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Nami

Do you feel this show had any negative effect on how you view the books?

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Not at all. If anything, I have more faith in the books. We know GRRM told D&D the broad strokes of the ending. The ending we got on the show wasn't bittersweet at all- every single character, except for Dany, has received a happy ending. This is the most fairytale an ending can get. I truly feel Dany's entire arc on the show has been pointless. Her end was tragic and undeserving- she has lost everything, went from hero to zero in one episode, and gets killed immediately after. I don't think Dany will get a happy ending in the books, I believe she will ultimately die, but it will all make sense and will be handled carefully over the course TWoW and ADoS. 

R+L=J has been pointless too. The arcs of two of the most important characters in the series have been pointless. 

Additional note: Sam calling the histories of the world A Song of Ice and Fire baffles me. If the show followed the theme of ice and fire then yeah, it would make sense, but since it hasn't I just don't understand why.

I really hope we get to see the true journey. 

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1 minute ago, fairwarging said:

Whatever your opinion of Dany's storyline, I think it's pretty clear in the books she's toast. The point is that Sansa was the least Northern of the children, but recognized her Stark roots and reclaimed them, which is a storyline I can really get behind. With Bran missing, she is the presumed heir to the north, so why would it make more sense for her to rule the Vale when she zero claim? The best she can hope for in the vale is brood mare and Regent. And there can be more than one female ruler, though I think there won't be. 

Because the north is on its way to be ruled by jon or rickon. In the north the male heirs come first and we also have robb's will. Then sansa is married to tyrion… So technicaly sansa is probably last in line (nobody would want tyrion as ruler of winterfell).

Sansa has a huge journey ahead of her and it looks to be about how to outsmart LF and make the vale join the north. And I don t think a woman being married and having kids makes her a broodmare… It is just the way medieval society works...

Another important thing is that even if sansa wanted she doesn t really know how to be a stark. She spent her entire life rejecting the northern way and preparing to live in the south. If she is suposed to regain her roots it should happen after she spends time in winterfell with her familly.

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Jewel said:

Additional note: Sam calling the histories of the world A Song of Ice and Fire baffles me. If the show followed the theme of ice and fire then yeah, it would make sense, but since it hasn't I just don't understand why.

That was the most awful part.

Edited by teej6

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Not really, I have considered this show fan fiction for a few seasons now.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

No. It is the journey that matters, and I'm confident that GRRM wil handle the ending in a considerably different way even though the outcome may look the same.

:agree:

And as to “looking the same”, I think the similarities will be more to do with characters a, b, c live, and characters x, y, z die. 

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Lol! There won't be any more books people, this seals the deal.

If GRRM was already struggling from the complexity and the pressure, do you really think the GOT ending is going to do anything to help that? If the endgame is basically the same, he has no more surprises to reveal, except the enormous pressure of getting there in a more satisfying way. The crushing pressure to perform has quadrupled.

Alternatively, GRRM could try adding in or beefing up a bunch of stuff to keep it fresh, which means an even more meandering and convoluted plotting, which we all know slows GRRM down like running through molasses. In almost any scenario, motivation to finish these books has to have been seriously crippled by the show.

The only way I see these books getting done is if GRRM absolutely HATED season 8 with such a raging passion, that he now pours every ounce of energy into finishing these books to salvage his legacy. I don't see that happening.

GOT season 8 is the only end of this story you will ever get.

 

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

So if he has kids with Val, are they going to be true born or bastards? In the show, Tyrion explicitly tells him he can’t marry and have kids (made me want to punch Dinklage in the face when I heard that). When Stannis offers him Winterfell, he begins to hope for kids... hope that one day his kid and Gilly’s will be like brothers just like Robb and him. It’s shitty writing to throw him back into the penal colony with no hope for a normal life after all I imagine he will be put through before the end. I’d rather he die if this is the end GRRM has planned for him. 

Didn't Tormund dismiss the very notion of bastary in the books? Plus, weirwood aplenty up there, so just say the words. And north of the Wall (or its former site), no-one would really care about the lineage, and South wouldn't know.

