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Nerevanin

Did Bran know all the time he is the future king?

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Bran's whole character needed to be handled in a better way, he makes no sense. Won't be easy for GRRM to make "King" Bran work well, in the show it was a dumb twist with no build up. Not to mention Bran has been an emotionless robot for the past few seasons, they didn't even develop

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18 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

Bran's powers were never properly explained but he had a vision of Drogon flying over the KL so I suppose he sees the future or glimpses of future too. What really struck me was his line "Why do think you I came all this way?" Does this mean that Bran knew all this time that he would become the king? Did he gently manipulated the other characters to end up in this position?

I posted my thoughts on this in another related thread but here’s how I see it:

Judging by his comment to Tyrion, I do think Bran knew he would be king. At what point he knew this is unclear though. It may be that several other characters had to make pivotal decisions (namely Dany deciding to burn KL and Jon deciding to kill Dany) before Bran's future was revealed to him. His powers to see the future seem to be less reliable than seeing the past and the present (which may be why he only see brief flashes rather than concrete scenes), presumably because there are a lot of factors (like individuals' autonomy) that can change how the future will play out. Since Dany did not seem to make the decision to burn KL until right before she did it, it seems plausible that Bran would not be able to see what she was going to do until she herself decided. Same thing with Jon killing Dany. 

I do not think Bran was manipulating his way to be king, and I don't think he possesses any sort of evil or selfish intentions - neutral seems to be best word to describe him. As the three-eyed raven, he is void of desire and ambition. He even stated that he didn't want to rule - accepting the crown seemed to me like he was just accepting how his fate turned out. I do not think that Bran uses his visions to meddle with future events or achieve any personal objectives (which I don’t think he even has). He seems to be a very passive character, content to let whatever is going to happen happen, and allowing people to make their own decisions. These decisions then impact how the future plays out. Yes, Bran told Jon about his true identity, but ultimately left it up to Jon to decide whether to tell anyone else. Jon made his choice (as did Sansa, and then Tyrion, and then Varys), so I do not think Bran is to blame for the cascade of the events that followed. 

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19 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

Bran's powers were never properly explained but he had a vision of Drogon flying over the KL so I suppose he sees the future or glimpses of future too. What really struck me was his line "Why do think you I came all this way?" Does this mean that Bran knew all this time that he would become the king? Did he gently manipulated the other characters to end up in this position?

I think that Bran (the 3ER) did know and did manipulate the other characters.  And others that we never knew.

His comment to Jon pretty much sews it up to me - "You were exactly where you needed to be".

There were the glances he kept giving the characters in Winterfell, esp Tyrion.  Now we know why he stared at Tyrion.

And also we can perhaps see why the timing of revealing Jon's real parentage was important.  Which I see was commented on by others.

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8 hours ago, Daemos said:

Bran had the audacity to tell Jon that it was his choice whether to tell Sansa and Arya about his parents. FUCK OFF! Bran is a monster disguised as a cripple!

I hope he's actually not Bran but Bloodraven so that at the very least, A Targ still sits on the Throne because fuck the Starks!

Isaac says it's Bran just with extra memories smashed into his head.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

I think that Bran (the 3ER) did know and did manipulate the other characters.  And others that we never knew.

His comment to Jon pretty much sews it up to me - "You were exactly where you needed to be".

There were the glances he kept giving the characters in Winterfell, esp Tyrion.  Now we know why he stared at Tyrion.

And also we can perhaps see why the timing of revealing Jon's real parentage was important.  Which I see was commented on by others.

When he said that to Jon, I was waiting for some sinister minor notes in the background music, a sudden blue glint in his eyes, and then some monologuing:

BRAN: Marvellous creatures, dragons, aren't they? Do you think that miserable oaf Ned would've sent you to the Wall if I hadn't suggested it? Do you think Patchface would've told Dany to open the egg underwater if I hadn't told him first myself? Do you think Samwell Tarly, the witless wonder, could've provided you with your true parentage if I hadn't given him the book that led him straight to it? Huh?!? 

