Ned/Jon

[darmody]

The dramatic pivot point, in an episode with remarkably little drama, was when Jon was apparently swayed toward killing Dany by Tyrion's appeal to the safety of Sansa and Arya. Which is exactly how the Spider swayed Ned to confess his fake crimes to Joffrey. Same two people, who happened to be in King's Landing at the time. 

[chasing the dragons]

I would've preferred if the Jon killing Dany scene had played out in a "man who delivers the verdict must swing the sword"type of way. Jon doesn't need swaying by Tyrion, he knows what must be done, he won't allow Arya to assassinate her. He accepts his fate, kills Dany then is killed by Grey Worm. 

 

[Kajjo]

2 minutes ago, chasing the dragons said:

Jon doesn't need swaying by Tyrion, he knows what must be done, he won't allow Arya to assassinate her. He accepts his fate, kills Dany then is killed by Grey Worm. 

I'd like that, too. I expected Jon to die. But I admit that Jon in the North with Tormund and Ghost is a fine ending, too. Fits the character arc.

[Lord Varys]

That seems to have been cheap cop-out on the part of the hacks, considering that nobody ever threatened the lives of Dany and Arya, no?

Just now, Kajjo said:

I'd like that, too. I expected Jon to die. But I admit that Jon in the North with Tormund and Ghost is a fine ending, too. Fits the character arc.

If you mean his character arc was getting fucked then, yeah.

[Kajjo]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you mean his character arc was getting fucked then, yeah.

Well, I would've phrase it differently, but yes, Jon is very ambivalent, a loser to start with. Bastard, Night's watch because of hopelessness, gets murdered by his Night's Watch comrades, survives the battle of the bastards only because of Sansa's Vale Knights. Jon is a very grey-nuanced guy here, not the ultimate hero. I like that quite a lot.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, I would've phrase it differently, but yes, Jon is very ambivalent, a loser to start with. Bastard, Night's watch because of hopelessness, gets murdered by his Night's Watch comrades, survives the battle of the bastards only because of Sansa's Vale Knights. Jon is a very grey-nuanced guy here, not the ultimate hero. I like that quite a lot.

Oh, I'm sure he is going to be fucked in the books, too. George killed him there, which makes it not very likely he'll get any sort of good ending. But having him end up at a place where he already was in season 1 - which now literally follows no proper purpose - means he is well and truly fucked not just on a personal level but also in the way he was written.

Death would actually have been kinder than that.

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

means he is well and truly fucked not just on a personal level but also in the way he was written.

Well, yes, he is sort of an loser in a way. From young bastard to his end. 

Hopefully, he finds a good life with Tormund and Ghost and maybe a nice woman. A simply mediocre life might be fitting.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Kajjo said:

Well, yes, he is sort of an loser in a way. From young bastard to his end. 

Hopefully, he finds a good life with Tormund and Ghost and maybe a nice woman. A simply mediocre life might be fitting.

There is no indication that he is abandoning his post again. As I see it, he just escorted the wildlings back beyond the Wall, to the shitty place they apparently belong. There is no indication he is going to live with them, is there?

But in the end, who cares?

[Kajjo]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication he is going to live with them, is there?

I don't know. It is an open end, but he might decide to, after all. Once skipping this honor nonsense and reuniting with Tormund. I believe so. 

I interpret the closing gate as to "Jon decides to join Tormund". Side by side. No indication he rides back.

Tormund surely could have led his own people without Jon.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that he is abandoning his post again. As I see it, he just escorted the wildlings back beyond the Wall, to the shitty place they apparently belong. There is no indication he is going to live with them, is there?

But in the end, who cares?

Exactly I keep reading people think he left the Night's Watch. I didnt get that impression. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Exactly I keep reading people think he left the Night's Watch. I didnt get that impression. 

At least we can say that if they had wanted to send the message Jon was to settle down beyond the Wall they should have actually sent that message in a concrete way.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

At least we can say that if they had wanted to send the message Jon was to settle down beyond the Wall they should have actually sent that message in a concrete way.

I know he only invited Arya. I feel like Jon plans to keep in contact with Sansa and Bran staying in Castle Black is the best way for him to do that. Unless he is pardoned by his siblings he would be a fugitive. 

[Quillon]

Its a shitty ending, he isn't supposed to marry & father children; did he forsake his honor by joining with wildlings? or is he just escorting them? And in the show's context he wouldn't forsake his honor for just himself so...

I don't see this happening in the books at all tho. Wildlings wouldn't return beyond the wall, they've been trying to get to the south for thousands of years, now there is no Wall nor NW nor enmity with the North to stop them, they'd just settle where ever WWs wiped people out.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

6 minutes ago, Quillon said:

Its a shitty ending, he isn't supposed to marry & father children; did he forsake his honor by joining with wildlings? or is he just escorting them? And in the show's context he wouldn't forsake his honor for just himself so...