But I agree that sending him back to the NW doesn't make much sense, because the institution lost its purpose now. If it remained as a sort of northern guard, though, then it would indeed be the place where Jon might be sent to. It would be a bitter end for sure (which is why I would prefer Jon ride with Val and Ghost into the sunset).

1 hour ago, divica said:

He can t be in love with danny and sudenly end up with val.

Why "suddenly"? First, Val was always likeable. Second, it would be months before he would even return North. Third, I never said "immediately". Fourth, Val might steal Jon :-)

1 hour ago, divica said:

And if some wildlings go north it sounds like it would be the worst of them that don t accept to live in society… Like cannibals or rapists...

Absolutely not. Some people simply prefer freedom from set rules and social norms, without necessarily harming others.

1 hour ago, divica said:

And having jon do everything to save the realm no matter the cost, kill the woman he loves and ending up exiled from the realm is depressing...

Well, yeah, but we weren't promised a happy ending... I just thought that Jon's stay among the wildlings seemed almost happy and that it might actually be a better outcome for him than the vipers' pit of KL.

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And as to “looking the same”, I think the similarities will be more to do with characters a, b, c live, and characters x, y, z die. 

Yeah, something like that. Minus the wheelchair.

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

:agree:

And as to “looking the same”, I think the similarities will be more to do with characters a, b, c live, and characters x, y, z die. 

Agreed.

Consider this quote by GRRM:

Quote

The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn’s arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany’s marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn’t arrived yet.

This writing style is why the books take so long, and also why the books are unlikely to be that close to the show.  Even if some of the biggest highlights will be the same, the journey is going to be completely different.

Another quote:

Quote

As you know, I don't outline my novels," Martin wrote to his publisher in 1993. "I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle characters in the drama."

The show just cares about hitting the plot points and doesn't care if the set up to those plot points makes any sense.  They can change entire story lines from the books and they will still force their way back to the plot points they want to hit as if they didn't change a thing.

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2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Absolutely not. Some people simply prefer freedom from set rules and social norms, without necessarily harming others.

But they already have that in the north. Jon gave them land in the gift that belong to the NW. They can live as they want within those lands...

And after all this war it makes much more sense for people to achieve some compromise in order to have the wildlings be accepted in the north than for them to go back …It would just mean that in a couple of years the conflict between the wildlings and the north would restart… that all this story about coming together was pointless and that there will always be war between the wildlings and the north...

Besides the fact that the wildlings want to go south of the Wall for thousands of years. They finally achieved their objective! Have the suport of some northern lords! And then would just go back to their froen wasteland in the midle of winter?

Wether you thought it looked pretty for him to go north of the Wall, it makes no logical sense...

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1 minute ago, Tadco26 said:

The show just cares about hitting the plot points and doesn't care if the set up to those plot points makes any sense.  They can change entire story lines from the books and they will still force their way back to the plot points they want to hit as if they didn't change a thing.

This. 

And that’s one of the reasons why the show is so hugely unsatisfying. 

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

Besides the fact that the wildlings want to go south of the Wall for thousands of years.

The free folk wanted go fo south to flee from the threat of the WWs. 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

The free folk wanted go fo south to flee from the threat of the WWs. 

That was the reason why mance gathered them.

How do they feel about the place they live in? why do they hate the NW? Why have there been several kings behind the Wall trying to go south? how do they feel about the Wall?

The wildlings dream is to get land south of the Wall where they can live freely...

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The knife the show has been driving very effectively into my gut - I'll have to wait and see how to deal with that - is the thematic one. Regardless of individual plots and endings (which I doubt are drawn from the books at this point) there is the fact that there is no payoff whatsoever. It is continuing with shitty and standard politics and the only good way to deal with this is to actually leave Westeros (either by ship or to go the Wall).

This underlines the pointlessness of the entire story. I honestly don't want to have wasted as much time and effort on a silly fantasy series which, in the end, was just about a pointless political plot that's never going to be resolved, anyway. I didn't like that aspect very much when I first read the books.

I completely agree on basically everything you say here. It doesn't happen that often that I agree with you though :P.  

