Bran?

The more I think about it, the more ot scares me.

Very understandable.  It's one thing to give advice.  Another to rule directly.  It may be better from Bran to stay the 'Voice in the  Tree', as you say.

It many respects, it can be better to be the power behind the throne rather than sitting on it.  The old 'grey eminence', as it were.

 

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Again, he'd be a perfectly ruthless cunt.

It's for your own good never sounded so sketchy.

Oh I agree.  A King (really an Emperor) saying this won't be believed by all of his/her subjects.  Especially by those whose own agenda conflicts with 'the greater good'.

Bran could be ruthless, yes.  I picture in a coldly logical, Vulcan kind of way.  And also in the way that Leto II Atreides was as God-Emperor of Dune as he set humanity on his Golden Path.

How does that saying go?  One persons hero/savior is another's tyrant or villian?

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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Hi. This is my first post...

 

While showBran was elected to power, bookBran may become king through conquest.

GRRM said it 14 years ago. [on scrapping the time skip]: "If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it."

Source: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Half_Moon_Bay_CA/

bookBran should be about 12 by the end of the series.

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The more I see people mention House Atreides the more I remember a very simplistic, jurassic computer game where all you did was mine spice and try to blow up the enemy house's holdings.

You could play House Atreides, in blue, as the good guys using the fremen as your ultimate weapon.

Or you could play House Harkonnen, in red, the bad guys, and build big ass guided missiles to nuke out those pesky blue settlements.

It's so sad that GoT was pared down until it had the same rationale of 'fire bad, wolf good'. 

House Atreides are spectacular cunts. Gotta love them.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

It's so sad that GoT was pared down until it had the same rationale of 'fire bad, wolf good'. 

I wouldn't say it came down to that.

It's more Ice bad, fire bad.  Fire is needed to defeat Ice, but then Fire has to go as well.

Just like after the first Long Night, the wolves gets to rebuild.  Brandon the Builder did found House Stark, among his other alleged accomplishments.  ;)

 

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House Atreides are spectacular cunts. Gotta love them.

True.  Very true.  They certainly are.  :)

 

 

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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3 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

It's more Ice bad, fire bad.  Fire is needed to defeat Ice, but then Fire has to go as well.

Just like after the first Long Night, the wolves gets to rebuild.  Brandon the Builder did found House Stark, among his other alleged accomplishments

Even this is much too deep for the type of audience they were trying to entice with the fantastic visual aspect, honestly really good score and simplistic storylines.

I meant without any background, by the end it was just an action movie.

By the time the popcorn is cold, Barbie!Dany's cold in the ground. Or in Drogon's claw. And it's a dumb meeting about stories, an election?, comedy hour and credits.

Waxing on about symbolism after the Bronn thing?

Drawing parallels from Bran the Broken to Bran the Builder, and the Starks shall inherit the Earth while Sam gets into a DeLorean to go steal some GrandMaester robes?

Just get your fremen budies and take those assholes in red and black off Arrakis.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think Bran is the best choice. He is an all-powerful being who can be anywhere whenever he wants and hear or watch what other people are doing. To me, that's not a democracy but a totalitarian state.

Yes, he can see into the past and learn from the mistakes, but so do people who read history books. 

Why would you want a God-like being in a story where the major theme is the battle between good and evil in people's hearts?

 

Edited by random girl from westeros

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

True.  Cerseis's power should have been very brittle.  We should have seen or hear of various rebellions against her.

re. the Tarly's, Cersei (or Jamie) offered them the Wardenship of the South.  The Tyrells in the show were going extinct, So their bannermen would be looking for The Next Thing (tm).   It does seems that other Reach lords follow Randall Tarly in supporting Cersei.  In particular the "marcher lords" on the borders with the Westerlands.

Cersei does convince them that Dany may be mad like her father, that few in the Realm liked.   And that Dany may just ignore the 'social contract' that the Crown has with the nobles.

 

Quibble/Question :  how is Cersei a kinslayer?

Sure but if the Tyrells were going extinct why weren't the Tarlys fishing to see what Daenerys would offer them before committing? That would've been sensible and it would've been a good start to Daenery's downfall where she refuses the practical solution (just promise the Tarlys control of the Reach once Olenna dies) because she doesn't want to reward and elevate another noble asshole like Randyll Tarly who's only concerned with increasing his own power but this idealism creates a big headache for her in the Reach since none of the nobility is now particularly inclined to declare for her. Now you would've had a political situation that at least tries to make sense and you've laid the seeds for Mad Queen Daenerys. Instead we got absolute nonsense where a bunch of nobles willingly travel to King's Landing and volunteer to join Cersei. 

