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Nami

Do you feel this show had any negative effect on how you view the books?

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Posted (edited)

Well, I actually trust GRRM not to make the same mistake as D*&D* and ruin the story by not daring to touch the character development : thus ruining the show's ratings way in advance finale. See, IMHO, they cared more about their ratings while the show was running to chicken out of actual drama, choosing the cheap shock instead.

 

What I am actually pretty upset about in the potential ending with  bad bad monster Dany is - see above the fact that the story becomes a collection  misogynistic tropes marching merrily down the line whistling the tune of all our women characters are either (sexual abuse ) victims or power-hungry monsters, and sometimes both, cause you know, that's how all the women are.

I was pretty suspicious of him spending too much time on Dany's sex scenes, now I am wondering if that was his message all along...

Edited by Dorotea
misspelling

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The show has only made me appreciate the books more. When the show does something stupid, it just makes me want to go and read something instead.

 

 I don't mind if the story ends up hitting the same major beats (like Dany going bad), as I am fully confident that George will tell the story leading up them in a more dynamic way. 

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11 hours ago, Nami said:

Is this really the ending we're going to get? Are you ok with that?
I look at the books on my shelf now and think: Dany is my favorite character. I relate to her in a sense. I've rooted for her and cried with her. Is this really where all her struggles and pain are gonna lead her to? Turning mad and being killed by her boyfriend? What was the point of it all?

I'm with you on this! I've always expected her to die, but I don't want her to become mad or the bad guy. I've always thought and hoped that she would become more ruthless, but that was it.

Even if Dany didn't get the throne, I wasn't expecting Bran to become king and it was kind of a turn off, tbh. I've always hated the idea of Jon or even Sansa becoming king/queen, but even that would've been better than King Bran. That was very disappointing! :(

So, to me, there's nothing bittersweet about the ending. It's just bitter and it did made me a little bit less excited about the books. However, I'm still going to read them (if GRRM ever finishes them), because the characters' journey still is very interesting and enjoyable. Besides, the books will probably explain certain pre-ASOIAF events, like the things that led to Robert's Rebellion, which to me is also very interesting, maybe more than who gets the IT.

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OP

Yes. The fact that GRRM is going to have Daenerys become a callous monster who has to be put down is a horrible story to tell. A character has all that good in them, saves the world and yet is snuffed out by events beyond her control like madness. It’s a deeply nihilist ending.

Knowing that Danys struggle is doomed to failure and that her and others struggles to protect her will come to nothing. Its a terrible thing to know in advance. So I know that when Mirri tells Jorah “there are some shadows even you cannot protect her from” it’s because she’ll go mad and become the Mad Queen. There’s a futility to that which will ruin a key element of the story for me. That Daenerys is still that scared little girl we meet in Pentos and deserves to be saved. To know emphatically that there’s no chance of that? I don’t see how it couldn’t spoil the story. 

When you’re boiling a lobster you warm the water first. But the waters already boiling now.

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6 hours ago, T and A said:

And Bran is obviously the least favourite character of Dumb and Dumber. Him becoming King, must come straight from GRRM. They would never do that by themself.

Nah, that's just fucking with the audience (another twist, you know) and to actually make some use of a character they didn't exactly use much in the show.

Changing the story greatly so that's basically another story while also keeping the characters around who should do other things and play completely different roles causes you to invent stuff for them, including new endings.

The idea that 10-11-year-old crippled Stark boy could ever rule the Seven Kingdoms in his own right - especially after becoming a powerful greenseer who is very likely going to be fed and fueled by ritual blood sacrifices is utterly insane.

Bran certainly might become the most powerful creature in the entire series, but he would not only be unsuited to rule but also be completely disinterested and thus incapable of doing the job.

6 hours ago, T and A said:

What was the point of all of this story? 

I don't know. The show didn't really have a story or a proper ending; one can only hope that the book story focuses somewhat better on what it intends to tell, especially in relation to the Others plot.

I still think that the Others are the finale of the books - as indicated in the original outline - and that means the story is going to be completely different there.

