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Do you feel this show had any negative effect on how you view the books?

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Posted (edited)

 

22 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

I'm not confident GRRM will even be there for the ending. Reportedly the 6th book is mostly finished so I suppose we'll get that eventually, but that will be it from Martin. He seems to have lost interest in the story.  If ASOIAF ever gets finished, my guess is there will be a new author for book 7 much in the same way another writer finished Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series after Jordan died. I'm not predicting GRRM will die mind you, it just seems his desire to finish this tale has perished. A decade without a book speaks volumes.

Speaking as someone who has worked on an art project for 5 years, you don't start with the enthusiasm that you did in the beginning. Or, more accurately, that enthusiasm waxes and wanes through the process. I honestly think the series wrapping could be a weight off his shoulders, and perhaps motivation to show people how he wanted to end his story.

 His greatest success happened at a age when most people thinking about retirement. It is a blessing and a curse. I love the guy, wish him well in finishing the books. I think he will, but really, who knows? 

 

 

Edited by Tb0ne

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2 hours ago, Tb0ne said:

 

 I honestly think the series wrapping could be a weight off his shoulders, and perhaps motivation to show people how he wanted to end his story.

 

 

I certainly hope you're right. My prediction that he won't finish the series is definitely one I would be happy to get wrong.

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Not at all. It's actually pretty close to how I wanted the story to end so I guess I'm fairly happy. 

I'm not thrilled about all the sub-plots that I'm still going to have to wade through but I'm looking forward to a more in depth look at the realm after all is said and done. 

I'm expecting more emphasis on prophecy, loose ends, and an overall better flow of time. The show was never going to deliver on that stuff with the timeline they were working in. I get that. Martin will be able to address everything us book snobs are complaining about with regards to the show.

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On 5/21/2019 at 12:11 AM, teej6 said:

You made my point. GRRM wanted a 5-yr gap, which he has now given up on. So, now he has to make a 10-11 year old crippled boy becoming King believable somehow. And what connections does Bran have? The North may support him, and perhaps the Riverlands if the Tullys end up retaking their seat. Why would the Reach or Dorne or the Stormlands or anyone else want an 11 yr old kid from the North for their King? And will he have a regent? Or are they going to be fine with a weird kid ruling them? And, what does magic have to with him getting elected King? Is he going to warg all the nobles on the council? George will have to come up with something brilliant to make this work. 

Vale, Riverlands and North would unite behind Bran.  His sister, uncle and cousin are leading those 3.

If Tyrion supports Bran like on the show then that gets the Westerlands as well. 

Sansa can work her magic to try to get the rest. 

But Bran can demonstrate his magic powers  to get people to vote for him. 

As GRRM says, why don't wizards rule the world? Power gravitates to it.

Asha's in the North atm so she could develop a relationship with the Starks as well.

That really leaves the Reach, Stormlands and Dorne. 

 

Bran could legitimize Edric or Gendry and Sam could develop a relationship with the Tyrells and Martells. We have 2 books left to get it all to work.

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I only read about half of the first book.  I stopped because I thought the books would have a negative effect on my view of the series.

Now that the series is over, i may go and read the books.

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Posted (edited)

Do you all seriously think he's actually going to make Bran king? Let me guess, you also all think he's going to make Arya end the threat of the Others and Cersei become queen.

These things happen because Dumb and Dumber are hacks who want to "subvert expectations". They forgot about the wider world outside the main characters. Nobody, absolutely nobody, would accept Bran as king. For one, he can't bloody well breed. For another, he's a nobody that no-one remembers or knows. He has no claim to the Iron Throne and the lords of Westeros would not want the Starks to have that much power. The smallfolk would not want a guy who seems to be basically a prophet of the Old Gods ruling over them. Frankly, it's far more likely that a unified kingdom of Westeros dissolves into the pre-Targaryen separate kingdoms.

