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The North is finally independent

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58 minutes ago, Mystical said:

*sigh* No one MADE Dany do anything. No one is responsible for how Dany reacts given the circumstances she found herself in. Well Dany is and she kind of went over board by HERSELF. The only thing you could argue is that the 3ER used Dany's obvious weaknesses against her to achieve his goal. But the 3ER doesn't reward his puppets (see Jon or Arya) so what makes you think he'd make exceptions like Sansa?

The 3ER might be constantly tripping out doing nothing like a stoner but he ain't stupid. Why on earth would he be dumb enough to tell people he can see the future? That would get him immediately off the list of candidates to rule. Because then even D&D characters, brain dead as they are, would ask: Why he let the wall fall? Why he didn't prevent more deaths during the LN battle? Why didn't he stop Dany from torching KL to SAVE LIVES? Why didn't he stop x war way back when? On and on...

The massacre at Kings Landing was Dany's fault mostly (Northern soldiers have a lesser part of the blame).

But, the reveal of Jon's parentage to Tyrion was intended to provoke trouble between Dany, her advisers and Jon.

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2 hours ago, Mystical said:

*sigh* No one MADE Dany do anything. No one is responsible for how Dany reacts given the circumstances she found herself in. Well Dany is and she kind of went over board by HERSELF. The only thing you could argue is that the 3ER used Dany's obvious weaknesses against her to achieve his goal. But the 3ER doesn't reward his puppets (see Jon or Arya) so what makes you think he'd make exceptions like Sansa?

Seems to me you argue everything and its opposite.

Do you agree Bran, through Sam / Jon / Sansa / Tyrion / Varys participated in Dany's descent into madness by revealing the big secret at just the right time ?

I'm not arguing she wouldn't have turned mad eventually, but the way it was depicted in the show that is what happened. Nobody made her burn KL, she made that choice on her own. But it was motivated by the behavior of all those around her. And started of by Bran (or the 3ER if you prefer).

As for the quoted part, it was mostly a joke, but who knows... we are not told who decided to give Sansa a crown in the show, she asked for it sure, but was it just agreed on the spot by Bran, and if so why ? So all bets are ok.

 

2 hours ago, Mystical said:

The 3ER might be constantly tripping out doing nothing like a stoner but he ain't stupid. Why on earth would he be dumb enough to tell people he can see the future? That would get him immediately off the list of candidates to rule. Because then even D&D characters, brain dead as they are, would ask: Why he let the wall fall? Why he didn't prevent more deaths during the LN battle? Why didn't he stop Dany from torching KL to SAVE LIVES? Why didn't he stop x war way back when? On and on...

Well that's my point. He didn't tell anyone, so no one will question the fact that he did nothing to prevent the events that transpired, answering to Rast-afari above me.

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1 hour ago, Jaghen said:

Well that's my point. He didn't tell anyone, so no one will question the fact that he did nothing to prevent the events that transpired, answering to Rast-afari above me.

At least the small "Great Council", which elected Bran, had to know some part of his story and abilities. Or else there would be no good reason to chose Bran and not for example Edmure. You simply have to ask the question "Why should anybody south of the Neck elect a young cripple from the North to be there king?". Nobody knows him (except maybe Lord Royce, the other Starks obviously and Sam and Brienne, who are no acting Lords and therefore shouldn't play a big role at that council; but the show is lazy and full of plotholes, so lets ignore that) and there are uncountably many other persons who they know better. Okay, he had a hard childhood, but thats no good reason. Bran being the Three-Eyed-Raven with all his powers would be the only reason to chose him. But on the other hand, who wants to have a liege lord, who can literally look at everything you did in the past?

As you can see, the show didn't deliver a plausible explanation for Bran becoming king (at least in my opinion). So, who knows.

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On 6/27/2019 at 3:02 PM, Mystical said:

The problem started way back when they didn't adapt the 'Grand Northern Conspiracy'. I don't mean in it's entirety. But just the fact that 'The North Remembers'. In the show the North had amnesia and that was precisely the problem. They didn't show northern lords besides the Boltons. And more importantly, there were no northern lords that let us know they remember the Starks in a positive light. There is a reason almost the entire North is scheming to get a Stark back into WF in the books. The Starks clearly did something right and well, you don't rule for thousands of years unless you are good at your job and your people stand behind you. But I don't think that D&D understand that, they love the dragons and Lannisters and Ramsey and that's pretty much it.

So when they don't show northern lords how can we know they want their independence? It becomes a 'tell, don't show' plot, like most of the later Seasons.