JON: It was you from the beginning. You put my name in the Goblet of Ice and Fire. You bewitched Tyrion, but…

BRAN: "But but..." You won because l made it so, Jon. You ended up in the Red Keep today because it was meant to be so. And now the deed is done. The blood that runs through your veins will end forever. Imagine how the Great Other will reward me when he learns that I have once and for all destroyed the Targaryens. Yes, Jon, you were exactly where you needed to be..."

Edited by Davidlopan

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14 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

I’ve been wondering if we’re all supposed to have seen this as a plot by Bran to actually have Tyrion rule, with Bran as figurehead only. To what end, who knows.  

I cant think of any other reason (besides just crappy writing, which is probably the real reason)that the episode was so pointedly and obviously Tyrion-heavy. He dominates nearly the entire episode. 

It can also be not Bran's plan but D&D's plan. Tyrion is GRRM's favorite, fan favorite and probably also D&D favorite. I myself predicted years ago that it would be Tyrion who ends on the throne when all is set and done. Making Bran the king may be a way to avoid this predictability (similar to "we made Arya kill the NK 'cause Jon would be too predictable") but still get the "right" end because Tyrion ends up being the Hand and we can assume that it will be he who makes the most decisions.

12 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I must have brain worm. I realized on second watch that Bran said he went to kings landing to become king.

This is exactly the line why I made this thread. If Bran didn't say it, there wouldn't be a problem.

 

11 hours ago, Knugen said:

I made my theory that the Night King actually wanted to kill Bran, specifically Bran because he knew Bran and the 3ER was evil and corrupt. For all we know, the Night King might not have been that bad. 

I'm making up my own theory because this shows incompetent writers cant give me a pure answer. But he does say "Why do you think i'm here" or w/e he says in combination with the times he actually did see the future, it makes me think that he might actually have planned this all along and was the MAIN player of The game of thrones. 

He was the downfall of Littlefinger too "Chaos is a ladder." He knew how to play the game because he had seen how it has been played in the past up to the point of Dany coming and perhaps before that and perhaps constantly keeping an eye(raven) on them all. 

They say he cant have children and that's good. But we also don't really know how long he will be alive. It could be for thousands of years for all we know. 

Perhaps he wants to find the dragon too, because he doesn't have an army and being able to warg the dragon from a far distance, would give him a something better than an army. And if he is taken over by Bloodraven, he is a bastard Targ inside the body of a stark (ICE AND FIRE).

The only thing I cant see, is what he would want to do while on the throne. What would his purpose be? But they did say that "Bran died inside that cave." So.... I don't know. It's what some people I guess have already thought of and I honestly don't think Dumb & Dumber thought of it in this way. But if this is the ending GRRM wants, then perhaps this is exactly what it will be played out as.   

Yeah. That line "Why do you think I came here?" completely changed the perspective of Bran. Or has the potential to change it based on how you interpret it. If you interpret it as that Bran, the emotionless robot-tree, suddenly throws arond jokes (there is another one when he leaves the small council and says "I'm sure the way you cheer for me will get better."), it's straight up bad writing. But you can also interpret it as that Bran is evil to an extent and a schemer and he manipulated all the characters to be "where they are supposed to be" so he becomes the king. The question is why? Because he was denied the chance to be a knight as he always wanted, so now takes the crown as a consolation prize? Or because the NK mark infected him with evil and he is on the way to be transformed into the next NK? Or does he know that all the other candidates for king / queen would do a much worse job than him?

I think that it would be a cool plottwist if we found out at the end that Bran is in fact evil, he played everyone and he plans something bad.

 

9 hours ago, a girl knows nothing said:

I posted my thoughts on this in another related thread but here’s how I see it:

Judging by his comment to Tyrion, I do think Bran knew he would be king. At what point he knew this is unclear though. It may be that several other characters had to make pivotal decisions (namely Dany deciding to burn KL and Jon deciding to kill Dany) before Bran's future was revealed to him. His powers to see the future seem to be less reliable than seeing the past and the present (which may be why he only see brief flashes rather than concrete scenes), presumably because there are a lot of factors (like individuals' autonomy) that can change how the future will play out. Since Dany did not seem to make the decision to burn KL until right before she did it, it seems plausible that Bran would not be able to see what she was going to do until she herself decided. Same thing with Jon killing Dany.