She killed her uncle and cousin when she blew up the Sept of Baelor. Also everyone in Westeros would suspect her of having Tommen murdered so she could steal his throne. 

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It isn't.   I just 'refuse' to be put on the defensive or be labelled.  :)

The phrase 'patching up problems' is an attempt to put the 'other side' on the defensive.  ;)

 

we really don't have much to disagree about then.  I never said season 8 was perfect.  far from it, sadly.  there should have been 10 episodes.  or even 16 - 2x8 episode half seasons.   I can see what the showrunners wanted to communicate, and think that the overarching story and story points are there.  But the details ... well, the Devil is in the details, isn't it?

 

Didn't mean to put you on the defensive. It's just the way you responded made it sound like unless I was interested in supplying ideas as to how what the show did made sense I shouldn't have been talking. Sorry if I misinterpreted that. 

I too can see what the showrunners wanted to communicate. But I don't think the overarching story holds up at all because they didn't really attempt to tell one. In Queen Cersei we literally don't know anything about how she holds the throne except that the writers gave it to her and had people act like she had authority when she should've had none and somehow Daenerys isn't immeasurably more popular than her because the writers say so. In King Bran we just have Tyrion give a speech about stories that convinces a bunch of nobles to unanimously elect a weird foreign teenager in a wheelchair as King of Westeros. There's not really anything there and a lot more missing than the details. 

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That's fair.  :)

As I said, I can see the overarching story, but don't think that enough groundwork was laid or time taken to get from A to B, as it were.  So I guess that I don't think that it was profoundly stupid.  It just wasn't executed as well as it could have been.

As part of that, I do think that Dany received too much 'good press' for too long.  She was lauded up as an infallible heroine past when her faults should have been showing.

An interesting article that I read mentioned the excised prophecies re. Dany and how their inclusion may have made Dany's 'other side' more obvious or explainable.

Sadly, your are correct.  They are not part of the show, so they have to be 'made up' or inferred. 

But that's part of the fun, eh?  :)

 

Oh but for the Mummer's Dragon!  :) 
With 'fAegon' being excised, Cersei had to carry the brunt of his story.  With Jon picking up the rest.

 

And here's the thing again though based on what the show actually gave the viewers how are we supposed to consider King Bran or Queen Cersei as anything other than profoundly stupid? It throws out everything we were told about how politics in this world previously operated in order to elevate characters into positions they shouldn't be able to aspire to or hold. We can see this again in a minor fashion with Bronn, Sam, and to an extent Gendry. Now you or I can come up with our own reasoning as to how all of this could make sense but the show didn't and I can only judge the show based on what the show actually did. 

In the show Bran wasn't truly the best possible choice to rule. He was a terrible choice and no one should've ever chosen him. 

Edited by The One Who Kneels

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On 5/27/2019 at 9:05 PM, random girl from westeros said:

I don't think Bran is the best choice. He is an all-powerful being who can be anywhere whenever he wants and hear or watch what other people are doing. To me, that's not a democracy but a totalitarian state.

Yes, he can see into the past and learn from the mistakes, but so do people who read history books. 

Why would you want a God-like being in a story where the major theme is the battle between good and evil in people's hearts?

 

Those are interesting comments, but Bran is not "all-powerful."  That would mean he is omniscient AND omnipotent, but actually Bran is neither, much less both.

Still, I think I understand your concern about the fact that Bran IS very powerful, no doubt.  Westeros seems to still have a system of monarchy, though, so that's the framework I'm operating under when I form my opinion that Bran is the best choice.  I'm not saying that King Bran is the best of all possible governments, just that I think he's the best of all possible monarchs (among characters we know about) in the system Westeros still seems to have, which is...monarchy.

Under that system, and out of known characters, who do you think would have been a better choice than Bran?,

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Posted (edited)

Isaac Hempstead Wright just confirmed that GRRM told D&D that Bran would be the final king. Huge spoiler just casually revealed in an interview.

 

“David and Dan told me there were two things George R.R. Martin had planned for Bran—and that was the Hodor revelation, and that he would be king. So that’s pretty special to be directly involved in something that is part of George’s vision. It was a really nice way to wrap it up,” Hempstead-Wright said.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/at-least-one-big-game-of-thrones-finale-twist-came-from-1835122466

Edited by Kyrion
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Cron said:

Those are interesting comments, but Bran is not "all-powerful."  That would mean he is omniscient AND omnipotent, but actually Bran is neither, much less both.

