Do you feel this show had any negative effect on how you view the books?

[BalerionTheCat]

I believe D&D made quite a few changes. Not for the best IMO. I don't believe GRRM will make the same mistakes. So the show doesn't impair in any way my view of the (yet to come) books.

But even if badly told, the show went about where I expected the books to go. So I'm even more eagerly expecting the last 2 books. The story told exactly as GRRM intends it. Or if he can't finish it, at least he (or someone else) tells us what were the objectives, the purpose of the story. Because I don't believe GRRM is telling just a little story without claims.

A few things I believe will be different. The Long Night will happen. The Others will reach south, at least KL. They come for a purpose, are not just a mindless calamity like a disease. As in the Yi Ti legend, they come to punish the sins of men. They will not be defeated in a big battle (that would justify violence). They will leave only after inflicting the intended punishment. The 7K will be utterly destroyed. Westeros will return to the Old Gods and their weirwoods. Bran will not be a king, but a greenseer. He will stay in the cave, for centuries or millennia. Not in the flesh, but living in the weirwoods, like the other greenseers of the cave. Jon will live with the Free Folk. All Westeros will be more or less like the North of Ned Stark was. More tribes and clans than large kingdoms. He will not be a king, but something between Ned Stark, Mance and the LC of the NW. Bran and he will work to keep peace and avoid large conflicts.

[Angel Eyes]

Here’s my bit: since Ramsay took Harry Hardyng’s place as the man betrothed to Sansa, that doesn’t look very good for her...

[Miss_Saffron]

On 7/12/2020 at 10:48 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

I believe D&D made quite a few changes. Not for the best IMO. I don't believe GRRM will make the same mistakes. So the show doesn't impair in any way my view of the (yet to come) books.

But even if badly told, the show went about where I expected the books to go. So I'm even more eagerly expecting the last 2 books. The story told exactly as GRRM intends it. Or if he can't finish it, at least he (or someone else) tells us what were the objectives, the purpose of the story. Because I don't believe GRRM is telling just a little story without claims.

A few things I believe will be different. The Long Night will happen. The Others will reach south, at least KL.

Here's where I agree completely.

On 7/12/2020 at 10:48 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

As in the Yi Ti legend, they come to punish the sins of men. They will not be defeated in a big battle (that would justify violence). They will leave only after inflicting the intended punishment. The 7K will be utterly destroyed. Westeros will return to the Old Gods and their weirwoods. Bran will not be a king, but a greenseer. He will stay in the cave, for centuries or millennia. Not in the flesh, but living in the weirwoods, like the other greenseers of the cave. Jon will live with the Free Folk. All Westeros will be more or less like the North of Ned Stark was. More tribes and clans than large kingdoms. He will not be a king, but something between Ned Stark, Mance and the LC of the NW. Bran and he will work to keep peace and avoid large conflicts.

And here's where I disagree (apart from the bit about Jon leaving with the FF).

Still, I'm very eager to see how the things will happen in the books. Before the finale of season 8, and if I'm being honest, before I saw season 6, I was pretty ok with just following the show and not bothering with the books, because Martin's tendency to branch out his plots sideways instead of pushing them forward made the books a bit of a slog for me. Cleverly crafted slog, but slog nonetheless. I was ok with getting a slimed down version, even if I would never know what happened to Jeyne Poole, Edric Storm or all the people in Essos. But I didn't get a slimmed down version, I've got cliff notes and now I want the entire thing.

Also, I'm pretty sure that even if Martin doesn't manage to see this story to the end personally, it will get a Wheel of Time treatment and another writer will be chosen to step up to the task. And, as long as they'd be more competent than D&D, I wouldn't complain too much.

On 7/12/2020 at 3:31 PM, Angel Eyes said:

since Ramsay took Harry Hardyng’s place as the man betrothed to Sansa, that doesn’t look very good for her...

I don't know. I think Sansa/Harry and Ramsay/Jeyne plots were conflated into one not because Sansa will suffer similar fate in the books, but because it saved a ton of screen time and the necessity to introduce new characters. Jayne was cut out from the GoT from the first season and bringing her up now would make no sense. The only aspect from the TV show version of Sansa's fate that I think might be reflection of her fate in the books is Littlefinger's betrayal. She might be a stand-in for Cat for him, but she's still his pawn first and foremost and he will throw her under the bus to further his agenda without batting an eye. 