The Show Runners' explanation for Sansa's dislike for Dany is that "she's very pretty." (rolls eyes).

IMHO, there's a perfectly good reason for the political conflict between her and Dany, and it's based on a clash of outlooks.  Dany's view is that the Starks are her vassals, and she's their overlord.  They acknowledge her overlordship when Jon asks for protection against their enemies (the feudal bargain).  As far as she's concerned, she fulfilled her end of the bargain, when she marched North.  She's entitled to their fealty in return.

Sansa's view is that the North is an independent state seeking an alliance against a common enemy.  In return, the North will help her take Kings Landing.

Unfortunately, this is stuff we have to infer, rather than the series actually spelling it out.  

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

But, the reveal of Jon's parentage to Tyrion was intended to provoke trouble between Dany, her advisers and Jon.

It's only trouble because Dany wanted it to stay secret. Jon being the legitimate heir is THE TRUTH. No ifs, no buts. Under Westerosi laws of succession, which lets not forget stem partly from the Targs themselves, Jon was the heir of House Targ. How is that treason or trouble if it's the damn truth? Dany made it a big deal by wanting to keep it secret and not even considering marriage to solve the problem.

6 hours ago, Jaghen said:

Seems to me you argue everything and its opposite.

Do you agree Bran, through Sam / Jon / Sansa / Tyrion / Varys participated in Dany's descent into madness by revealing the big secret at just the right time ?

I'm not arguing everything and the opposite. It seems you don't see the difference. Dany is responsible for her actions alone. Just like everyone else is responsible for theirs. It doesn't matter what other people reveal or keep secret or plot...Dany burning down KL was HER decision and her doing. Just like the 3ER being responsible for KL as well, just in a different way. By knowing it would happen and not stopping it, in fact aiding in making it happen by revealing information when/how he knew it would make Dany respong in the way he needed her to. But that doesn't absolve Dany of her wrong doings. She hose to react the way she did to the events that unfolded this Season.

6 hours ago, Jaghen said:

As for the quoted part, it was mostly a joke, but who knows... we are not told who decided to give Sansa a crown in the show, she asked for it sure, but was it just agreed on the spot by Bran, and if so why ? So all bets are ok.

Well someone did decide to crown her queen and we know it wasn't Sansa. Since it was made clear in the dialogue that Sansa came down to KL in order to free Jon. And then later said 'they lost their King'. So Sansa apparently had planned to free Jon, continue to campaign for Northern Independence but Jon would be King if both of those conditions are achieved.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Show Runners' explanation for Sansa's dislike for Dany is that "she's very pretty." (rolls eyes).

IMHO, there's a perfectly good reason for the political conflict between her and Dany, and it's based on a clash of outlooks.  Dany's view is that the Starks are her vassals, and she's their overlord.  They acknowledge her overlordship when Jon asks for protection against their enemies (the feudal bargain).  As far as she's concerned, she fulfilled her end of the bargain, when she marched North.  She's entitled to their fealty in return.

Sansa's view is that the North is an independent state seeking an alliance against a common enemy.  In return, the North will help her take Kings Landing

That was in the show, flimsy as it was, especially when you consider previous Seasons. Jon being made KitN made no sense for the world GoT takes place in. It makes no sense for a feudal system and the laws of succession. D&D decided to make Jon KitN (probably because it will happen in the books) by disregarding the rules of this universe, which they have been doing since S5. Jon had no right to that Kingship and no one would be stupid enough to give it to him if this were in GRRM's aSoIaF world. So instead the North chose to adopt a more democratic approach ala Night's Watch and Ironborne. He didn't become King by succession, inheritance, a will, feudal system or even conquest. They literally voted Jon into office. So now you have to view the North through that lens. They voted Jon into office, disregarding everything about their world. Now leaders are voted for, period. So just because Jon decided to give up his title doesn't make Day the automatic ruler. The North didn't vote for her so as far as they are concerned, she is no one. The only reason they even address her as 'your grace' is because she has WMDs and a giant army and apparently doesn't know the new rules in the North. Not like Jon ever knows anything that he could tell Dany that would be helpful.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Mystical said:

It's only trouble because Dany wanted it to stay secret. Jon being the legitimate heir is THE TRUTH. No ifs, no buts. Under Westerosi laws of succession, which lets not forget stem partly from the Targs themselves, Jon was the heir of House Targ. How is that treason or trouble if it's the damn truth? Dany made it a big deal by wanting to keep it secret and not even considering marriage to solve the problem.

