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Do you feel this show had any negative effect on how you view the books?

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57 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

To be perfectly honest if it seems to me that Season 7 and 3 episodes of season 8 will probably be the winds of winter. Which means these dunderheads covered a dream of spring, an entire novel in 3 episodes. I am pretty sure with 3000 pages of material Martin could make it believable. If anything, this disastrous ending will increase book sales as people would want to see how it happened his way. 

 

I think ADOS is season 7 and 8.

Winds covers Dany and the dothrkai, Battle of Mereen, Stannis, Jon resurrection and possibly retake North. Sansa in the Vale.

Honestly I don’t know how he intends to do it in two books. We’re incredibly far from the endgame and I would have thought he would need at least a whole novel for the endgame. 

I don’t know how he intends to sell the Jon/Dany love story in one novel.

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33 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I think ADOS is season 7 and 8.

Winds covers Dany and the dothrkai, Battle of Mereen, Stannis, Jon resurrection and possibly retake North. Sansa in the Vale.

Honestly I don’t know how he intends to do it in two books. We’re incredibly far from the endgame and I would have thought he would need at least a whole novel for the endgame. 

I don’t know how he intends to sell the Jon/Dany love story in one novel.

I agree.  Unless Winds progresses much faster than I think it will, like Dany will get to Westeros in the middle of the book not the end, I don't see how he can possibly wrap it up in 2 books, unless he does some kind of time jump, because I stick with my belief that Bran as an elected king will have to be 15 for it to be taken seriously.  If there are only two novels that would also mean that we'd have Jon and Dany falling in love, if they do, AND Dany going off the deep end all in the same novel, which seems also too fast to me, even assuming it will be 500% better than the hack job the show did.

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3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree.  Unless Winds progresses much faster than I think it will, like Dany will get to Westeros in the middle of the book not the end, I don't see how he can possibly wrap it up in 2 books, unless he does some kind of time jump, because I stick with my belief that Bran as an elected king will have to be 15 for it to be taken seriously.  If there are only two novels that would also mean that we'd have Jon and Dany falling in love, if they do, AND Dany going off the deep end all in the same novel, which seems also too fast to me, even assuming it will be 500% better than the hack job the show did.

 

Not to mention the size of the dragons and major plot beats like Jon getting to ride one. 

Having read Memory of Light, I don’t see any reason that it wouldn’t or shouldn’t take a similar amount of work to do the Others invasion. Never mind Danys invasion. He has spent thousands of pages of tension to build them as this grand threat to all life. It would be beyond anti climactic for it to come down to one battle in one small location before they even achieve anything.

I mean honestly, I would have considered it reasonable for almost everyone in the North and riverlands to die as a result of this. At least. Anything less would not sell the threat and stakes involved.

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The last book is never coming anyway. So whatever we get with Winds is the last book we get from GRRM. Another 10 years for a dream of spring. Chances of that are not good. Maybe Joe Abercrombie or Brandon Sanderson can take on the project from there. 

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On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 10:17 AM, Ruki88 said:

I don't think in mad Dany but dark Dany, definitely. Dark Dany that might imply a mad Dany in the future (kind of like her father). She just won't have the time to get there since she'll probably die before she goes mad.

I never believed the Mad Queen theories because it felt too repetitive and too much like a greek tragedy. My reasons for wishing this won't come true in the book are :

There's already a mad Queen, Cersei.

The fact that one cannot escape genetic destiny or family legacy. Daenerys, mad as her brother and father, it's too much for my liking.

Repetitive history. In Westeros, women who desire power for themselves are always regarded evil and unworthy of the crown. Visenya, may not have wanted the throne, but was regarded as spellcaster who dealt in blood and magic, and as a kinslayer. Rhaenyra, denied of her crown because of her sex, and vilified ever after as the sole responsible for the Dance of Dragons and death of so many Targaryens. And Danerys, who loses her mind, for wanting the throne , for the wrong reasons.

And as a Daenerys fan, I won't have my wish fullfilled for her to end and die like a good guy , but I hope the story Will be different and devoid of the "crazy woman" aspect . If book Daenerys turns into a tyrant, prone to rage, cruel, ruthless woman who won't be able to handle her worst impulses of Fire and blood and that's her undoing , Im up for all that. Just not another tale of how the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, please.

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On 5/20/2019 at 10:53 AM, the tower of albion said:

 Just how tyranical could dany be in the books? (Destroying Kings landing? Surely that will be the work or Jon Conington with his grey scale induced madness who will be put down by the pretender Aegon who loves him as a father.)

Oh, this post made me so happy. It gives me hope for what D&D's stupid ending, that tosses two character arcs out the window, could really mean.