I'm incredulous at all the (seemingly chielfy show-only) fans who think this is how things will end. Daenerys is being developed to be more ruthless and merciless, and she won't just go fucking mad and drop all her previous concerns and quibbles because of "muh coin flip". GRRM said himself that he finds writing like this - to "subvert expectations" for the sake of it in the belief that it is good writing to do so - utterly retarded and banal.

Edited by Municipal Engines

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Yes. It is a fundamentally stupid ending that will require huge contrivances in the books and it also manages to hit all the problematic sexist tropes. After all, Lysa, Cersei and Dany - the only 3 women wielding high-level direct power in books so far are now apparently equally evil and mad. Also, it sure looks like all 3 are going to be murdered by the men they love, to stop them from commiting further insanities. Whee! Yes, yes, we have also seen plenty of problematic powerful men. But powerful men come on a spectrum of ability and goodness, and there are plenty who are one or the other or some compromise between the 2. Oh and let's not forget that Cat also dared to "meddle" in politics, with disastrous results and has also gone mad before she died.

All the bigots who prevented female succession in the history books are proven right, because Dany is worse than Maegor the cruel and Mad Aerys combined! This despite women dragonriders in FaB not even getting enough clout or inspiring enough fear to have much of a say in governance and war or to stop male nobles from trying to force them into marriages. But Dany having dragons that are just about 2 years old is being treated like she has a nuclear bomb, when not even Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar were that. 

Sansa is still just 13 in the books and is rather far from the point of becoming a significant power - not to mention that since she is very much about _soft_ power, it really doesn't make sense for her to come into her own until she is several years older and has time to build up her influence network. So far, she has mostly been just a window into the doing of other people. The whole QiTN thing also doesn't seem believable book-wise - IMHO it was a desperate face-saving manouevre on the part of the show. 

BTW the world isn't going to be broken and remade, after all, so that Westeros maybe finally moves towards the Renaissance, due to the combination of a huge die-off and the eastern influences that preserved the heritage of a previous great civilization. No, it is the same old, same old, only slightly dinged, with the feudal nobility firmly in power, the family that is 8K old back on top, etc. And this is supposed to be a satisfying ending?! It seems like the change from sociological story-telling to psychological, as adressed in the excellent article in Scientific American wasn't just a show thing, but very much a book thing too. In fact, sociological story-telling was only ever there to camouflage the strings of a very traditional story, with the only surprise being the Fisher King instead of Arthur getting to be the "good ruler" in the end. But never Morgan Le Fay, that would be a step too far.

This ending belongs together with such jewels of GRRM's original series outline as "forbidden passion" between Jon and Arya, Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle, evil King Jaime sacking Winterfell, etc. Though at least there Bran would have been an adult, who had been ruling for years, before Dany even showed up.

 

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Posted (edited)

I think GRRM said that for the side characters the ending won't be the same but for the main ones? Yes, the same ending which sucks.

I suppose everyone is sick and tired to hear about Aragorn's tax policy but I always came back to this when I tried to understand who will end up on the throne. And Bran ain't it, sorry. He's a kid with the bare minimun of education who spent his time in thr North isolated from civilisation but he ends up king because....magic? Really? That's the best GRRM can do? Magic fixes everything? I would expect this kind of "Mary Sue" in your run of the mill fantasy book but not ASOIAF.

I don't think in mad Dany but dark Dany, definitely. Dark Dany that might imply a mad Dany in the future (kind of like her father). She just won't have the time to get there since she'll probably die before she goes mad.

Sansa as queen is fanservice without doubt. Her whole arc is in the south, she learns how to play the game the southern way (so to speak). Her ending with the North, as queen or Warden is nonsensical since she's there is Robb's will that implies she's even desinherited. Also, as a woman she'll have to marry so no stark ruling at he end.

Jon ending at the Wall again could happen since most think he'll end up king. GRRM will most definitely flip the finger to his readers here and fuck Jon over, especially since he'll probably spend some more time building him up just to crush hom down again.