I admit that all this time stuff is a bit too complicated for my brain but I remember that when I was asking about how it is possible that the Bran in S1 knows Hodor saying "hodor" when it is Bran's future self who goes to the past and causes Hodor to become Hodor, I was told that the time is like a river. The way the river flows is set and cannot be changed and Bran is just allowed to walk on the banks of the river and watch the flow. The fact that Bran saw in his vision in S4 Drogon flying over KL, Cersei burning the Sept and Jon fighting with WW (iirc) seems to support this theory. If this is true, the crucial decisions wouldn't play any role because everything is already predetermined. I'm not saying I believe or not believe it, I just wanted to share it.

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Posted (edited)

In episode three I already posted this:

On 5/7/2019 at 6:54 PM, Deminelle said:

Tyrion and Bran talking... made me wonder when Tyrion suggested that Bran as a trueborn son of Ned Stark would be the Lord of Winterfell, then realized Bran doesn't want it.

Bran said he doesn't really want it... anymore

Maybe he aims for higher now.

Bran and Tyrion were talking in front of a fireplace.

In this last episode when Jon says to Bran in their final scene: "I'm sorry I wasn't there when you needed me."

Bran's answer: "You were exactly were you were supposed to be."

At least I'd like to think that Bran ultimately played them all in the end. Many people got killed but the Stark family members survived.

He was perhaps able to effect on things so that the end result was him getting the crown.

I wish they had made a clear ending to show this way. Make the viewers realize it, but not the characters themselves.

Edited by Deminelle

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Fucking time travel and prophecy tropes man! Determinism and puppetry.

A definite yes, he said it "Why do you think I came here". He says all the time, "you are where you are supposed to be". He is shill and relaxed even in front of the NK.

You could say like in Dune and others that he thought this was the best outcome and he interfered only as much as to guarantee it, in secret. Not original at all.

Danny had a vision too, of a better future but of course to make an omelette you have to break some eggs now. Long term net gain and paradise. How many died in Bran's vision of the future.

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15 hours ago, a girl knows nothing said:

I posted my thoughts on this in another related thread but here’s how I see it:

Judging by his comment to Tyrion, I do think Bran knew he would be king,.....

I agree with your take on it...
Do you remember those "choose your own adventure" story books for kids... ? lol
I kinda imagine it like Bran has skipped ahead and read all the back pages but has to mostly stay out of it and let other people make the choices... and the more their actions unfold, the clearer the future gets...

But he does look rather smug in the end scenes, like he's seen it coming a long time... and I couldn't help remember Littlefingers pretty prophetic "Chaos is a ladder"....  chaos is absolutely the route that lead to Bran becoming king.
 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2019 at 10:05 AM, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

How can 1 million people being nuked be good for humanity ?  or did he do it because he is an agent of the cotf who hate mankind for nearly making them extinct. guess he is a good insurance policy.

Well .... "the good of the many outweigh those of the few, or the one". 

And it isn't 'nuked', it is 'fire-bombed'.  Dresden (1945).  Not Hiroshima.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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On 5/20/2019 at 11:21 AM, Nerevanin said:

Two different interpretations:

1) burning 1M people => Dany's death => more millions of people saved because Dany can't "liberate" them anymore

2) burning 1M people => Dany's death => Jon is sent to the Wall => Bran gets elected as the king.

The first interpretation makes Bran look more or less like a good guy who knew it was necessary to allow some victims in order to stop more carnage and to make the world a better place. The second one, however, portrays Bran as a calculating selfish manipulator who sacrificed all those people just for his personal gian.

Unless Bran as King can save even more people and rebuild a devastated realm.  So maybe 1) and 2) go together.

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12 hours ago, Dragonslack said:

Fucking time travel and prophecy tropes man! Determinism and puppetry.

A definite yes, he said it "Why do you think I came here". He says all the time, "you are where you are supposed to be". He is shill and relaxed even in front of the NK.

You could say like in Dune and others that he thought this was the best outcome and he interfered only as much as to guarantee it, in secret. Not original at all.