What if you're right and Conington brings grey scale to Kings Landing. Dany and Jon find out about it. Dany burns the city to prevent the grey scale plague from spreading, starting at the walls and moving in to the center, like we were shown. With troops killing those trying to flee, like we saw, but the motive is entirely different. Then, maybe she doesn't burn the red keep, or the throne and somehow gets infected because of this, and starts to go mad from grey scale and Jon kills her out of mercy, then melts the throne and burns down the red keep. Same end, Dany burns city, goes mad, Jon kills her, dragon melts throne. But, all of it is in character. Eliminating fAegon and Jon Con may be why this whole season felt so wrong. Until I read otherwise, this is my new head cannon.

Because we have been shown that Dany will kill in large volume without needing to determine guilt of innocence of each individual, and this is a scenario where that quality is a positive. 

On 5/20/2019 at 11:04 AM, Dorotea said:

I do have a bone to pick with the show big time, and yes, at the moment I feel like they spoiled me the ending of the books without giving proper emotional catharsis. It is almost as if they knew the strong anti-war, anti-imperial conquest/expansion message would not sell that well, so they cheapened and dissolved it via delivery by cheap emotional shock. Plus the clear ringing misogynistic streak, that 'probably' was not intended but got delivered nonetheless. Two, no three, Queens vying for the throne/s , two of them turned sadistic mass-murderer monstrosities..., and one ( Sansa ) close enough to make her repulsive;  and it is clearly was is going to happen in the books, albeit with more character build-up and with extreme finesse. I am not sure I want to read about this. The count of women-turning-monster in the books is already higher than in any other epic fantasy : the unCat, Arya, Mel, Cercei build up, adding Sansa's and Dany's arcs to the count is becoming sort of skewed to the point of breaking.

Another fAegon casualty as he should be the one going mad with power on the throne when Dany and Jon ride into town, with Tyrion working to crate peace with him as he is friends with all three of the Targs (or two and a fake, depending on how it plays out). And him being a man changes the narrative feel drastically. I do not for a second think the books will have the misogynistic feel that the show had.

On 5/20/2019 at 3:45 PM, Ingelheim said:

There are certain arcs that I believe will not be the same (Jaime, Cersei, Arya, maybe even Bran himself), but at the end of the day, the main plot of ASOIAF and GOT look to be the same:

1. Jon and Dany fall in love.

2. Dany goes mad.

3. Jon fights Daenerys and kills her.

I doubt the journey will be similar, I don't think the reasons behind Dany's fall will be the same, but the general outline will. She will die before she sits on the Iron Throne.

The only thing I'm still unsure is how the Others fit into all of this. Before this season I totally thought they were the main ending and the real threat, but I'm not so sure right now. Maybe the final showdown between Dany and Jon will be the true ending. This is A Song of Ice and Fire after all.

I feel the same. I suspect that the order is correct as it fits the prophecy of Water- ice is frozen water, and when the others are killed in the books they turn to water not ice shards. Cersei, even if she isn't the last one on the throne like in the show will still need to be dealt with and is a Lion. Then the love forging is the Targs, and the waking from stone stuff does seem to link this to the grey scale epidemic in some way. Most fans just took the prophecy to literally, as we were no doubt supposed to. But in the books the Free folk are described as a spear pointed at the heart of the realm. So if a people can be a weapon, and the realm is a heart... then the house/element that holds the realm or is defeated to save the realm would be the symbol. So I'm pretty sure this is the way it will go, just executed much better in the books. 

The Bran stuff makes me uneasy, as the whole thing feels sinister to me, and when I think of the books it feels even darker than the unease the show gave me. I kind of picture Brans end as being similar to how we see Hodor when Bran takes over his mind. So fitting, but scary at the same time. But, it fits with all the Pearl Emperor stuff if you think of his wives as Weirwoods, and carrying as him flying so... And when you think in terms of prophecy and 'brings the dawn' meaning brings the return of the Empire of the Dawn, and the regaining what you lost meaning the Starks descend from the Pearl emperor it does seem to fit, in a slightly horror vibe kinda way. 

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22 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree.  Unless Winds progresses much faster than I think it will, like Dany will get to Westeros in the middle of the book not the end, I don't see how he can possibly wrap it up in 2 books, unless he does some kind of time jump, because I stick with my belief that Bran as an elected king will have to be 15 for it to be taken seriously.  If there are only two novels that would also mean that we'd have Jon and Dany falling in love, if they do, AND Dany going off the deep end all in the same novel, which seems also too fast to me, even assuming it will be 500% better than the hack job the show did.

Plus there's the fAegon plot, Euron plot, Cersei plot and the list goes on. I have no idea on how it could all fit in 2 books. 