Tyrioj should just die, honestly but I doubt it. So hand to the king he'll be.

Don't even know where he wants to go with Arya so probably we'll get Dora the Explorer.

I got lazy with the last characters but I'm kinda done with this series. There will be looooong years until the last book appears so I'll probably pick it up again after it is finished. Probably. Most likely not...

If it's finished...

 

Edited by Ruki88

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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2019 at 11:51 PM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

But I don't think Daenerys is going crazy. She'll have the Stannis story where she has to pick between what she wants and innocent lives. She'll make the wrong choice.

:agree:

Excellent point. D&D made Dany "crazy" because they're talentless hacks and that's the easier path to take. And because they sneer at themes as only suitable for 8th grade book reports.

I don't believe that book-Dany will be "crazy" at all. I think one of GRRM's main themes (eff off, D&D!) is that our choices make our fates, not our parentage or whatever.

I believe in the books Dany's journey will reflect (partially) Theon's story after he returned to the Iron Islands. He had many opportunities to choose between an incredibly bad option and a less-incredibly bad (but still bad) option and consistently picked the more-bad one. Because he had locked himself into a specific view of himself, just as Dany has.

(And yes, I know that Theon eventually went insane; I don't think Dany's story will parallel his to that extent. Just to the extent of her having to make choices that will eventually lead to her destruction, Greek-tragedy-wise.)

So I don't think she will end up "crazy". She will end up as a tragedy; she will likely be killed, but it will be painful and sad. All the more so because it will really have been necessary.

I'm definitely interested in reading that.

Edited by The Ned's Little Girl
left out a word

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On 5/22/2019 at 11:58 AM, Municipal Engines said:

Do you all seriously think he's actually going to make Bran king?

There's a good post on the ASOIAF subreddit about how the Bran as Fisher King theory was probably right

 

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Posted (edited)
I realized how badly I have been duped by the author. People mostly blame DnD for this mess, but I genuinely think that much of the blame lies with GRRM. Yes, DnD are hacks that butchered the execution, but I ask the question if the story ideas they had been given to adapt were all that great to begin with. If we take on face value that the ending of the main characters remains the same, then we have to deal with KING BRAN and JON KILLS DANY WTF ending.
 
First, KING BRAN. For the life of me, I cannot imagine how GRRM intends to write a satisfying conclusion with Bran as the final ruler. Bran is: 1, disabled (I don't care, but Westerosi society does), 2, a child (at the time of ADwD he's like 10 at most, isn't he? how old he can be by the end of it all? 13?), 3, in the cave in the middle of nowhere, 4, so far he's had no learning-to-lead arc (aside of the couple of chapters in ACoK when he's "the Stark in Winterfell", but that hardly counts as actual experience either in governing or leadership), 5, he has no claim to 5 of the Southron kingdoms.
 
I fail to envision how the hell does the author mean to get to this endgame in a convincing manner?! He'd have a hard time of it if he were planning on writing another 10 books, not to mention 2! It's clear as day that he has completely lost control of his story.
 
I see only three options, none of them easy to make believable:
 
1, Bran will learn the ability to skinchange or mind-manipulate people, and he will make them to choose him for their king somehow.... and then mindwipe them completely to keep them complacent with his rule for their entire lives. It is true that GRRM loves his body-snatcher stories. but the problem is that what works in short fiction horror stories may not work oh-so-well in a fantasy epic such as ASoIaF. As I see it, this idea just doesn't fit the rest of the story. 
 
2, Bran's skills are instrumental in the Long Night and he demonstrates it publicly enough to make masses believe he's the avatar of the old gods and that they are the right gods to follow, which results in their overcoming their disgust and distrust towards wargs and magicians to accept Bran as the God-Emperor of Dune.
I... guess that's a possible outcome, but, again, almost impossibly difficult to pull off convincingly. I can't quite imagine that many nobles (or commoners) would be comfortable with the idea of an omnipotent superwarg that can spy on them all the time, who can see into past, who can enter and manipulate their dreams etc. Even if they're not aware of the full extent of his powers, they would try to kill the creepy boy as soon as possible. 
 