Still, I think I understand your concern about the fact that Bran IS very powerful, no doubt.  Westeros seems to still have a system of monarchy, though, so that's the framework I'm operating under when I form my opinion that Bran is the best choice.  I'm not saying that King Bran is the best of all possible governments, just that I think he's the best of all possible monarchs (among characters we know about) in the system Westeros still seems to have, which is...monarchy.

Under that system, and out of known characters, who do you think would have been a better choice than Bran?,

Anyone, even then cook would be better than Big-Brother mind controlling alien creature.

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An unwritten code for free folk skinchangers, as told by Haggon, forbids them to eat of human meat and to mate as wolf with wolf. Seizing the body of another man is considered the worst abomination.

How many of those did Bran already break, do people think he would become into benevolent ruler.

He also doesn't have any ambition to rule and so far his record as ruler isn't really great. With 12 years he wouldn't be much better. 

Edited by Eltharion21

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Bran has no leadership qualities whatsoever. No charisma. No fierceness. No vitality, and no groundbreaking visions. He's probably even a step down from the self centred Cersei Lannister. 

If anything, Bran is such a weirdo he could potentially get Westeros into big trouble. How would he deal with rebellions, the Iron Bank, diplomatic relations? But there won't be a season 9 chronicling Bran The Broken's boring reign, thank God!

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Cron said:

Those are interesting comments, but Bran is not "all-powerful."  That would mean he is omniscient AND omnipotent, but actually Bran is neither, much less both.

Still, I think I understand your concern about the fact that Bran IS very powerful, no doubt.  Westeros seems to still have a system of monarchy, though, so that's the framework I'm operating under when I form my opinion that Bran is the best choice.  I'm not saying that King Bran is the best of all possible governments, just that I think he's the best of all possible monarchs (among characters we know about) in the system Westeros still seems to have, which is...monarchy.

Under that system, and out of known characters, who do you think would have been a better choice than Bran?,

Well, based on Tyrion' speech about who has a better story, I think Old Nan.

Why would any of the Lords want Bran, someone that most of them don't know, as King? On top of that, he is a northerner. We need to see from the political side of things since the Bran didn't do any particular thing to gain the trust of any Lord in the south. We know what Bran went through and apparently so does Tyrion, but do the southern Lords know? We need to look at this from the point of view of the character in the story, not as a spectator of the show. This isn't about me thinking if Bran is the best choice for King, but the Lords of Westeros.

In my opinion, as a spectator, I don't think a God Emperor is the right choice to be the King of anything. It's a little too 1984 and North Korean for me. But this is my opinion based on circumstances that I have, as a person on the 21st century with access to information, the knowledge of how retrograde monarchies are, let alone one with power being able to spy into the conversation of other (Bran has the ability to warg), I like my privacy, thank you. 

Having a God-like figure as a representation of power on earth says a lot about the little faith in humanity. If the main theme of Ice and Fire and by some extension, the TV series is the conflict between right and wrong in the heart of men, and how horrible is war, that nothing good comes from it. Putting Bran (God-like being) as King doesn't solve the problem. It bypasses it.

Edited by random girl from westeros

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18 minutes ago, random girl from westeros said:

We know what Bran went through and apparently so does Tyrion, but do the southern Lords know?

Lol. According to D&D, idiot southerners don't get a vote. Or they get to say 'aye' jist because. In Westeros' constituency they are irrelevant.

So, war on the WW needs to be up close and personal for all of Westeros, maybe?

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8 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

So, war on the WW needs to be up close and personal for all of Westeros, maybe?

To me, one of the main problems of the show was how they treated the WW at the end. It was supposed to be a great war and a Long Night. It was none. 

I was expecting the war against the WW to be brought down south. It would have served several things: 

-united the kingdoms, make them see that war for power is ultimately petty.

-the long night would have been longer and we would feel that indeed the battle was unwinnable and a sense of dread and suspense for the characters' lives and Westeros. 

-perhaps Bran would have done something big and people would have rallied behind him. Instead of staring at the weirdwood tree. (he did nothing)

I like the idea of the Iron Throne being destroyed, but the fact that was caused by a tantrum of an animal, was cheap. It should have been destroyed by humans as a symbol that mankind shouldn't fight over power but for survival.  They would come to this conclusion because they just witnessed annihilation and overcome it. 