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13 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Plus there's the fAegon plot, Euron plot, Cersei plot and the list goes on. I have no idea on how it could all fit in 2 books. 

I 100% agree, but this also means we will likely never get the true ending given how slow GRRM writes... And I really want to know all about the fAegon, Euron and actual Stannis stuff... :(

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If I had to guess. 

Winds: Dany will travel back to Mereen with a Dothraki army. She and Tyrion plot some clever way to take it back. Dany has to be talked back from just trampling it with Dothraki and and burning by Dragons. Jon will not remain dead for too long. His body will remain preserved until Mel can ressurect him fairly quickly (we saw what a long lay over does with Catelyn). I think the Pink Letter will be true but we will actually get a perspective of the battle somehow and see how it goes down. Possible Stannis loses and his army is on the brink and that's what gets Mel to burn Shireen and maybe burning her is a sacrafice that brings Jon back. Either way Stannis still falls in a similar fashion. The early to middle portions of the book will be a newly ressurected Jon consolidating Northerners to his cause to defeat Ramsay while Sansa and LF scheme in the Vale and similar situation happenes where Jon is backed up by a Vale army and wins back Winterfell reuniting with Sansa. I also would bet that they would confirm that Jeyne isn't Arya beforehad so that a lot of Lords back off from Roose and Ramsay. Dany honestly shouldn't set sail for Westeros until midbook as this battle is going on. Meanwhile Cersei is dealing with a three pronged assault from the Sparrows and knowing that Aegon is mounting an assault. 

If I were to guess, I would think Winds final conflict is Dany realizing that a pretender is trying to usurp her claim and Dany and Aegon have a Dance with Dragons where we see a particularly brutal Dany win back Dragonstone. and burn Aegon. However, Dany's army gets nerffed in the battle. This sets the stage for Dany needing a Northern alliance to help her in the war with Cersei Lannister. 

A Dream of Spring: Roughly what we got in the show. I think Dany will be fleshed out more as a bit more brutal and self serving. Her primary purpose for aligning with Jon will be more about gaining a Northern Army and we will see heavy doses of her distrusting the Northerners and growing irrate that she is not being accepted with open arms. I just feel it will be a lot more fleshed out where Dany's experience in Westeros will be less than stellar and she'll feel isolated and we'll see self righteous indignation. I really don't know how the battle with the Others goes. If there is a great Other I would expect Arya being the assassin still gets the kill in the end. Part of me thinks that it will be less one sided and more of a brutal slugfest where mass causalities will happen but ultimately the heroes slay the Others and burn every last body. I don't think it will get out of the North though. I would assume this is the midpoint of the book and it's a big heroic victory. 

Then we get roughly similar beats in King's Landing. Dany loses a dragon to Euron's horn, it is more apparent the North distrusts her, the people aren't rising for her like she hoped. Personally I think she just goes compleely rogue and just burns the city from the jump and doesn't even get the moment of surrendering. 

I'm almost 100% positive the climactic scene will be Jon killing Dany in the throne room. That is just way too specific and seem's like such a center piece to the story to not happen. 

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Did it change how I perceived the books? Yes, 

Does this mean I will not continue reading them? No and Yes.

If TWOW ever sees the light of day and I hint that Bran will be King without a reasonable explanation other than him being all-knowing and all-powerful and being able to know what other people are doing I will drop the book and never ever open it again. 

A Gog like King sounds like a nice mixture of 1984 and North Korea.

Here is a child of twelve with all this power and knowledge. How long do you think it will take for a religion to form around Bran? 

Varys is right when he says that power resides where people want it to reside. 

 

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On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 6:49 PM, Cas Stark said:

I agree.  Unless Winds progresses much faster than I think it will, like Dany will get to Westeros in the middle of the book not the end, I don't see how he can possibly wrap it up in 2 books, unless he does some kind of time jump, because I stick with my belief that Bran as an elected king will have to be 15 for it to be taken seriously.  If there are only two novels that would also mean that we'd have Jon and Dany falling in love, if they do, AND Dany going off the deep end all in the same novel, which seems also too fast to me, even assuming it will be 500% better than the hack job the show did.

I think that the story needs a time jump or chapters having a big time interval between them. Sam needs months to learn anything useful, jon or whoever needs time to unify, stabilize and prepare the north for the others (convince the lords, man the Wall, prepare weapons, get food), danny is a year away from reaching westeros?, arya needs time to train, sansa needs time for her transformation into alayne and back into sansa…

We need at least a year to pass in winds. 

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10 hours ago, random girl from westeros said:

Did it change how I perceived the books? Yes, 

Does this mean I will not continue reading them? No and Yes.