However, what bothers me even more is... what the hell happened to GRRM's proclaimed intention to explore what makes a wise and just ruler? Will we ever see Bran to deal with taxation? As of ADwD, he hasn't been in the position to learn or show any leadership qualities, and I presume that he won't get down to it in TWoW either. Are we just going have to assume that Bloodraven will give him necessary theoretical education and Bran then pops out of nowhere in the final book to put all the tried leaders to shame? I mean, that's exactly what Varys has been trying to do with the Young Griff, but most readers don't buy it will work. Unless we see him learning by experience, how can we be sure that he will make the right decisions when put under pressure? I guess he would be able to google the weirwoodnet to watch what others have been saying/doing, which might be some help in decision-making.
 
So, that's the answer GRRM gives his readership regarding wise and just kingship? No one's good enough unless they are an omniscient bodysnatcher? Oh WOW, how deep (/sarcasm).
 
It's cheating. Bran wouldn't be either particularly wise or just, he'd only have excellent means to spy at other people and it wouldn't guarantee he would be able to act accordingly on the gained information. As the Hand of the King, Bloodraven had a similar spy network, but people still loathed him and schemed against Aerys I. 
 
By the end of the story, Bran's got to have gone through leadership experience much like Jon or Dany to make his kingship satisfying. Otherwise he's no better that Aragorn, who rules justly and wisely just because. But I don't see where GRRM wants to find time for it. 
 
And now... MAD QUEEN DANY and JON KILLS DANY. Or better said, Dany's story as a whole. If her show ending is anything to go by, it's shaping to become of the most nihilistic and depressing characters arcs that I have ever read. 
 
I've always had issues with GRRM's portrayal of women wielding political power. Let's overview major female characters with political power so far:
 
Catelyn - in the beginning utterly breaks down due to Bran's coma. She couldn't possibly care less about being a regent appointed by her husband. She snaps out of it only after her son talks some sense into her. Her second breakdown is much slower, but it is also caused by grief and fear for her children's lives. Seeing her last child murdered, she goes insane and starts tearing her own face. Then she return as a zombie hellbent on a terrible vengeance.
 
Lysa - the lady regent of the Vale of Arryn - her loveless marriage and repeated miscarriages had riven her to become unstable, treacherous and petty. Ends up murdered by the man she had loved her entire life and who had only used her in return.
 
Cersei - a malignant narcissist with growing paranoid tendencies that gets turned on by watching stuff burn. She's growing more unstable as she's losing her children, although it is debatable if she values the children or the power they represent. Prophecied to be killed by the valoquar, presumably her brother/lover Jaime.
 
In his fake his history, there's one more female ruler described in a greater detail: Rhaenyra. The Realm's Delight (ugh) that turns into Maegor with Teats (eww). She's also a member of GRRM's club of women that start making questionable decisions as they start losing their kids. Although she had been her father's chosen heir, the historians consider her a false queen and not even her sons bother to rehabilitate her reputation.
 
I am definitely seeing a theme there. Compare all these female characters to Davos, who has already lost most of his sons. It speaks for itself. 
 
Speaking of historical Targaryen women... what was the point of that tematic thread of their getting shafted in favor of their male counterparts? First there's Alysanne fighting for equal primogeniture for the sake of her daughter Daenerys (I guess that GRRM was trolling us with the whole "Daenerys will make a great queen!" thing) and later for her granddaughter Rhaenys the Queen who Never Was. Rhaenyra. Daena the Defiant gets passed over. There's some 150 years in which Targaryen women are treated little better than broodmares...
.... until here comes Daenerys Stormborn, the last scion of House Targaryen, surely she's going to make up for it, surely she's going to show that Westeros thar a woman can be brave, strong and clever enough to act as a queen regnant? She doesn't have to rule as long as Elizabeth II, but only as long as to help Westeros get through the Long Night? 
 