The symbol of power that caused many wars being destroyed by a temper tantrum of an animal and the choosing of a God-like figure as King robes humans of any kind of self-determination.    

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OP

Bran shouldn’t be King for a few reasons:

1) He’s a vessel for the Old Gods. His most recent chapters strongly suggest that there is something deeply wrong with their magic and sinister. The fact the Children created the Others means they are no friends of humanity. So their puppet becoming King has terrible implications for humanity, the Andals and the faith of the seven.

2) GRRM would be applying a double standard if he insists that power corrupts absolutely with Dany and yet this kid gets a pass coz reasons. Why should we believe that an all seeing God Emperor entombed upon his  weir wood throne be good for everyone?

3) If you wanted to “go there” with a character becoming the avatar of a God and taking over; it being Daenerys “bride of fire” etc etc would have been much cooler. However I think many fans would consider that kind of turn to be left field in general.

4) He is one of the least liked POV characters and his story is generally disliked. Him becoming such a central character would irk a lot of people. Even Linda who is an Uber fan and personally knows George did not think he would become King but would stay in the tree.

5) It’s a terrible moral message. Trying to be a good ruler like Dany or Jon doesn’t matter? What matters is being born with magic powers?

6) It praises emotional stoicism as the highest virtue. Being apathetic and dispassionate is not a virtue.

 

 

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I guess if you view the ill constructed scene at the end as a 'this is how it'll be from now on' paradigm?

King Bran dedicates himself to higher matters of magic and world balance: 'I'll just go see what that silly Drogon is up to, shall I?'

The council rules on all matters of state with as little interference from the King as the likes of Bobby B.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

2) GRRM would be applying a double standard if he insists that power corrupts absolutely with Dany and yet this kid gets a pass coz reasons. Why should we believe that an all seeing God Emperor entombed upon his  weir wood throne be good for everyone?

Nonsense, it would work out perfectly well, give it some time and  fanatical religion  will be forming around him and  genocidal knightly orders to conquer galaxy. ;)

Edited by Eltharion21

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I just don’t understand Bran.  What did Tyrion mean he has the best story? Was Tyrion entertained by what Bran told him and thought the rest of Westeros would be to?  I don’t consider Bran a great conversationalist and the fact he could be a great storyteller just seems bizarre. How could anyone know for sure he is a force for good since we know practically nothing about the origins of the first 3YR which may not be Brynden Rivers.  I just don’t see how anyone could make a judgment about him being the best choice given the limited information available.   All I know from his robotic speech is that he really isn’t  Bran anymore, he can’t be Lord of Winterfell cause he is the 3ER, Theon is a good man, that folks like Theon, Jaime, and Jon were exactly where they were suppose to be, and that he came to the council cause he knew he supposedly would be king.  Is he a god or is he being used by the cotf?  Just trying to figure him out gives me a headache.  Hope GRRM gives us more about him than the show did.

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3 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

I just don’t understand Bran.  What did Tyrion mean he has the best story? Was Tyrion entertained by what Bran told him and thought the rest of Westeros would be to?  I don’t consider Bran a great conversationalist and the fact he could be a great storyteller just seems bizarre. How could anyone know for sure he is a force for good since we know practically nothing about the origins of the first 3YR which may not be Brynden Rivers.  I just don’t see how anyone could make a judgment about him being the best choice given the limited information available.   All I know from his robotic speech is that he really isn’t  Bran anymore, he can’t be Lord of Winterfell cause he is the 3ER, Theon is a good man, that folks like Theon, Jaime, and Jon were exactly where they were suppose to be, and that he came to the council cause he knew he supposedly would be king.  Is he a god or is he being used by the cotf?  Just trying to figure him out gives me a headache.  Hope GRRM gives us more about him than the show did.

He doesn't mean that Bran is a great story teller. Tyrion means that Bran's journey of hardship from broken boy to seer was the most convincing one of all the possible candidates. He was the rightful Lord of Winterfell as Ned Stark's eldest surviving son, and yet he never sought that position.  You'll recognize that Bran's story was that of the Last Hero from Old Nan's tales. His was always going to be a story for all the ages. That makes a great story because it will be so long remembered. It's something people can get behind.