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Posted (edited)

There are certain arcs that I believe will not be the same (Jaime, Cersei, Arya, maybe even Bran himself), but at the end of the day, the main plot of ASOIAF and GOT look to be the same:

1. Jon and Dany fall in love.

2. Dany goes mad.

3. Jon fights Daenerys and kills her.

I doubt the journey will be similar, I don't think the reasons behind Dany's fall will be the same, but the general outline will. She will die before she sits on the Iron Throne.

The only thing I'm still unsure is how the Others fit into all of this. Before this season I totally thought they were the main ending and the real threat, but I'm not so sure right now. Maybe the final showdown between Dany and Jon will be the true ending. This is A Song of Ice and Fire after all.

Edited by Ingelheim

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3 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I know right! Even if what we saw was the "broad strokes" of the ending GRRM has planned, I felt like what was really the point of it all? I mean, we can get the same drama just reading the news. And I feel that GRRM is going to give a vague ending to the gods/magic stuff in the books that have intrigued a lot of readers.  I kinda feel like a gambling addict, waiting for a major payoff in the end, when all I've been doing is giving myself a mental illness. :'(

Well, on a narrative level a finished ASoIaF should also quickly lose its allure considering that most of the stuff that keeps readers occupied is speculate and talk about (then) utterly pointless prophecies and visions and foreshadowing and stuff.

Thematically, Yandel already told us that things will endlessly repeat themselves, so we can definitely not expect any kind of significant political change. That is simply not the topic of the entire series.

I cannot wrap my head around the prospect that there will be continuous infighting after the Others are defeated. This is not going to be a thing that's going to be ended in a couple of chapters. If that works well, if people can see beyond their petty ambitions - and that should include all the people participating in the fight against the Others - then they can rise to a different level at least in their personal journeys and, perhaps, build a somewhat better world within the shitty framework of the society they all live in.

Without any kind of resolution in that regard - and into what kind of adults the children who have scarely reached puberty will grow - the entire story will have been pretty pointless.

In fact, considering that most of the characters are children in the books one really ask oneself how the personal stories of the people who are still not even sixteen when the curtain falls can have reached an end there. How is it that the 12-year-old Arya is more interesting than, say, the 32-year-old Arya? And so on.

This could easily be a very shallow and arbitrary ending, even if it is good prose and actually resolves the main narrative plot lines very well.

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In 2015 or so when the show overtook the books, I did have some bitter feelings towards the books, because I didn't think the show would outpace them. Now, though, I don't, I've made my peace. The show is the show, the books are the books. I'm 'fine' with this ending but I know that if the books come out it will be way better than what we had here. The only thing I've been more certain about, over the years, is that the books may actually never be released. Gradually that has become a real and strong possibility, unfortunately. And the fact that GOT will become a bigger franchise with the prequels and stuff doesn't make me feel any better about it, it feels like the books are being left behind...

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No, because D&D are a pair of incompetent hacks; I've railed against the show since season 4 when you can start to see it going off the rails. 

Whether this is the ending GRRM is going for I don't know, it could be, but I doubt it'd be so poorly and incoherently put together if it is. The show writing is so poor the only way for D&D to advance plot is for all the characters to be either mentally retarded or mad, as no decision makes a blind bit of sense unless cast in that light given the characters in many cases simply function as cardboard cut outs not multifaceted individuals with conflicting positions and personalities of their own.  

More than likely they were given the basic points, now whether they followed them or did their usual "subversion" trope is another matter entirely. 

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Hi all, Personally, I am looking forward even more to read the books. I need to know the story behind all this, the motivations, the decisions, the stories in their heads.

I want to see what happens at the Citadel, I want to know what happens to Mance Rayder. Where Arya's journey actually leads and how Jon copes with his 'death'. 

I want to know what leads Dany to her breakdown or whatever it is. 

There's a mystery behind the Others and Bran and all the stories behind all of it.

So, perhaps we have to go forward with a tragic ending but the journey there could be fascinating.

Perhaps I am a bit jaded but tragedy seems to befall in life more than happy endings. A more realistic end to the books.

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By the way, I said it last week, I'm pretty sure this will be the only ending we are getting. Martin is not finishing the books at this rate, not a single chance.

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I haven’t watched this show since the first season but I did look up on line and got some details on the series finale. And I pray that GRRM doesn’t go this route, especially Dany’s. I don’t want her going mad at all nor Jon killing her. I hope the books end on a much satisfying ending than that ugly show. 