Well, unfortunately it appears that Daenerys isn't there to vindicate all the unfairly shafted female claimants. Apparently, she's there to confirm that women on the Iron Throne are Not Meant To Be. 
 
From what can be gleaned from the show, she will get shafted in favor of a male relative (this time a fake one, to add insult to the injury, because in the books it isn't going to be Jon Snow, but the Young Griff). That's not the truly unpleasant part. What took me unpleasantly by surprise is that she will never get to raise above her darker side. 
 
For the start let me say that I've always deeply identified with Dany's character. She's a feminine girl who wants to change world for the better. She's also a young abuse victim in the men's world, she has no protectors and no mentors. Her family has got history of mental illness, but she hopes to avoid that fate.
 
Yes, she's got no experience, so she makes mistakes. Yes, it's true that she has a temper. Yes. it's true she can be ruthless. She hypes herself up.
 
And I thought Martin understood that. In one of D&E stories, the character of Rohanne Webber explains how a woman in this world has got to be twice as decisive and aggressive as any man if she wants to be taken seriously at all.
 
Well, ain't that twice the truth for Dany, for someone who set out to bring a great societal change in Slaver's Bay, for someone who aspires to become Queen?
I thought that for a time she will get a little too comfortable with the darker aspects of her character, but ultimately overcome it and find peace.
 
I also thought that she will find what she missed the most in Jon Snow. She's always believed herself to be the last Targaryen, all alone in the world. OTOH Jon could have discovered the other side of his heritage, the one that has been kept from him, although he think it's only the confirmation that his mother sold sex.
 
But what do we get instead of that? Apparently, he kills her because she's too brutal, too unhinged, too cray cray. It could have been so beautiful, but instead the author decided that nothing good will come out of it. Tell me that is not nihilistic.
 
Yeah, a heroic man has to kill an ambitious, powerful woman to save the world/bring balance to the Force. WOW how original and subversive!
 
Compare that to guys such as Tyrion, who can fall as low as they wish. Tyrion gets to make singers into stew, knowingly support an illegitimate and horrible king, pull stuff like the antler men or wildfire, threaten with rape and actually rape enslaved women etc. etc. But he gets to survive, live in luxury, and exercise power as the Hand of the King. How sweet to be a man, how sweet.
And of course, Jon survives as well, although he's a revenant.
 
Dany gets to be killed by her last family and boyfriend in one person.
 
In ADwD Tyrion says something along the lines that life no matter how miserable is full of possibilities, while death is so sadly final.
 
After I found out about the show's ending, I took out my old copy of AGoT and flipped through it. There's no question that at the start of the series Dany's life sucked most out of all the major characters. Yes, Jon was a sort of an outsider, but his adoptive father and siblings loved him. Yes, Tyrion was terribly abused by his father and sister, but his brother loved him and the extended family accepted him. What did Dany have? A brother that kept pinching her nipples and calling her a whore? Fear of being killed in her bed by assassins? Uncertainty as to how she will survive with no income and no skills?
 
I keep wondering what was the point of her story? If it.s that power corrupts and the road to hell is paved with good intentions, then he truly couldn't have picked a better character to demonstrate it? How many female characters are out there that aren't tomboys, but lead armies, wield great political power, have ambitions and aspirations beyond protecting their family, who dare to have sex without falling in love, who have a darker streak, butbut still retain empathy for the downtrodden?
 
Sadly, there isn't so many of them. Dany used to be one of the bunch, before she had been made into another unreasonle, ambitious, evil Morgana just like so many female characters before her. She's gone from a unique grey character straight to a tired misogynistic trope.
 