This guy pieces together the pieces we do know pretty convincingly, and he does so without having to guess about things we don't know like the Children's real tale. When you look at what Bran actually did this season, he's the prime mover on setting up the complex domino that brought him to the exact spot he ended up in. He's the one who insisted that Sam tell Jon of Jon's true heritage at the exact moment needed. So Jon told Dany, who started to fear he'd claim his birthright, and that's why Bran got Jon to tell Arya and Sansa, who told Tyrion, who told Varys, who was so convinced he got himself executed immediately after telling Tyrion that he hoped he was wrong. And Bran intervened to save Jaime, in a curious sense: he didn't tell anyone else that Jaime had crippled him. That way Jaime wasn't summarily executed, and would survive to try to return to Cersei only to be captured by Dany so that Tyrion would free his brother to die in their sister's arms at Dany's hand and be found that way by Dany's Hand, which made Tyrion resign in disgust as Hand after accusing Dany of murdering a city, and get thrown in the dungeon for treason, where Jon would visit him and be implored to save his sisters. And earlier Bran had told Tyrion Bran's own story. Then once Jon and Tyrion were both in the dungeon, Tyrion had a lot of time to think.

None of the other Lords Paramount were anything at all. And the whole council was completely dominated by Winterfell and Winterfell's family and supporters: Uncle Edmure for the Riverlands, Cousin Robin with Lord Royce from Vale, Cousin Gendry for the Stormlands, Sam for the Reach, etc etc etc. None of them was himself a candidate for the kingship, but he would certainly support Ned Stark's only surviving son in that position. That made Bran an easy pick.

And not just by the council sitting that day. By Bloodraven. He had already chosen the next king by the end of the first episode of the first season.

We just didn't know it yet.

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2 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

He doesn't mean that Bran is a great story teller. Tyrion means that Bran's journey of hardship from broken boy to seer was the most convincing one of all the possible candidates. He was the rightful Lord of Winterfell as Ned Stark's eldest surviving son, and yet he never sought that position.  You'll recognize that Bran's story was that of the Last Hero from Old Nan's tales. His was always going to be a story for all the ages. That makes a great story because it will be so long remembered. It's something people can get behind.

This guy pieces together the pieces we do know pretty convincingly, and he does so without having to guess about things we don't know like the Children's real tale. When you look at what Bran actually did this season, he's the prime mover on setting up the complex domino that brought him to the exact spot he ended up in. He's the one who insisted that Sam tell Jon of Jon's true heritage at the exact moment needed. So Jon told Dany, who started to fear he'd claim his birthright, and that's why Bran got Jon to tell Arya and Sansa, who told Tyrion, who told Varys, who was so convinced he got himself executed immediately after telling Tyrion that he hoped he was wrong. And Bran intervened to save Jaime, in a curious sense: he didn't tell anyone else that Jaime had crippled him. That way Jaime wasn't summarily executed, and would survive to try to return to Cersei only to be captured by Dany so that Tyrion would free his brother to die in their sister's arms at Dany's hand and be found that way by Dany's Hand, which made Tyrion resign in disgust as Hand after accusing Dany of murdering a city, and get thrown in the dungeon for treason, where Jon would visit him and be implored to save his sisters. And earlier Bran had told Tyrion Bran's own story. Then once Jon and Tyrion were both in the dungeon, Tyrion had a lot of time to think.

None of the other Lords Paramount were anything at all. And the whole council was completely dominated by Winterfell and Winterfell's family and supporters: Uncle Edmure for the Riverlands, Cousin Robin with Lord Royce from Vale, Cousin Gendry for the Stormlands, Sam for the Reach, etc etc etc. None of them was himself a candidate for the kingship, but he would certainly support Ned Stark's only surviving son in that position. That made Bran an easy pick.

And not just by the council sitting that day. By Bloodraven. He had already chosen the next king by the end of the first episode of the first season.

We just didn't know it yet.

Thanks for including the link to the video as well as your explanation. I subscribed to his channel..  I felt it was significant that he noted the 3YR was the winner of Game of Thrones rather than Bran when he concluded.  I saw elsewhere today of someone noting there was a raven sitting on the throne with Ned Stark in a poster from Season One.  No idea if that was meant as a spoiler at the time but interesting nonetheless.  I understand that Bran’s journey is a compelling story.  I was just questioning his ability to tell it to others since his speaking skills aren’t the best. However, he was apparently able to present it to Tyrion rather quickly that night and that was who needed to know in the long run.  There is still much about the 3YR that is shrouded in mystery (at least for me) and I would like to know more.

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