I am just schocked by now. At this point, it doesn't really matter, how much those awefull writers have adapted it correctly and how much is their "input". What matters for me is the theme of the story. As soon as I saw the last episode of Danny going "mad", I knew this story is basically wasted. And Bran is obviously the least favourite character of Dumb and Dumber. Him becoming King, must come straight from GRRM. They would never do that by themself. If they had to choose, it would be Cersei.

What was the point of all of this story? 

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Just now, divica said:

That was the reason why mance gathered them.

How do they feel about the place they live in? why do they hate the NW? Why have there been several kings behind the Wall trying to go south? how do they feel about the Wall?

The wildlings dream is to get land south of the Wall where they can live freely... 

Of course the show Wildlings were perfectly behaved citizens once they were allowed south of the wall, despite being raiders with no respect for laws of the North prior to that.  The show Wildlings could be allowed to live peacefully south of the wall and why not?

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No - this doesn't change how I look at the books or will read them when they come out.  If this is the broad ending that was talked about, I think I will be disappointed that Bran ends up as the king but as far as comparing the two together...not really.

For all of the stuff that seems to be missed between the show and the books and even within the show itself, I don't look at the early seasons as favorably as I did.  This is a bigger, more expensive BSG.

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28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

:agree:

And as to “looking the same”, I think the similarities will be more to do with characters a, b, c live, and characters x, y, z die. 

And Bran the Broken as King. I have no idea how GRRM is going to pull this off if this is still his intent. Bran is currently 9-10 in the books and since GRRM dropped the 5-yr jump, how is this going to work? And the Bran in the books is not going to usurper his brother/cousin’s claim if Jon is still around, able and willing, and then banish him to the far North. I hope not. I hate Show!Bran. I do hope Bran in the books doesn’t turn out like his show counterpart. 

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Posted (edited)

While I applaud the author for taking the high risk road and making Dany into a tyrant, the end that I've always wanted for her, if she didn't give up her quest and fly away to find a house with a red door, I find this successfully turned me against my own bloodlust and that the tragedy of the formerly brave and tenacious Dany isn't something I care to read.  Nor do I really care to find that all of Jon's history and his whole story is largely pointless, he's back to the start, cold and alone in the North.  Same for Arya.  As far as Sansa getting the queenship she always wanted, ugh, to give this character the closest thing to a happy ending, ugh.  Except for of course the author's proxies, Tyrion and Sam who also get happy endings. 

So, I'm much, much less interested in the books from here on out.

Edited by Cas Stark

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6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

While I applaud the author for taking the high risk road and making Dany into a tyrant, the end that I've always wanted for her, if she didn't give up her quest and fly away to find a house with a red door, I find this successfully turned me against my own bloodlust and that the tragedy of the formerly brave and tenacious Dany isn't something I care to read.  Nor do I really care to find that all of Jon's history and his whole story is largely pointless, he's back to the start, cold and alone in the North.  Same for Arya.  As far as Sansa getting the queenship she always wanted, ugh, to give this character the closest thing to a happy ending, ugh.  Except for of course the author's proxies, Tyrion and Sam who also get happy endings. 

So, I'm much, much less interested in the books from here on out.

Well said. But I still have hope that in the next book bran and sansa's fates make it impossible for them to end in the same place as in the show. That would make me interested in the books again.

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5 hours ago, Nami said:

Is this really the ending we're going to get? Are you ok with that?
I look at the books on my shelf now and think: Dany is my favorite character. I relate to her in a sense. I've rooted for her and cried with her. Is this really where all her struggles and pain are gonna lead her to? Turning mad and being killed by her boyfriend? What was the point of it all?

I legit cried when she died - and started bawling when Drogon pushed her corpse trying to wake her up. 

 

I wanted Drogon to blow Jon Snow to smithereens. But no, bitter is fuck you to all Dany fans, and sweet is for literally everyone else. 

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6 minutes ago, divica said:

Well said. But I still have hope that in the next book bran and sansa's fates make it impossible for them to end in the same place as in the show. That would make me interested in the books again.

D&D would never make Bran, whom they have butchered and ignored the most in the show, the ruler at the end, if it was not coming from GRRM. 

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