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Nami

Do you feel this show had any negative effect on how you view the books?

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I am confident that GRRM will write a better path to the ending. For me, Dany's turn was not handled well enough in the show but the 'lords elect a king' voting is close to what I expected (I thought the Night's Watch voting system would be adopted), Jon's fate made sense, Arya going west like Nymeria, Sansa as Queen in the North, etc. Overall the broad strokes of it felt right.

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1 hour ago, Journey95 said:

Dany going mad is definitely happening in the books, it's too important of a plot point for D&D to invent. And too bold for them, they would have gone with the Jonerys fanservice ending that most wanted.

Well, there goes the books for me. I don’t know why she must go crazy. All the women in the books go crazy and I’m sick of it. 

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17 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Well, there goes the books for me. I don’t know why she must go crazy. All the women in the books go crazy and I’m sick of it. 

One possibility I see is she does not go crazy but Jon kills her to make Lightbringer before the final battle against the Others in Kings Landing.

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54 minutes ago, Tb0ne said:

One possibility I see is she does not go crazy but Jon kills her to make Lightbringer before the final battle against the Others in Kings Landing.

That’s as bad as her going crazy. I just don’t want any scenario where Dany goes crazy or dies. She deserves better, so many characters do. 

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Did you expect that Jon and Dany would have happy endings? I thought both might die. I agree how we arrived here was mindblowingly clumsy and rushed but this is more or less the ending I expected. Ultimately Dany thought she was entitled/destined to rule Westeros because of who her father was and because she had Dragons.

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2 hours ago, Tb0ne said:

I am confident that GRRM will write a better path to the ending. 

I'm not confident GRRM will even be there for the ending. Reportedly the 6th book is mostly finished so I suppose we'll get that eventually, but that will be it from Martin. He seems to have lost interest in the story.  If ASOIAF ever gets finished, my guess is there will be a new author for book 7 much in the same way another writer finished Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series after Jordan died. I'm not predicting GRRM will die mind you, it just seems his desire to finish this tale has perished. A decade without a book speaks volumes.

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GRRM will obviously offer more explanation to situations. Dany’s demise as many have said was handled poorly in the show, because many keep arguing the for’s and against, when in reality she suffered every bit as much as Sansa did, but unfortunately Dany is easier to blame thanks to her shenanigans atop Drogon. I feel GRRM will offer a lot more in the books as I feel he will probably leave it in a bit of a cliff hanger... there are still Targaryen children/people alive besides Jon.....

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Hi long time lurker and first time poster. Just watched the finale last night and knowing the end won’t change my opinion of the books. It’s the journey that matters, we’ve all read books multiple times - we all know about Winston and rats, Frodo and the ring, Piggy, etc but we still go back and enjoy it al the more.

If anything my respect for what has come before book-wise has increased. I went into the finale having read the spoilers and  spent the week or so before randomly browsing the books and sites. that ending is there, and there is a lot of fun to be had finding the clues across all the books.

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20 hours ago, teej6 said:

What’s Bran’s age now, 9-10 in the books? How is a kid going to rule Westeros? he’ll need a regent? Without his 5-year gap how is GRRM going to make this work? He has said in the past that there’ll be several people on the IT before the end. Even then Bran will not age enough for him to take the IT. And why would Westeros want Bran to be king? If Jon’s identity is revealed (which I expect) why wouldn’t the Lords of Westeros want him to take the throne? Things don’t add up. And all this Jon being exiled plot is utter rubbish. If he does end up falling in love with Dany and killing her, I guess he’ll be a broken man and will walk away from everything but even so, why Bran?

And the whole plot about the North wanting independence despite a Stark being the King of Westeros is utter BS.

Because Jon is going to be condemned for murdering Daenerys and Bran will have no choice but judge his brother. He'll look into Jon's eyes and realize that he can't execute him so he doesn't deserve to die and sends him to the Night's Watch.

Jon= Bloodraven/Maester Aemon

Daenerys= Aenys Blackfyre

Bran = Egg

I suppose it'll be Bran because he has magic powers and the right connections.  

Remember that when GRRM came up with these endings, Bran was supposed to end the story as an adult

 

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14 hours ago, teej6 said:

If this is GRRM’s ending, he will have trolled us with endless learning to rule chapters for Dany and Jon. What was the point of these chapters for Dany and Jon? Is Bran learning to rule or just getting high on whatever paste he’s being fed. All of GRRM’s talk about Aragorn’s tax policy is moot. Is he going to show Bran’s tax policy? And what would a 10-11 (assuming that’s his age in the last book) year old know about tax policy? Oh I forgot, he’s a child prodigy, a genius. 

If GRRM ends his books the same way as in the show, then his definition of bittersweet is very different from Tolkien’s version. I can appreciate Ned and Robb’s deaths as necessary but killing/ exiling the central characters on whom pages were devoted to show them grow as leaders is completely bitter. So Jon is the most self-sacrificing and morally upright character in the books, but he gets treated like a criminal in the end. To me that is nihilistic and terribly cynical. And all to be different and subversive. 