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The books are the books and the show is the show. There is zero reason to judge GRRM's books by the ending of someone else's adaptation. I'll patiently await the release of future volumes and if and when they come out judge these books accordingly. This is not the ending of the books, and it does not tarnish them. It is a completely different series.

 

If anything, it's had a positive effect, by making me further appreciate so many of the great things that the awful show left out.

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I thought when time comes to fight WW, everyone would just look at the IT and think 'why did we ever even want that thing'? GRRM hints famine for Westeros and plague for Essos in the coming books. When the Others come, this would probably lead to near total devastation. I thought the show would show all the 7 kingdoms completely destroyed. But here pretty much everything is intact after the Great War, including the stupid feudal infighting. 

My take was that when the WW are defeated, the world wouldn't look the same. It's possible the seasons themselves might change. And there will be a lot of rebuilding to do afterwards, and building things is always harder than destroying things. 

I thought the sort of bitter feeling at the end of the show, where the heroes win but really lose, is where we are at at the start of ASOIAF. I mean, Rhaegar (possible true hero) is dead, the throne has been usurped, dragons are gone, people are fighting--everything is essentially going wrong. I thought Dany getting her dragons was hope returning that the warmbloods would have a fighting chance. And there's also Jon becoming the Lord Commander, which should have been the most important post in the world when the WW came, not some throne anywhere. The Lord Commander of the NW should have been the most important man on the planet. There's also Bran's warg powers, where he can see into the heart of winter and all that. 

But if what we saw in the show is where GRRM is really going, then I'm not sure if the books would be worth the wait. It looks like the mystical stuff and the gods would play a side role, kind of like sprinkles on top, but without adding much substance. And Dany and her dragons are bad after all. Jon is just the everyman hero. I was most excited for Arya, but it all seems to kinda fall flat. 

I used to be upset that GRRM might never finish the books. But now I'm kinda glad that he probably won't. It was really the show that kept the enthusiasm for the books alive. It aired like every year so no one could forget about the books. Now that the show has ended really bitterly, I can't be really excited for the remaining books. I mean, we want to be blown away by the new revelations, not be left confused and bitter about all of it. 

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Posted (edited)

If anything I'm more hyped now for the books. Most important plot points this season were good, the execution was just shit. Jon and Dany's arcs ending like this is classic GRRM. It's like people forgot about Ned's death and the Red Wedding. Those dark twists would be bad too without the proper build up which is what was lacking here.


Of course butthurt Dany fans didn't like the Mad queen direction but it fits and makes her more compelling. It's ridiculous to act like this is some sort of sexist message when many men in the show have been way more fucked up and crazy (and went out in bad ways), yet no one whined there.  People who want Disney power fantasies for Jon and Dany were reading the wrong series

Edited by Journey95

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2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I haven’t watched this show since the first season but I did look up on line and got some details on the series finale. And I pray that GRRM doesn’t go this route, especially Dany’s. I don’t want her going mad at all nor Jon killing her. I hope the books end on a much satisfying ending than that ugly show. 

Dany going mad is definitely happening in the books, it's too important of a plot point for D&D to invent. And too bold for them, they would have gone with the Jonerys fanservice ending that most wanted.

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For me it rekindled my interest in the books, up to season 7 the show had been doing a decent enough job and I was content watching Game of Thrones for my ASOIAF fix. But now that the show has torched the landing I'm keen to see the book ending. I don't think it really can be the same. How can Bran be king in the books? He is a freaking tree, so that enough shows that whatever there similarities the show has landed a good ways from the books.

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I thought I learned very little about the future books from the show.  A few elements seemed plausible, but it is anyone's guess how they will play out in the books.

I'm not even sure the story is over.  Seems to me that D&D have constructed "Shroedinger's Ending", which can pass as an ending if no demand arises for a sequel series, but leaves room for more if for the demand does arise.

So Dany is now just as dead as Jon once was?  And her body did not get burnt?  Nope.  No wiggle room there at all.  To touch the light she must pass beneath the shadow of death, I guess.

Bran as King makes no sense to me.  But it could be he is a replacement for some other character who was cut from the books.

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