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I just wanted to talk about the shows end system of government for Westeros  and how I think it  is a worse  long term solution for peace then the previous system. Yes, on paper it is good that the each individual kingdom now will have a say over who rules them. It is also a small step towards democracy which is also good.  Also, The new system of electing the king who will rule over all the kingdoms will make it a lot less likely for a mad man to end up ruling over them. That being said in my opinion the new system vastly increases the likelihood  that war will eventually break out in the future.

Yes, While Bran is ruler and those who chose this system of government live there will be peace. The problem with the new system is it doesn't  really change the power dynamics of the  6 kingdoms at all. The lords and ladys of these six kingdoms still have immense power and are the viewed rulers over there people.  Those that come into power over these kingdoms will still come into power through birth. Now instead of having the King who will rule over Westeros set in stone from birth, The future Lords and Ladys  of these 6 kingdoms will now grow up being told, You will grow up to rule this castle, be Lord over this kingdom , Get to decide the future ruler of all the Kingdoms, Oh....and You have a chance at being that person. Doesn't  that sound like recipe for Disaster? The inevitable will happen. A bunch of pampered Lords and Ladys will grow up thinking they should be the ones that should rule the Six kingdoms . When it comes time to vote on who will become King the decision will be split and war will break out. The new system would only  work for a long period of time  if you can manage take away the mass amounts of power Certain individuals  currently have  within the kingdoms themselves.

Also don't get me started on how somehow the north just claimed there independence and all the other kingdoms were  just fine with letting them be the only ones to have there own kingdom.

What do you guys think of the new Six kingdoms? Do you think its more or less likely to lead to long term peace?

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Is this what the show is telling us? You cannot break the wheel? Ok there is now a sort of roman democracy but that is a fairly slim form of democracy. Ultimatley there is still a king, the arguments in the Hand's meetings pretty much are the same. Everything is pretty much the same. 

Dany wanted to break the wheel for all but openly admitted that the only route would be a morally difficult one. But at the end of that journey would be a paradise. 

Thing is, Jon would rather the unfair system they had with a slight few tweaks than actually take the journey to paradise.

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Roman democracy was essentially an oligarchy, even at its best times.

Elective kingship has tended to go hand in hand with weak kingship, barring the occasional king that manages to maneuvre actual power out of a position that a lot of the nobles that elect him would prefer to have as little power over them as possible. It can be relatively stable, as things go - at least if the "constitutional" base for it is widely accepted - but also quite inefficient.

The medievalesque technological development of Westeros doesn't really make it possible to have actual democracy. The continent is simply too large. Universal suffrage tended to be constrained by property or wealth qualifications even in the early-to-mid 19th century, and even those voters, with vastly more pocket money for travel (and pocket money for paying someone to run their farms for them)  would often be hindered from attending elections by weather, flooding, accidents, et cetera.

At the "moment" Westeros is rather tired of war, so perhaps Bran can establish some sort of order early, especially as he has his own creature at the top in the Reach (and the Stormlands?) and the support of the now-not-a-subsidiary-kingdom North through sis. But in the future, it seems likely that the electoral kingship will remain rather inefficient as the great lords and ladies elect the least threatening kings they can get their hands on. This will likely mean more internal strife, especially between hereditary enemies such as the Reach, Stormlands and Dorne, piratical ambitions from the Iron Isles, and eventually (either through an alliance of great houses or a strong king that can wrangle power out of his position) attempts to reconquer the North.  

 

 

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Westeros = E.U.

Sansa Stark = Theresa May 

GRRM foreshadowed it all

It is hard to tell with prophecies but I guess Wales is going to disappear into the east. The queen will be exiled to the Northern Ireland border and Harry The Super Ninja Soldier will fuck off to the U.S. 

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They never show how stable the elective king will be. I presume the first few years are quiet but it could all start again after Bran dies. It's also possible the kingship becomes a regular one after 3-4 kings. It wouldn't be an outlier (HRE and early France) to have every son "happening" to be elected.

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56 minutes ago, Pauld123 said:

Is this what the show is telling us? You cannot break the wheel? Ok there is now a sort of roman democracy but that is a fairly slim form of democracy. Ultimatley there is still a king, the arguments in the Hand's meetings pretty much are the same. Everything is pretty much the same. 

Dany wanted to break the wheel for all but openly admitted that the only route would be a morally difficult one. But at the end of that journey would be a paradise. 

Thing is, Jon would rather the unfair system they had with a slight few tweaks than actually take the journey to paradise.

Jon decided the cost was too high... if it could have been done without destroying the women and children he was ready to follow her to the end.

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I think Jon realized that Dany intended to mow over, by Unsullied sword or Drogon's fire, anyone who disagreed with her or who stood, however innocently, in castles or towns she planned to conquer.  Sooner or later she'd have wanted to execute Davos and Sam as well as others, lords and smallfolk, not to mention Sansa and Arya.  

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It kinda surprised me that when Sansa stepped in and declared the North independent, no one followed her. The Iron Islands, the Vale and Dorne were always kinda isolated from the rest the empire. Dorne was the only kingdom that were never truly conquered. And yet they happily agreed to give the rule to a wierd kid in a wheelchair. Imo it would make more sense if either The North remained in the empire, or more kingdoms became independent, or all the kingdoms became independent but they formed an union (like the EU) and Bran is the head of the union.

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6 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

It kinda surprised me that when Sansa stepped in and declared the North independent, no one followed her. The Iron Islands, the Vale and Dorne were always kinda isolated from the rest the empire. Dorne was the only kingdom that were never truly conquered. And yet they happily agreed to give the rule to a wierd kid in a wheelchair. Imo it would make more sense if either The North remained in the empire, or more kingdoms became independent, or all the kingdoms became independent but they formed an union (like the EU) and Bran is the head of the union.