Martin should perhaps take a couple of lessons from Sapkowski. Sapkowski's The Witcher may not offer as complex worldbuilding and plotlines, but at least he finished it with a believable, yet bittersweet and unexpected conclusion. His female characters wield hold immense power as queens and sorceresses, they can be ruthless and manipulate and display any number of other bad qualities, but the narrative doesn't judge them for it any harsher than their male colleagues, and none of them becomes unhinged because she lost her kids or power got into her head. That's not to say that those books don't have flaws (for one, the portrayal of male homosexuality is.... lacking), but at least Sapkowski has managed to give his creation a satisfying ending.
 
So, instead of the neverending waiting for ASoIaF, I'm going to look for more stories like The Witcher. Martin can go eat rust.
 
(Yes, I created an account on this site only to make this rant, and yes, it made me feel much better.)
 
 
Edited by Kristule

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I don't see any reason the show should cause me to view the books in a negative light. As of book 5, the show had diverged from the books quite a lot. I have seen articles where GRRM said the show and books will end the same, but I have seen as many articles saying the opposite.

Even if the books end the same as the show, the book will arrive at that ending differently, so I am very much looking forward to the books and really, really he does actually finish them.

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Not to go off topic but Martin can't be in good health. I wouldn't be certain of getting the last books out of him.(though if he dies I'm sure who ever inherits his IP will sell it to someone to finish). 

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35 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Not to go off topic but Martin can't be in good health. I wouldn't be certain of getting the last books out of him.(though if he dies I'm sure who ever inherits his IP will sell it to someone to finish). 

He has specifically said that if he dies before finishing it, no one is to complete his work. 

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Seeing as I've been saying Dany will be a force for evil in the end since basically before the show, and I still think the books will do the same, no. They're just confirmation of what I already "knew". Ideally I would've not seen seasons 5+ when they started going beyond the books, but there was no helping it, and the nature of the internet (unfortunately) does not allow one to avoid spoilers for as long as it'll take Martin to finish the books.

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To answer the OPs question as someone who hasn't read them I will say this:

The failure of the show to end in a way I consider consistent and respectful to many of its fans reiterates the reality that this is not our story and ultimately reminds me that the only thing we can really effect is our own.

In other words, it saved me from wasting time on the books which I will use for something better. I'm glad someone reads them though since who else would write the Wikipedia summary? 

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On 5/22/2019 at 9:58 AM, Municipal Engines said:

Do you all seriously think he's actually going to make Bran king

Yes, of course.  Absolutely.  You can see it plain as day just by reading chapter one from book one, let alone the rest.

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I think the books will still be a success if they’re published. But, I do think a lot of Dany fans and people interested in the Game of Thrones might be turned away by the “Dany goes mad with power” and “Bran the Broken”. It has certainly harmed the IP and it’s image; which does translate into hurting book sales. Not that it really matters as they will sell like hotcakes.

I think people interested in the Others, can reasonably expect him to do that better. Iam imagining the Last Battle from WoT in terms of scale and scope. He couldn’t in all seriousness have this grand several book threat fizzle out at Winterfell.

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19 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I think the books will still be a success if they’re published. But, I do think a lot of Dany fans and people interested in the Game of Thrones might be turned away by the “Dany goes mad with power” and “Bran the Broken”. It has certainly harmed the IP and it’s image; which does translate into hurting book sales. Not that it really matters as they will sell like hotcakes.

I think people interested in the Others, can reasonably expect him to do that better. Iam imagining the Last Battle from WoT in terms of scale and scope. He couldn’t in all seriousness have this grand several book threat fizzle out at Winterfell.

To be perfectly honest if it seems to me that Season 7 and 3 episodes of season 8 will probably be the winds of winter. Which means these dunderheads covered a dream of spring, an entire novel in 3 episodes. I am pretty sure with 3000 pages of material Martin could make it believable. If anything, this disastrous ending will increase book sales as people would want to see how it happened his way. 

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