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

before I saw season 6, I was pretty ok with just following the show and not bothering with the books

The NK, season 4, was when I decided I was not watching an adaptation of ASoIaF anymore, but some fan fiction by D&D. Which was OK, at least the books would not be spoiled.

But there were still plenty of scenes, spot on what was ASoIaF for me. If only one, the last meeting between Jon and Mance in season 5. What a king should be.

On 7/12/2020 at 3:31 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Here’s my bit: since Ramsay took Harry Hardyng’s place as the man betrothed to Sansa, that doesn’t look very good for her...

Yet. I saw it too. In both cases, it's LF scheme. But I don't think the book one will go to that. There are also speculations about Harry dying during the tourney. If only because it was the case of Lord Ashford's daughter's champions during her tourney. Humfrey Harding died at this tourney. IdK.

[GoldenGail3]

Well I hope Bran doesn’t become King, that Brienne doesn’t kill Stannis, that Stannis don’t burn Shireen. I hope a lot of things the tv does don’t happen In the books.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

On 7/15/2020 at 6:51 PM, GoldenGail3 said:

Well I hope Bran doesn’t become King, that Brienne doesn’t kill Stannis, that Stannis don’t burn Shireen. I hope a lot of things the tv does don’t happen In the books.

Well half of that shit clearly isn't going to happen. There is no geographic way in which Brienne could kill Stannis, and there is no way Stannis will burn Shireen, though Mel probably will. As for Bran, given that R+L=J is a thing, and GRRM isn't going to do that if it won't matter, unlike some other "creative minds" that came up with X Men Origins, I think he will be king in the end, but instead of a King like every other one before him, he will be a constitutional monarch with a Parliament.

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well half of that shit clearly isn't going to happen. There is no geographic way in which Brienne could kill Stannis, and there is no way Stannis will burn Shireen, though Mel probably will. As for Bran, given that R+L=J is a thing, and GRRM isn't going to do that if it won't matter, unlike some other "creative minds" that came up with X Men Origins, I think he will be king in the end, but instead of a King like every other one before him, he will be a constitutional monarch with a Parliament.

My best guess is that Melisandre will burn Shireen as part of a ritual to revive Jon Snow.  I think she and Jon may be lovers, for a time.

[21st Century Moose]

The broad outline will be the same, but some specifics will differ. It's clear now that dealing with Cersei is the "Scouring of the Shire" part, whereas the endings for Arya, Jon, etc are the "Grey Havens" part. Dany will go insane and burn Kings Landing, but will she need to be killed? I don't know but I believe GRRM has a trick or two up his sleeve here, and the House with the Red Door will undoubtedly play a part. On the other hand the Wall will be breached, probably a corrupted/enslaved dragon, the Others will invade the lands to the south, the decisive battle will be at Winterfell, and Dany and her dragons will be there for it - I don't for one minute believe any of that will be different in the books. 

[Angel Eyes]

15 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well half of that shit clearly isn't going to happen. There is no geographic way in which Brienne could kill Stannis, and there is no way Stannis will burn Shireen, though Mel probably will. As for Bran, given that R+L=J is a thing, and GRRM isn't going to do that if it won't matter, unlike some other "creative minds" that came up with X Men Origins, I think he will be king in the end, but instead of a King like every other one before him, he will be a constitutional monarch with a Parliament.

Hi Tom! (Deadpool reference)

[Rose of Red Lake]

11 hours ago, 21st Century Moose said:

The broad outline will be the same, but some specifics will differ. It's clear now that dealing with Cersei is the "Scouring of the Shire" part, whereas the endings for Arya, Jon, etc are the "Grey Havens" part.

Yesss to the Scouring (I realized where this was going, about the time S7 aired).

The Gray Havens thing hit a sour note with some fans. One fan described Jon returning the Night's Watch was like "Harry Potter going back into the cupboard." There was also a reputable poll of audience members and of those who were dissatisfied with the show , a majority said it was because of Jon's ending. However, a majority were still satisfied with the show (x).

I liked the show as a useful device for providing clarity about plots and modifying expectations. I didn't like the costumes or the frat boy writing or the racist mhysa scenes. I can see themes in the story matching themes in the show.

[BalerionTheCat]

Hum, if there is a scouring, I would rather see something lesser and closer to home. Like dealing with Rasmey or the Karstarks.