Danny had a vision too, of a better future but of course to make an omelette you have to break some eggs now. Long term net gain and paradise. How many died in Bran's vision of the future.

But Bran has the 10,000 year view, from being the 3ER.  A perspective Dany could never have.

To turn it around a bit, maybe the 3ER needed to break some eggs to make that omelette  Very long-term gain and paradise.

How many died for Dany's vision of the uncertain future?  One that would never have outlasted her life?

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12 hours ago, Dragonslack said:

You could say like in Dune and others that he thought this was the best outcome and he interfered only as much as to guarantee it, in secret. Not original at all.

And?

Why does it matter being original?  Nothing is really 'original'.

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22 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Isaac says it's Bran just with extra memories smashed into his head.

Yep.  Some of memories would be Bloodraven's memories.

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The real answer to the OP's question is that we have no idea, because the show didn't even give us enough information for meaningful speculation on the answer. Bran remains a complete cipher to the end, except now he is His Grace King Cipher.

I suspect the writers just put that line in his dialogue because it sounded cute and had the extra added bonus that it might lead people to infer some meaning of their own onto Bran's arc. Which is the only way that arc will ever be even halfway explained. 

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On 5/21/2019 at 6:42 AM, Tywin Tytosson said:

I think that Bran (the 3ER) did know and did manipulate the other characters.  And others that we never knew.

His comment to Jon pretty much sews it up to me - "You were exactly where you needed to be".

The finale left me pretty confused about Bran's intentions. Him saying "You were exactly where you needed to be" gave me the impression that he was manipulative, and the charracters were pawns in his game of chess, I don't know if the writers intended that or left this ambiguous at purpose or if this was just bad writing. 

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On 5/21/2019 at 6:04 PM, Dragonslack said:

A definite yes, he said it "Why do you think I came here". He says all the time, "you are where you are supposed to be". He is shill and relaxed even in front of the NK.

 

I forgot about how he reacted to meeting NK in Ep3. When I saw it, I thought that there was something important going on, the exchange of looks and facial expressions of Bran and the NK was very interesting. At the time I interpreted it as "NK: We meet again, 3EC. Imma kill you. Bran: Yes we  meet again. But you're going to die with me today. NK: WUT?? ... Shut up, you lil brat, and prepare to die. *ninja Arya jumps in*"

Considering Bran's actions in Ep6, I would interpret the mental conversation like this now: "NK: We meet again, 3EC, and Imma kill you. Bran: Yes, we meet again. But it's you who's going to die today, not me. NK: WTF?? ... I'll make sure it's you who dies today. *ninja Arya jumps in*".

 

9 hours ago, MarieAntoinette said:

The finale left me pretty confused about Bran's intentions. Him saying "You were exactly where you needed to be" gave me the impression that he was manipulative, and the charracters were pawns in his game of chess, I don't know if the writers intended that or left this ambiguous at purpose or if this was just bad writing. 

Yeah. Until the final episode, all the "you were where you needed to be" seemed like something positive, as if Bran was saying "you were elsewhere and that was the best thing you could do, think about all the good things you did there". But after the final episode, it's more like "you were where I needed you to be, chaos is a ladder and I f**king climbed it!"

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Why did Bran keep saying he's something else now for so long but when Tyrion proposes him for king he's all of a sudden Brandon Stark now? 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2019 at 8:49 AM, Brendan Hughes said:

He didn't know anything. Bran is just being the ultimate troll now. His answer to anyone's questions will always be these vague ambiguous answers always hinting he knew whatever it was being asked or when... said always with a straight, dead face (internally though he is trolololololololing)

daenerys: "i iNtEnD 2 bReAk tHe wHeEL!"

[gets usurped by a guy on wheels]

Edited by the red god

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We seem to be ignoring the idea that Brann need have only asked Arya and Sansa to kill Daenarys at any time and it would have been done.  He knew and elected the path that was taken and managed to get some major players (Jon, Varys, Jaime, +?) out of the way in the process.  We start to have to have discussions about determinism or free will if we go too far down this path.  If Daenarys was the only thing between Brann and the throne there were far easier ways to eliminate her. 

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