If TWOW ever sees the light of day and I hint that Bran will be King without a reasonable explanation other than him being all-knowing and all-powerful and being able to know what other people are doing I will drop the book and never ever open it again. 

A Gog like King sounds like a nice mixture of 1984 and North Korea.

Here is a child of twelve with all this power and knowledge. How long do you think it will take for a religion to form around Bran? 

Varys is right when he says that power resides where people want it to reside. 

 

The books do imply that Bran as king will be worshipped as a god

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On 5/20/2019 at 11:00 AM, Nami said:

I look at the books on my shelf now and think: Dany is my favorite character. I relate to her in a sense. I've rooted for her and cried with her. Is this really where all her struggles and pain are gonna lead her to? Turning mad and being killed by her boyfriend? What was the point of it all?

To be honest, Dany was never (in the show) my favorite character and I relate to her in the last couple of episodes. I am in a situation at work that makes me feel very similar (feeling like there is someone better and others want to replace me with this person). I get super paranoid and sometimes do want to burn the entire place down.

(not really, but i do relate to the feeling)

I do not like the pacing of the show, so quite on the opposite, that makes me hold the books in even higher regard, because even if the result will be the same, the journey will make more sense (I am assuming). 

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I think with the original 5 year gap that GRRM did plan on Bran being about 17 years old and becoming king.  I guess we will never know if he changed his plans unless he just comes out and tells us his concept of the ending now.  No, we will never get a resolution in book form.

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Posted (edited)

Actually yes. Prior to the show Jon Snow was my favourite character. 

By the season 4 I started rooting for Alliser Thorne and I prayed for Jon to stay dead, in books as well.

I really-really-really dislike the way Kit Harrington played Jon. He irritated me so much, ugh. 

Edited by DanaKz

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

The books do imply that Bran as king will be worshipped as a god

Do you have a quote of this? It's been a while since  I read the books. 

Edited by random girl from westeros

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Posted (edited)

It has definitively changed the way, how I view the books. GRRM allways spoke, that he was not pleased with the way of how Tolkien wrote in LotR that Aragorn "ruled good and wisely" and how he allways wanted to know what that means. Turns out bis solution to this unsolved dilema by humans (which obviously can't be solved), is putting an all-knowing semi-deity in charge. No shit Sherlock, who would have guessed that?

Edited by T and A

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2 hours ago, T and A said:

It has definitively changed the way, how I view the books. GRRM allways spoke, that he was not pleased with the way of how Tolkien wrote in LotR that Aragorn "ruled good and wisely" and how he allways wanted to know what that means. Turns out bis solution to this unsolved dilema by humans (which obviously can't be solved), is putting an all-knowing semi-deity in charge. No shit Sherlock, who would have guessed that?

But do you think it is a good idea to have a God like King in charge? Jaehaerys the first was a good ruler, he wasn't a demi-god. 

If the solution to end this dilemma is to put a god in charge the GRRM has little faith in humanity and I wouldn't judge him for that but is a little hypocritical for an atheist.  

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, random girl from westeros said:

But do you think it is a good idea to have a God like King in charge? Jaehaerys the first was a good ruler, he wasn't a demi-god. 

If the solution to end this dilemma is to put a god in charge the GRRM has little faith in humanity and I wouldn't judge him for that but is a little hypocritical for an atheist.  

It is not about religion. My problem is, that putting Bran in charge, is a chheezy cop-out of the philosophical and political dilema of being a good ruler, given the limited capacities of the human nature. By making Bran a King, he just bypasses the problem, and does not give an answer. Sure, he obviously does not have a definitive one, no one does, since we are all humans and captured by our limited rationality. But to say that the best ruler is an all-knowing deity, is not an answer at all. Yes, we know that Einstein. Thanks for the cake. 

Edited by T and A

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, T and A said:

It is not about religion. My problem is, that putting Bran in charge, is a chheezy cop-out of the philosophical and political dilema of being a good ruler, given the limited capacities of the human nature. By making Bran a King, he just bypasses the problem, and does not give an answer. Sure, he obviously does not have a definitive one, no one does, since we are all humans and captured by our limited rationality. But to say that the best ruler is an all-knowing deity, is not an answer at all. Yes, we know that Einstein. Thanks for the cake. 

You made a good point. When you have a God-like being in charge, there is no space for growing or improvement.

Tywin asked Tommen what make a good ruler, but we never got to hear a definitive answer, and perhaps within the human context that is the point of it. Not Having the answer while solving the problems. Or maybe by solving the problem you get closer to a good answer.

  It feels as if Westeros is entering in their own dark ages. 

Edited by random girl from westeros

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