I believe KL and Cersei are part of the main deal. I don't think Cersei and Dany will not face each other at some point. The Others, the Long Night, must destroy KL. Or all these pages building KL as a cesspool, a nest of plotters, would be just be a waste.

[Rose of Red Lake]

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I believe KL and Cersei are part of the main deal. I don't think Cersei and Dany will not face each other at some point. The Others, the Long Night, must destroy KL. Or all these pages building KL as a cesspool, a nest of plotters, would be just be a waste.

But they're also ignoring Daenerys. This was hinted at early on in S2 in a Tyrion/Varys convo and in the last episode GRRM wrote. He writes Joffrey as worried about Dany, but Joff is dismissed by Tywin. If KL gets destroyed by Fire instead of Ice, does it doesn't really matter? Consequences are still there for ignoring the threats.

[BalerionTheCat]

22 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But they're also ignoring Daenerys.

Indeed. IMO, if Tywin was dismissing Dany's threat, there a good chance it's a misjudgment. KL will burn for sure. Aerys nearly did it. Either wildfire or dragon, but someone will be the queen of ashes.

But it doesn't mean the Others should not also come to deal with those still there, sitting on the throne. I hope the Others will "pass the sentence and swing the sword".

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But it doesn't mean the Others should not also come to deal with those still there, sitting on the throne. I hope the Others will "pass the sentence and swing the sword".

I dont think justice will work itself out that cleanly. Dany didnt get to kill Robert or Cersei. Arya doesn't have a chance to kill Joffrey. Cersei didnt get killed by a zombie. Just got killed by some bricks. I thought it was hilarious and very GRRM.

Maybe I just see the story differently but I really enjoy the anti-climatic moves because it undercuts the "big confrontations" we're primed to expect. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Oh and Cersei's death still fits the valonqar prophecy - if she suffocates from Maegor's Holdfast falling on her, Maegor is the valonqar - Aenys' little brother.

[BalerionTheCat]

19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont think justice will work itself out that cleanly.

Cersei killed by a brick, while she was believing Tyrion was the valonqar is ironic indeed. But disappointing. Maggy prophecy was accurate in everything else. IMO the valonqar must be one of her brothers. Extending to anyone younger brother or sister is ridiculous. That is at least 2/3 of Westeros or even Essos. If only because Tyrion is the obvious choice, it should be Jaime. Additionally, because Maggy used the word valonqar, someone should be Aerys'bastard. Whether it is Tyrion or Jaime and Cersei, only Jaime is her true brother. Jaime and Cersei work best because it is then "all in the family".

Concerning Justice, "who swings the sword", I believe, for many significant cases, the one doing it is the true wronged one. Tyrion may want to kill Cersei, but the fault is Tywin's. Because Tywin did everything to humiliate Tyrion. And let Cersei do the same. It's not the way a father should raise his children. The one who most "deserve" to kill Cersei is Jaime, not Tyrion, not Arya. Because she ruined his life, scheming to send him in the KG, seducing him.

Arya may want to kill Cersei too. But the Lannisters only played their part of the GoT game. Ned was betrayed by LF. I suspect it's LF who told Joffrey to be "fair but uncompromising" and is Ned's "true murderer". Sansa was as much as Arya the victim of LF. So it was very fitting they were both executioners. It was the Frey's choice to betray Robb and Cat. Tywin offered them an opportunity, but it was their decision.  So LSH or Arya, the Freys have their executionners.

The Blackfyre is book only. But Varys is probably to blame for preventing Rhaegar to depose his father and for plunging the kingdom into chaos. If the rebellion is based on a lie, it's probably Varys'. Varys was the doom of the Targaryens. And so, Dany was the most fitting to sentence him to death.

In many cases, I believe the justice is passed by the ones most deserving it.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Cersei killed by a brick, while she was believing Tyrion was the valonqar is ironic indeed. But disappointing. Maggy prophecy was accurate in everything else. IMO the valonqar must be one of her brothers. Extending to anyone younger brother or sister is ridiculous. That is at least 2/3 of Westeros or even Essos. If only because Tyrion is the obvious choice, it should be Jaime. Additionally, because Maggy used the word valonqar, someone should be Aerys'bastard. Whether it is Tyrion or Jaime and Cersei, only Jaime is her true brother. Jaime and Cersei work best because it is then "all in the family".