Jon's not the most morally upright character in the books. There are several POVs like Barristan, Davos and Brienne that beat him in that regard.

That said, the Meereense Blot already told us what the purpose of their ruling chapters are for which GRRM agreed with. They're to explore their values not to train them. At the end of the day, Jon and Dany are just teens and Bran's got thousands of years of wisdom behind him.

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3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Well, there goes the books for me. I don’t know why she must go crazy. All the women in the books go crazy and I’m sick of it. 

Sansa isn't going crazy. She's normal and will be the Queen of Winter. 

Arya will eventually be brought back from the brink as will Tyrion.

But I don't think Daenerys is going crazy. She'll have the Stannis story where she has to pick between what she wants and innocent lives. She'll make the wrong choice.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I suppose it'll be Bran because he has magic powers and the right connections.  

Remember that when GRRM came up with these endings, Bran was supposed to end the story as an adult

You made my point. GRRM wanted a 5-yr gap, which he has now given up on. So, now he has to make a 10-11 year old crippled boy becoming King believable somehow. And what connections does Bran have? The North may support him, and perhaps the Riverlands if the Tullys end up retaking their seat. Why would the Reach or Dorne or the Stormlands or anyone else want an 11 yr old kid from the North for their King? And will he have a regent? Or are they going to be fine with a weird kid ruling them? And, what does magic have to with him getting elected King? Is he going to warg all the nobles on the council? George will have to come up with something brilliant to make this work. 

Edited by teej6

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27 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Jon's not the most morally upright character in the books. There are several POVs like Barristan, Davos and Brienne that beat him in that regard.

That said, the Meereense Blot already told us what the purpose of their ruling chapters are for which GRRM agreed with. They're to explore their values not to train them. At the end of the day, Jon and Dany are just teens and Bran's got thousands of years of wisdom behind him.

Jon, to me, is the most moral of the existing main characters. I’m not going to have a debate with you about this on this thread. 

The Meereenese Blot is one fan’s perspective of things. Just because GRRM may have mentioned that he liked the essay doesn’t mean that’s what he meant by those chapters. In several places GRRM has mentioned how he would like his central characters to be shown to learn to rule rather than it just being said in the end that they ruled wisely. This is exactly why he has written all those Jon and Dany chapters. 

Book!Bran can connect to the weirwood network and is a greenseer but as of now he’s very solidly planted in the frozen north. His mentor, BR, is practically a tree. It’s not clear as yet in the books as to how Bran will get back south or if he ever will. So let’s just say that Bran becoming king will involve a lot more (and I mean a lot) story from Martin. 

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Posted (edited)

Well I had fallen out of love with the book series before the (edit:) TV series aired. The series rekindled my love for the books - or kindled rather since I had always been sceptical up to that point. Anyway I  then (though) I loved the books for some years.

And now I am back where I had started out: highly sceptical.

Edited by Amris

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Posted (edited)

I don't see this as Dany going mad, but becoming increasingly brutal and ruthless. It was all in two episodes of the show but I am sure that GRRM, based on Dany's last chapter, has a far more satisfying arc planned out.

It is disappointing it ends that way (with Jon killing her for the greater good) as she is one of my favourite characters.

Anyhow the show did not nail the landing, they had the chance to provide the satisfying resolution that the books couldn't but failed miserably in anything but action set pieces.

So I will look forward to a WOW (which will probably show up in the next five years) and to any future book after that if it ever comes. Perhaps another writer will finish it off sometime, and one with far more talent and guidance that D&D seemed to have.

Edited by JagLover

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Years ago I dismissed the show as being something else entirely from the books, same characters but a different, more shallow story.  Compare the story lines in the books not even touched in the show and characters in the show not even existing in the books.  I hope I am not influenced by the show any more than like I am influenced by discussing a book I have read with someone else.  Cant help but it having a little effect but I look forward to GRRMs version.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2019 at 10:00 AM, Nami said:

Is this really the ending we're going to get? Are you ok with that?
I look at the books on my shelf now and think: Dany is my favorite character. I relate to her in a sense. I've rooted for her and cried with her. Is this really where all her struggles and pain are gonna lead her to? Turning mad and being killed by her boyfriend? What was the point of it all?

I have defended Dany many times on this forum and I was wrong. If anything it makes the books more interesting as we will have access to her POV and get to know how she thinks and feels as she becomes more of a villain. GRRM has done a great job presenting her as a sympathetic character.

Edited by DraculaAD1972

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One thing I realised. This does cast Jorahs whole “don’t trust men you think you love” in a new light. Considering she is ultimately going to trust Jon because she loves him and he’s going to put a knife in her heart. So her Bear was trying to warn her.  :crying:

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No. I actually started another reread the day after the finale to cleanse myself of disappointment. As others have mentioned, the ending isn’t what disappointed me - it was the rushed way we got there. So many interesting plot lines were just dropped for the sake of simplicity and time. I am going back to the books to seek solace in their complex plots that have yet to be sabotaged. 

(Although I must confess, at times I fear that the intricate web of plot lines may be what is stalling GRRM - his story may have become too complex for him to ever finish.)

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