Jump to content
pudgiebudgie

Every character's fate, and their decisions, made total sense.

Recommended Posts

ASOIAF looks like a mess of non-overlapping story messages and morals at first glance, but look deeply and you can see that there is only one main story being told: 

  • The importance of protecting children, and the consequences of failure.
  • The psychological weapons and tools unprotected children create to protect themselves when others will not.
  • The ways these tools and weapons are frequently harmful both to the individual and the people they love.
  • The cycle of trauma, anger, abuse, that these damaged children thus continue to spread

I have put together a series of entries for both major and minor characters showing how each and every one tells this story in a slightly different way, but how all point towards the conclusion we finally see. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/154628-asoiafs-overall-theme-the-protection-of-children-starting-with-sandors-arc-and-his-threefold-death-i-will-show-it-to-you/

But I'll summarise a couple of major characters here.

I always thought GRRM's stuffing his story with prophecies was lame, but it in itself is symbolic, because nearly all his prophecies can only be interpreted correctly after they have taken place. This is analogous to how, once each character's story is done, we can see how they were predicted right from the start, from their earliest traumas. Every character creates tools and weapons to protect themselves out of whatever small protections they were given as children. The success or failures of Dany, Jaime, Jon and the rest to break out of their own suffering and stop the cycle were limited or helped by the support or opposition others made to them, and how it interacted with their trauma.

His story is not blatantly obvious in what it's about because in real life, people's traumas, their coping mechanisms and the way they hurt others are not blatantly obvious.

  • The story of the white walkers is this story. The children of the forest, lacking help or protection from anyone else, created a terrible weapon to defend themselves from men. But this weapon eventually ended up destroying themselves and those around them. In trying to defeat it, they ended up sharing their trauma again and again, eventually ending with Bran, who was able to finally end the cycle. But only because he had support and love from his family. The white walkers embody the theme which each character story contains.
  • Daenerys' attempts to break the cycle of abuse were doomed to fail, because she never properly healed from her own trauma. The death of her brother made her view violence as protective. The only man she trusted hurt her but protected her, with violence. Despite knowing "better", violence felt protective to her, and whenever she used it, she was trying to heal herself. But this was a self-destructive act. The harder she tried to heal, the more she hurt those around her. She never trusted and loved enough anyone who could have given her instruction on how to pull herself out of this. Despite so many advisers speaking of diplomacy, Dany trusted none of them. Here's her entry demonstrating this: Daenerys
  • Jaime and Cersei's joint trauma was the terrible secret they carried from the world, and each had to protect the other from being discovered. His father offered him no emotional protection of any kind, and he could not confide in Tyrion. His father also led to him keeping a terrible secret from Tyrion as well. Cersei was the only source of emotional protection from shame, symbolised by his public shame for kingslaying even though he did the right thing. Despite trying harder than most other characters to redeem himself, nothing and no-one ever gave him protection from his trauma of shame besides Cersei, and in the end, he couldn't overcome the need for it: Jaime
  • Jon's trauma was abandonment. From his mother, from his family, from Winterfell, from the Wall when he was captured by wildlings. But unlike Dany, he had a solid foundation of emotional protection that Ned had given him, and other characters also supplemented. Jon wasn't a "better" person than Dany at all. They were equally noble. Equally entitled to the throne. Equally desiring a better world than the one they had been born into. He made opposing choices because his life experiences were so different from hers, and he was enabled by those that loved him to make the choice to break the cycle by killing Dany. Jon
  • Theon's trauma was a fear of not truly being loved, because he didn't "belong". His quarrels with whores were sparked by this fear of love that was falsely given. His failure to resist his father's demands to turn on the Starks are due to his fear being inherent in the "iron price"; if you paid for something, it didn't belong to you. Only what you took belonged to you. His arc of betrayal and redemption was deeper, then higher, to emphasise how turning away from the love of his "true" family, and then returning to it, were the underlying causes of his choices and fate. If he had not been loved by the Starks, he could not have been redeemed. Theon
  • Arya's trauma was not only the death of her father, but the fear that she would be "crushed" by the restrictions of the world once she left the protection of childhood, where she was indulged to run wild. Arya was one of the few characters who never particularly wanted protection, but she often was given it anyway, and didn't refuse it because it could lead to her fear of having to grow up. As she was exposed to the true horrors of the world, she fell deeper and deeper into the hatred and rage that had been fueling her since early childhood. When Sandor protected her, he finally gave her an understanding of the tools she needed to protect herself from her own rage, which even her family had not been able to provide. Her parents hadn't needed them, so why would they have them? Arya's ability to not fall completely to her dark nature was thus enabled by protection and love from others, not solely her own will: Arya
  • And Sandor, who obviously I have written the most in-depth post on, because he was the story I first discovered this theme in, was one of the few characters who managed to redeem himself (and he DID redeem himself) without being given any love by others. Lacking protection from his own family, forced to cling to the Lannisters for protection from death, and never supported to keep alive his desire to help the world, he devised his own protection in the form of the Hound. This was ultimately his downfall, as he inadvertently spread the trauma of the Hound onto Sansa, who "wears his skin" at the end of her arc. She hides away from the world. He goes to his death upon realising this truth, but his actions actually allowed the two Stark sisters to see and love each other in the way they hadn't as children, and this was his redemption.

Lots of other characters have entries in my larger topic post, and I am trying to add more and refine them, but I'm not familiar enough with them all.

And the ending? The major families of Westeros are extinguished or will not be given new children. Their cycles of trauma and abuse are over. New families are taking the reigns of the realm. Every character who lives in the end, while grievously damaged, is self-aware of this damage and how it hurts others. They will stop themselves from spreading it further.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am really amazed by your effort to make any sense or meaning of this mess. To my opinion it doesn’t worth the time and the overthinking.