Concerning Justice, "who swings the sword", I believe, for many significant cases, the one doing it is the true wronged one. Tyrion may want to kill Cersei, but the fault is Tywin's. Because Tywin did everything to humiliate Tyrion. And let Cersei do the same. It's not the way a father should raise his children. The one who most "deserve" to kill Cersei is Jaime, not Tyrion, not Arya. Because she ruined his life, scheming to send him in the KG, seducing him.

Arya may want to kill Cersei too. But the Lannisters only played their part of the GoT game. Ned was betrayed by LF. I suspect it's LF who told Joffrey to be "fair but uncompromising" and is Ned's "true murderer". Sansa was as much as Arya the victim of LF. So it was very fitting they were both executioners. It was the Frey's choice to betray Robb and Cat. Tywin offered them an opportunity, but it was their decision.  So LSH or Arya, the Freys have their executionners.

The Blackfyre is book only. But Varys is probably to blame for preventing Rhaegar to depose his father and for plunging the kingdom into chaos. If the rebellion is based on a lie, it's probably Varys'. Varys was the doom of the Targaryens. And so, Dany was the most fitting to sentence him to death.

In many cases, I believe the justice is passed by the ones most deserving it.

So why wasn’t Sansa the one to kill Littlefinger? She suffered more than Arya at Littlefinger’s hands, he didn’t sell Arya off to a husband who raped her. And it’s not about practice since Arya isn’t much more practiced with slitting a throat than Sansa is (two kills, most of her are by poison or stabbing).

[GoldenGail3]

On 7/17/2020 at 3:12 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well half of that shit clearly isn't going to happen. There is no geographic way in which Brienne could kill Stannis, and there is no way Stannis will burn Shireen, though Mel probably will. As for Bran, given that R+L=J is a thing, and GRRM isn't going to do that if it won't matter, unlike some other "creative minds" that came up with X Men Origins, I think he will be king in the end, but instead of a King like every other one before him, he will be a constitutional monarch with a Parliament.

Bran being king in the books makes no sense though.  In the books people don’t even know that he’s still alive though..

[BalerionTheCat]

14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So why wasn’t Sansa the one to kill Littlefinger? She suffered more than Arya at Littlefinger’s hands, he didn’t sell Arya off to a husband who raped her. And it’s not about practice since Arya isn’t much more practiced with slitting a throat than Sansa is (two kills, most of her are by poison or stabbing).

Book or show I don't remember Sansa killing someone by her hand. Arya, it's different. Sword most of the time. Sansa and Ramsay is show only. Harry, we'll see what happen.  And again, it's not one more than the other. In fact, it's all the Starks. Bran and Rickon too.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Cersei killed by a brick, while she was believing Tyrion was the valonqar is ironic indeed. But disappointing. Maggy prophecy was accurate in everything else. IMO the valonqar must be one of her brothers. Extending to anyone younger brother or sister is ridiculous. That is at least 2/3 of Westeros or even Essos. If only because Tyrion is the obvious choice, it should be Jaime. Additionally, because Maggy used the word valonqar, someone should be Aerys'bastard. Whether it is Tyrion or Jaime and Cersei, only Jaime is her true brother. Jaime and Cersei work best because it is then "all in the family".

I think prophecies should avoid being too on the nose and also too easy to guess. If it's Jaime who kills her it's still too on the nose and a vast majority of readers would be right and what's the result? You aren't surprised. I was surprised and I wasn't mad that my theories were wrong. And there's still some debate who the Younger, More Beautiful Queen was.

I think for "valonqar" to be that specific, Maggy would need to say "your valonqar." The little brother of Aenys, and his HOLD fast ("the valonqar shall wrap his hands...") fits. So I can see GRRM using some flowery metaphorical language to describe the castle strangling her.

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The one who most "deserve" to kill Cersei is Jaime, not Tyrion, not Arya. Because she ruined his life, scheming to send him in the KG, seducing him.

What? Jaime made those choices! He went into that, eyes wide open.

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

In many cases, I believe the justice is passed by the ones most deserving it.

Justice is not that clear cut in the story, ever? You are supposed to ask questions and be confused about it, because most of the time humans are confused themselves. Varys was trying to save King's Landing from her but he was also trying to poison her. Tyrion killed Tywin while Shae gets none from him. Justice slides into vengeance with the Brotherhood. The Martells got nothing to show for it. Robb dies trying to deliver it. So no, justice is not passed that neatly.