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Bran Truly Was The Best Possible Choice To Rule

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Show Bran was not the best choice. The elective monarchy won't work (hello even number of regions now too) and his death will set up a nice juicy civil war. Happy fighting.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/4/2019 at 8:19 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

No argument there, Sansa is my choice for queen of Westeros. I'm just trying to understand GRRM's POV on Bran as king since this was confirmed from the author. It seems like he really thinks time travelers ruling will be great because he will know exactly what mistakes were made so they dont repeat them. Or something.

I wouldn't say that Sansa is my choice for Queen of Westeros (book or show) but she sure as heck has better qualifications than non-human, constantly spacing out, uncommunicative 3ER.

This outlook of GRRM's is not new however. If you look at some of his other written literature, it's filled with such characters. Show-Bran as King of any kind makes less than 0 sense. But the show is a wholly different story than the books. GRRM's ending did not work for the show D&D had been writing. For example I could imagine book Bran, who leaves before he gets completely sucked into the weirwood.net or becomes the 3EC, as a candidate. But only if all the knowledge he has is restricted to the past and limited in the present. And if he stays a freaking human being and doesn't become a lifeless robot like the show. Then you have someone with literally the knowledge of all the mistakes of previous rulers but who also cares to make the world better.

On 7/4/2019 at 10:18 PM, Cron said:

The issues you raise about free will, fate, pre-determination, etc., are very complex (and would require a LOT of writing by me to respond to it all line by line), but I've not seen anything so far that would lead me to believe that Bran has had less tragic options available for him to consider yet chose a path that led to hundreds of thousands of innocent people being crossed off just because he wanted to be king.

A million dead in a few weeks is a million dead. You know what would be less tragic? For those people not to be dead. And that concerns both the people who died during the Long Night and the burning of KL. They literally did not have to die if Bran had EVER intervened in a positive way. He only did in a negative, both by inaction and action. There are no ifs or buts for me. A million people did not have to die, period. But he had manouvered everything where he wanted it and not for the good of the people.

On 7/4/2019 at 10:18 PM, Cron said:

To my knowledge, we have NOT been given such information, and because all of the information we HAVE been given about Bran is that he is fundamentally good (both in his POV chapters in the books, where we actually get into his head, and in the show, based on his words and deeds), and so long as that is true I'm inclined to give him the benefit of any doubt rather than speculating that "well, maybe he's actually a bad guy," and then just assuming that is true.

This is not the books, this is the show. And the show has made it clear over and over and then some, BRAN STARK IS DEAD. He only exists as an abstract in a collective of 'minds'. Why are so many people still not willing to accept that? It's been one of the few things on the show that has been stated over and over again to the point that it's nothing vague or implied, it's FACT. Bran is gone, in his body is an entity called the 3ER. You don't look at this being's actions and decisions in terms of Bran Stark. You look at it in terms of the 3ER. And there is nothing in the show to suggest that this being is good or evil, true. However, considering who was guarding it (and might have made it in the show), the haters of mankind, you can infer your own theories from that.

On 7/4/2019 at 10:18 PM, Cron said:

Having said all that, I am not claiming it's impossible for Bran to be bad, just that I believe it's not consistent with information we've been given so far.

There is plenty to suggest that 3ER (stop calling him Bran when talking about the show) didn't have humanities best interest at heart. However I don't think D&D intended so many people to think that an evil entity is now in control of Westeros. And even without the possibility of him being anti-human (which he is to me but that's not synonymous with evil), there are plenty who think having a 3ER kind of character in charge is worse than what came before. And they are right with their reasoning. But it all comes down to writing. My guess is that D&D didn't know more than 'Bran becomes King' and had to wing it. And if they did know more they couldn't do it better because they have always neglected the supernatural part of GRRM's world. It's one of the many reasons why I make a clear divide between books and show. One shouldn't argue what happens in the show on the grounds of the books and vice versa.

Edited by Mystical

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Posted (edited)

Just gotta say - my Dad, poor old man who I rarely connect with - thought Bran would be the final monarch after season 1. Why? Coz Brans journey extended to a realm beyond the other characters - the metaphysical. I don't often connect with my dad but I gotta say, perhaps we overthought this whole fucking thing? Perhaps GRRM always knew that the poor boy pushed to his death, who embraced the other, would be king?

NB - not trying to defend D&Ds storytelling - that sucked, Just noting I think there was a good story here and I am pissed at both GRRM for not finishing and D&D fir being literary fuckwits.

Edited by ummester

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ummester said:

Just gotta say - my Dad, poor old man who I rarely connect with - thought Bran would be the final monarch after season 1. Why? Coz Brans journey extended to a realm beyond the other characters - the metaphysical. I don't often connect with my dad but I gotta say, perhaps we overthought this whole fucking thing? Perhaps GRRM always knew that the poor boy pushed to his death, who embraced the other, would be king?

NB - not trying to defend D&Ds storytelling - that sucked, Just noting I think there was a good story here and I am pissed at both GRRM for not finishing and D&D fir being literary fuckwits.

Well I think this is actually one of the problems GRRM has.  GRRM is so much a gardner author, but he has a paticular shape in mind.  And he's had to give up several parts of that shape already as the story developed, and I imagine he'll have to give up still more.  Otherwise we'll get the sort of ending we saw in the tv show, where things are just arbitrarily forced into a final shape rather than getting there naturally.