I think Dorne and Iron Islands weren't part of the 7 kingdoms anyway? I guess they are represented as the meeting affects all of Westeros, not just the 7 kingdoms. 

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Posted (edited)

There's not much point analyzing the political structure of the realm at show's end. We didn't even know what was going on outside of a few castles and magically teleporting armies last coupla seasons. Little information was given on the forthcoming rule of Bran the Lame. 

At least we got to see there were more than three lords in Westeros. The Stormlands, Riverlands, Reach, and Dorne weren't a free-for-all of orgiastic violence. 

Edited by darmody

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1 hour ago, Pauld123 said:

Is this what the show is telling us? You cannot break the wheel? Ok there is now a sort of roman democracy but that is a fairly slim form of democracy. Ultimatley there is still a king, the arguments in the Hand's meetings pretty much are the same. Everything is pretty much the same. 

Dany wanted to break the wheel for all but openly admitted that the only route would be a morally difficult one. But at the end of that journey would be a paradise. 

Thing is, Jon would rather the unfair system they had with a slight few tweaks than actually take the journey to paradise.

You have very strange vision of paradice. Eunuchs, aka unsullied, and army of savages, aka dothraki, plus fire breathing dragon with his mother, who enjoys shooter video games.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, House Of Wolves said:

What do you guys think of the new Six kingdoms? Do you think its more or less likely to lead to long term peace?

There will be a Dorne uprising. After all, weak men in a wheelchair will never again rule Dorne. I'm also very excited to read all about Aragorn's  Bran's tax policy. GRRM promised it. :rofl:

Edited by SirArthur

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Elective monarchy is just like presidential election only this time, it's for life, it's much worse since common people doesn't get to vote, and they're voting from all other lords instead of a single lineage, in a long run it's a recipe for another Civil war.

North - in a severe winter they experience famine, and Aegon V have to send large shipment of food to support them, in future if this happen how will they survive?, and what's to stop future kings from invading the North?.

 

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9 minutes ago, The Red Waste said:

I think Dorne and Iron Islands weren't part of the 7 kingdoms anyway? I guess they are represented as the meeting affects all of Westeros, not just the 7 kingdoms. 

They are or at least should be or at least they were at the beginning of the story. The original 7 kingdoms are, unless I'm mistaken, The North, The Vale, Riverlands, The Reach, The Stormlands, Dorne and the Westerlands (Lannisters). The Iron Islands were part of the Riverlands. I admit that the status of the II and Dorne (and The North) became kinda uncertain during the course of the story but following the finale, they are apparently parts of the "6K" again.

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17 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

It kinda surprised me that when Sansa stepped in and declared the North independent, no one followed her. The Iron Islands, the Vale and Dorne were always kinda isolated from the rest the empire. Dorne was the only kingdom that were never truly conquered. And yet they happily agreed to give the rule to a wierd kid in a wheelchair. Imo it would make more sense if either The North remained in the empire, or more kingdoms became independent, or all the kingdoms became independent but they formed an union (like the EU) and Bran is the head of the union.

This. It makes no fucking sense that the other kingdoms, especially Dorne and the Iron Islands don't declare independence after Sansa gets her way with an independent North. That election scene is the most stupid scene in the entire show. Lords of Westeros just sitting there calmly watching an Unsullied commander from Essos carrying out justice after the threat of Dany plus dragon doesn't exist anymore is beyond dumb, Jon having to take up the black because Grey Worm said so, only for him and the Unsullied plus Dothraki to leave Westeros after that to never return....I just can't..

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1 hour ago, The Red Waste said:

I think Dorne and Iron Islands weren't part of the 7 kingdoms anyway? I guess they are represented as the meeting affects all of Westeros, not just the 7 kingdoms. 

It's;

  • Dorne
  • Westerlands
  • Stormlands
  • The Reach
  • Iron Islands
  • The Vale
  • The North

'' Each of the 7 kingdoms and the Riverlands.''

 

''Seven kingdoms to rule! One king, seven kingdoms!''

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1 hour ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

This. It makes no fucking sense that the other kingdoms, especially Dorne and the Iron Islands don't declare independence after Sansa gets her way with an independent North. That election scene is the most stupid scene in the entire show. Lords of Westeros just sitting there calmly watching an Unsullied commander from Essos carrying out justice after the threat of Dany plus dragon doesn't exist anymore is beyond dumb, Jon having to take up the black because Grey Worm said so, only for him and the Unsullied plus Dothraki to leave Westeros after that to never return....I just can't..

Yeah. I was like "just execute him [GW], stop discussing with him!"

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1 hour ago, Gendarrion said:

North - in a severe winter they experience famine, and Aegon V have to send large shipment of food to support them, in future if this happen how will they survive?, and what's to stop future kings from invading the North?.

Are the Riverlands part of the North now? If so, I guess that's where they'll source their food. Nothing stopping a future King or Ironborn raiders or some Essosi invading the North though.

For now, nothing will happen because, conveniently, the King is brother to the QitN. Seriously, how are any of the other regions just cool with this?

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Wasn't the vale pledged to Sansa? Seems like they'd have left with her. And I'd have a hard time imagining the Riverlands not leaving with the north as well. Edmure knows his house is bound to both the Vale and North by blood whereas all it'd take is a ruler who's upset with the Tully's to wreak havoc on the Riverlands sticking as part of the 6. 

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