I don't see this happening in the books at all tho. Wildlings wouldn't return beyond the wall, they've been trying to get to the south for thousands of years, now there is no Wall nor NK nor enmity with the North to stop them, they'd just settle where ever WWs wiped people out.

I got the impression he will end up training the men Tyrion and Sansa send to the wall because there must always be a place for bastards and broken men. That's the purpose of the new Night's Watch. 

[Nerevanin]

1 hour ago, chasing the dragons said:

I would've preferred if the Jon killing Dany scene had played out in a "man who delivers the verdict must swing the sword"type of way. Jon doesn't need swaying by Tyrion, he knows what must be done, he won't allow Arya to assassinate her. He accepts his fate, kills Dany then is killed by Grey Worm. 

 

I'd prefer it to be a little different. He goes to Dany, kills GW on the way, confronts Dany, Dany does the little monologue, Jon kills her, Drogon kills Jon too and flies off with Dany's body.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that he is abandoning his post again. As I see it, he just escorted the wildlings back beyond the Wall, to the shitty place they apparently belong. There is no indication he is going to live with them, is there?

But in the end, who cares?

There is no way to tell if he leaves the NW or not but I eventually came to the conclusion that he leaves them and joins the wildlings. He is the only NW man to go with them, there is the closing gate and in the final scene Jon disappears deep in the forest, as a hint that he's lost for the realm south of the Wall, never to be seen again. Just my interpretation of course, there's no sure way to tell.

[Quillon]

29 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I got the impression he will end up training the men Tyrion and Sansa send to the wall because there must always be a place for bastards and broken men. That's the purpose of the new Night's Watch. 

That's another thing(what's the point of NW now, yo?), I'm talking about Jon's going beyond the wall with wildlings.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

2 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

I'd prefer it to be a little different. He goes to Dany, kills GW on the way, confronts Dany, Dany does the little monologue, Jon kills her, Drogon kills Jon too and flies off with Dany's body.

 

There is no way to tell if he leaves the NW or not but I eventually came to the conclusion that he leaves them and joins the wildlings. He is the only NW man to go with them, there is the closing gate and in the final scene Jon disappears deep in the forest, as a hint that he's lost for the realm south of the Wall, never to be seen again. Just my interpretation of course, there's no sure way to tell.

I also think he is heading off with the wildlings, never to be seen again in the 6K/North - a 'ghost' if you will. I would like to think he will be happy, but he sure did have a shit outing. Drogon should have killed jon for sure. GW should have confronted him and attempted to kill him. I would have liked to see jon the bad ass and kill GW, but that would have left a problem with the US/Dothraki and further crapped on dany legacy 'freeing slaves.

Also I would have thought the lords etc would have been grateful for him killing a tyrant....

[Chris is my name]

4 hours ago, darmody said:

The dramatic pivot point, in an episode with remarkably little drama, was when Jon was apparently swayed toward killing Dany by Tyrion's appeal to the safety of Sansa and Arya. Which is exactly how the Spider swayed Ned to confess his fake crimes to Joffrey. Same two people, who happened to be in King's Landing at the time. 

This is one (of the MANY) problems with D & D; and let's just limit ourselves to this season: they got pathologically obsessed with "callbacks" and easter eggs that they built their entire [withholds gag] story [clears throat] around trying to show how clever they are.

Did they actually think we'd be so impressed with the echos of a time when the show was good that we wouldn't notice that what is on the screen made absolutely no sense?

[lakin1013]

33 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I got the impression he will end up training the men Tyrion and Sansa send to the wall because there must always be a place for bastards and broken men. That's the purpose of the new Night's Watch. 

Except the other overtly broken man is now king.  Just seems that Jon paid a heavy price for doing the right thing.

I have no issue with Jon becoming Mance 2.0, but I would have preferred it be his choice.   Show Jon displayed zero interest in ruling.  He seemed happiest to me in the far north but he is going there under punishment and exile.  I do not like that.  BTW, is Jon Lightbringer?

[divica]

43 minutes ago, Quillon said:

Its a shitty ending, he isn't supposed to marry & father children; did he forsake his honor by joining with wildlings? or is he just escorting them? And in the show's context he wouldn't forsake his honor for just himself so...

I don't see this happening in the books at all tho. Wildlings wouldn't return beyond the wall, they've been trying to get to the south for thousands of years, now there is no Wall nor NW nor enmity with the North to stop them, they'd just settle where ever WWs wiped people out.

Exactly! This ending with the wildlings going north of the Wall makes no sense… They have karhold, the gift and the castles on the Wall. There is no reason for them to go back north given all the death in the north…

And the northern Independence would make much more sense if the north would have a lot of wildlings, clansmen, skagosi and iron born (those that decided to stay in the north in adwd instead of going to the IL). It would make sense that these groups of people wouldn t want to bend the knee to the IT.