Once most viewers detach themselves from the characters, are probably going to laugh their heart out with the stupidity, the plot armos, the underlying mentality of the show. 

But really I admire your effort. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every decision was made according to a uniform rule: does it make D&D go "wowee." If not, it's not in the show . 

Unless they were bored or lazy or distracted or wanted to shove some point into the show. For instance, that brown women are hot or dicks are funny. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I'm sorry but all your effort is wasted. Fantastic effort though it was. 

It is wasted because you have applied intelligence to understanding the writing of D&D, who put less intelligence into writing it. To decode the intricacies behind a genius message, the message first has to come from a genius. And D&D are no geniuses

Edited by Pauld123

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Daeny targeting innocent civilians was garbage because of how they established her character through the 7 and a half seasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does not make sense. This was not a story about symbolism, it was story build from each character perspective. The creator of this story said he don`t want heroes or villains, his characters react same as a real person. In the end he changed it to symbolism and forgot to deliver each character perspective.

Seems the Night King won after all. Martin wasted 10 years and in the end wiped whole universe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the words of Benioff and Weiss: "Themes are for eighth-grade book reports ".

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arya doesn't know how to sail!! She's on a suicide mission like Elissa Farman.

The very idea she would want to go west after trying all along to get home to her family is baffling. Insane,

I can only assume GRRM intends for her to be completely broken by the time she goes and its a more Lord of the Rings ending where she can't really live anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Arya doesn't know how to sail!! She's on a suicide mission like Elissa Farman.

The very idea she would want to go west after trying all along to get home to her family is baffling. Insane,

I can only assume GRRM intends for her to be completely broken by the time she goes and its a more Lord of the Rings ending where she can't really live anymore.

Elissa didn't go on a suicide mission though. 

She left Westeros of her own will and purposefully found a crew to discover what was left of Westeros, which is what Arya did. She wasn't on the boat by herself trying to sail not knowing how. 

 

Corlys Velaryon eventually saw Elissa's boat in Essos so she didn't die. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, ARYa_Nym said:

Elissa didn't go on a suicide mission though. 

She left Westeros of her own will and purposefully found a crew to discover what was left of Westeros, which is what Arya did. She wasn't on the boat by herself trying to sail not knowing how. 

 

Corlys Velaryon eventually saw Elissa's boat in Essos so she didn't die. 

 

 

No, Elissa thought she could do it. Arya clearly has no experience to do so.

Corlys had never seen Sun Chaser. His word is about as useful as an Elvis sighting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

No, Elissa thought she could do it. Arya clearly has no experience to do so.

Corlys had never seen Sun Chaser. His word is about as useful as an Elvis sighting

Elissa had a crew. So she wasn't the one doing the work. It's not difficult to learn how to sail anyway.

Quote

In Oldtown in 56 AC, Elissa searched for a crew for her ship for her voyage across the Sunset Sea, as she had believed since childhood that undiscovered lands existed west of Westeros. Words of her efforts reached Lord Donnel Hightower, and his grandsons, Ser Eustace and Ser Norman, pledged their ships, Lady Meredith and Autumn Moon, to her voyage. King Jaehaerys ordered Donnel to take Elissa into custody, but Elissa's three swift ships evaded the twelve pursuers sent by Lord Hightower.[7]

In the last scene, there were several people with Arya maintaining the boat. 

Corlys said he saw Sun Chaser in Asshai. 

Edited by ARYa_Nym

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ARYa_Nym said:

Elissa had a crew. So she wasn't the one doing the work. It's not difficult to learn how to sail anyway.

In the last scene, there were several people with Arya maintaining the boat. 

Corlys said he saw Sun Chaser in Asshai. 

Corlys' story reminds me of these

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Earhart#Myths,_legends,_and_claims

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

I don't see the similarities. 

 

This seems more on the lines of having some character give a throwaway line that let's you know how a storyline ended up. 

 

Either way it's not suicide since she was never confirmed to be dead. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, ARYa_Nym said:

I don't see the similarities. 

 

This seems more on the lines of having some character give a throwaway line that let's you know how a storyline ended up. 

 

Either way it's not suicide since she was never confirmed to be dead. 

Woman goes on a mission to cross the uncross-able. Never been done before. Disappears in the attempt. Years later people start making up myths and legends about what happened to her. That is what Corlys is doing, he was 4 when Elissa disappeared. He has never seen her boat. He sees what he wants to see, creates a myth around her survival

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Woman goes on a mission to cross the uncross-able. Never been done before. Disappears in the attempt. Years later people start making up myths and legends about what happened to her. That is what Corlys is doing, he was 6 when Elissa disappeared. He has never seen her boat. He sees what he wants to see, creates a myth around her survival

But that's not true that it's never been done before. GRRM's world does have a precedent with Elissa.

 

Euron is also said to have traveled all over. 

 

There were no legends like Amelia or search crews. Just one person said he saw her boat years later while on his own voyage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, ARYa_Nym said:

But that's not true that it's never been done before. GRRM's world does have a precedent with Elissa.

 

Euron is also said to have traveled all over. 

 

There were no legends like Amelia or search crews. Just one person said he saw her boat years later while on his own voyage. 

George told us

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1122/

Hence Corlys is not accurate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, tallTale said:

Daeny targeting innocent civilians was garbage because of how they established her character through the 7 and a half seasons.

Even D&D know this. They had Tyrion lay out Dany's progression of ruthlessness, then leaped over to killing everyone because she's pathologically sure of herself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×