For GRRM he has to keep pruning and adjusting gently to  get the story to grow both on its own, and to a final shape that he wants.  That seems like it would be very challenging, especially given how large its grown to be.

If you just decide at the begining, "Bran will be King," but Bran's story doesn't grow that way, you just end up with an unsatisfying twist that makes no sense and looks like a plot hole.   

Edited by argonak

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On 7/4/2019 at 2:19 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

No argument there, Sansa is my choice for queen of Westeros. I'm just trying to understand GRRM's POV on Bran as king since this was confirmed from the author. It seems like he really thinks time travelers ruling will be great because he will know exactly what mistakes were made so they dont repeat them. Or something.

It's not just Bran's knowledge of the past that is important (although that IS incredibly important).

He also has knowledge of the present (or, if you like, at a bare minimum, the "very near past," so near that they are effectively current events) AND the future (which was absolutely vital to winning the war against the Night King

Also, of course, Bran's lack of ambition and desire (as Bran said, he "doesn't want anymore") also make him singularly and ideally well suited to rule.  This is theme we have been given multiple times in the series, especially in the Jon Snow storyline, but of course this is amped up even more dramatically in the case of Bran (since he "doesn't want, anymore")

As a result, as long as he is benevolent, in my opinion Bran is by far the best choice to rule, with no one else even remotely close. 

(Regarding whether he is benevolent:  There are theories that he has somehow been corrupted, but I don't believe the evidence is there to support that.  Sure, he became mysterious and opaque after becoming the 3 Eyed Raven, but those mere facts do not necessarily make him evil.   Also, don't forget, we have Bran's internal monologue (POV) from the books, where he is clearly fundamentally good, and we have been told that Bran becoming king is canon from GRRM.)

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On 7/20/2019 at 4:09 AM, argonak said:

Well I think this is actually one of the problems GRRM has.  GRRM is so much a gardner author, but he has a paticular shape in mind.  And he's had to give up several parts of that shape already as the story developed, and I imagine he'll have to give up still more.  Otherwise we'll get the sort of ending we saw in the tv show, where things are just arbitrarily forced into a final shape rather than getting there naturally.

For GRRM he has to keep pruning and adjusting gently to  get the story to grow both on its own, and to a final shape that he wants.  That seems like it would be very challenging, especially given how large its grown to be.

If you just decide at the begining, "Bran will be King," but Bran's story doesn't grow that way, you just end up with an unsatisfying twist that makes no sense and looks like a plot hole.   

Well that is why you have to decide, at the onset, whether you are writing a saga or a serial. A saga has a defined ending, a serial does not. I think GRRM started off writing a saga and then decided it would be better as a serial when the show made it popular.

Man, I am still so annoyed with the conclusion of GoTs - some elements just sweated excellent, subversive storytelling. Jamie/Brienne/Cersie was brilliant (in plotting, if not execution) as was Dany's arc. But the Night King and the magic and lore just sucked. For sure, GRRM is a character gardener and a shit world builder. But, in the end, it proved that D&D were just shit at both. I am just so annoyed - such potential wasted.

ASoIaF/GoTs could have been LotRs or Star Wars (OT) - which I am sure history will judge as rivals to older classics - it is just so annoying it missed the mark.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ummester said:

Well that is why you have to decide, at the onset, whether you are writing a saga or a serial. A saga has a defined ending, a serial does not. I think GRRM started off writing a saga and then decided it would be better as a serial when the show made it popular.

Man, I am still so annoyed with the conclusion of GoTs - some elements just sweated excellent, subversive storytelling. Jamie/Brienne/Cersie was brilliant (in plotting, if not execution) as was Dany's arc. But the Night King and the magic and lore just sucked. For sure, GRRM is a character gardener and a shit world builder. But, in the end, it proved that D&D were just shit at both. I am just so annoyed - such potential wasted.

ASoIaF/GoTs could have been LotRs or Star Wars (OT) - which I am sure history will judge as rivals to older classics - it is just so annoying it missed the mark.

 

Jamie being completly addicted to Cersei could have worked, but they didn't (in my opinion) set it up properly.  instead it was just a pointless bait and switch with his whole character arc falling apart for no apparent reason.  Like a drug addict who through the entire show makes it through the entire 12 step program, crosses the whole world to find a new family and support structure, gets clean and sober and sees the light of a real purposeful life.  And then he just throws it all away, drives across an ENTIRE continent to find his old dealer, and dies of an overdose.  Thats what I really hate about that.  Cersei doesn't even get to write Jamie a letter in this one to beg him to take her back, he just goes on his own.

I think their real mistake was to leave Cersei  and Jamie alive until the end.  They had the perfect opportunity to end her and jamie's arc at the begining of season 7 and focus on the night king, but didn't.  I really don't know why.  Tommen was dead.  Myrcella was dead.  it was the right time for the Volunqar to come kill her.  It even makes sense, Jamie threw everything he dreamed of away to save king's landing, and Cersei blew it up to cover for her (and his) mistakes.  It would have been perfect.  But no we didn't get that.  

If you prune Cersei and Jamie out at the begining of season 7, you've got an entire season to build up the Others while team good guy tries to unite the wreckage of the realm against them.  Then you've got season 8 to conclude the story.

Oh well.

Edited by argonak

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