 

Marriage would be the obvious answer to this problem, (and one which I'm sure would have occurred to Daenerys if anyone half decent were writing the plot, especially as she turned down Daario in order to make an important dynastic marriage).  Or, if she were concerned about her barrenness, she could designate Jon her heir, in return for his publicly pleading fealty to her, and then he'll continue the Targaryen line

Varys' arguments against such a marriage are not remotely cogent (especially given that some European royalty did practice avuncular marriage). 

But, given we have to put up with a contrivance, what good reason does Sansa have to tell Tyrion?  Jon doesn't want to be King, and she wants the North to be independent.  Why should she worry about the Targaryen succession laws?

(That said, the whole idea of a secret annulment, and a secret remarriage is absurd anyway.  Marriages have to be witnessed, to be valid, precisely so that there can be no doubt whether they took place).

Edited by SeanF

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Varys did seem to believe Jon wasn't into his aunt, and he wasn't...he kept pulling away and distancing himself from her.

If the story ends with the end of the line and Jon/Dany tensions boiling over to the point where he kills her the books aren't going to have a marriage either. I anticipate Dany acting more and more irrational. Mass murder is always irrational anyway.

 

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It is not the North being independent that is a bad thing but how it was done. Jon should have been King or should have sulked in the north with Gendry as king.

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On 5 July 2019 at 12:12 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Varys did seem to believe Jon wasn't into his aunt, and he wasn't...he kept pulling away and distancing himself from her.

If the story ends with the end of the line and Jon/Dany tensions boiling over to the point where he kills her the books aren't going to have a marriage either. I anticipate Dany acting more and more irrational. Mass murder is always irrational anyway.

 

Dynastic marriages don't have to be about love.

That said, I think some of the Dany/Jon plot in the show will be Dany/Aegon in the books.

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6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Dynastic marriages don't have to be about love.

That said, I think some of the Dany/Jon plot in the show will be Dany/Aegon in the books.

Whatever happens GRRM doesn't want a Targaryen restoration so I'm sure he'll write the non-marriage plot more convincingly. Jon's bastard status probably comes up pre parentage reveal and then Jon not being culturally Targaryen is a factor after. Dany might also just not want to be a queen consort because Jon would be more popular.

I don't know why you have such a hard-on for these two to get married though, they are awful together. 

I expect fAegon to only be a factor to make Dany irritated about another Targaryen claimant with Jon. 

 

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Whatever happens GRRM doesn't want a Targaryen restoration so I'm sure he'll write the non-marriage plot more convincingly. Jon's bastard status probably comes up pre parentage reveal and then Jon not being culturally Targaryen is a factor after. Dany might also just not want to be a queen consort because Jon would be more popular.

I don't know why you have such a hard-on for these two to get married though, they are awful together. 

I expect fAegon to only be a factor to make Dany irritated about another Targaryen claimant with Jon. 

 

Two rival claimants for the throne marrying and consolidating their claims would seem to be a sensible political solution.

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On 7/4/2019 at 3:55 PM, SeanF said:

Marriage would be the obvious answer to this problem, (and one which I'm sure would have occurred to Daenerys if anyone half decent were writing the plot, especially as she turned down Daario in order to make an important dynastic marriage).  Or, if she were concerned about her barrenness, she could designate Jon her heir, in return for his publicly pleading fealty to her, and then he'll continue the Targaryen line

Well yeah. This is something people have been saying since S7. GET MARRIED. But sadly D&D just don't get the world and rules of aSoIaF. And they clearly wanted the drama, so even if it occurred to them, they would not have had Dany/Jon do the sensible thing or come up with lame ass reasons to shoot down any character who mentions it.

On 7/4/2019 at 3:55 PM, SeanF said:

But, given we have to put up with a contrivance, what good reason does Sansa have to tell Tyrion?  Jon doesn't want to be King, and she wants the North to be independent.  Why should she worry about the Targaryen succession laws?

Really? Sansa has stated her reasons ON SCREEN. What more do you need? Or are you one of those Sansa haters (who seem to be the only people who don't get it) that even if she states her reasons on screen, you don't believe it? For one, her reason here is the same reason she didn't want him to leave to Dragonstone last Season. The men in her family tend to die horribly when going south, which she has said in S7 and in her convo with Tyrion. Both times Jon was going South with no back-up and he made the same mistakes Ned and Robb did. Dany also hasn't legitimized (like Gendry) Jon and she doesn't seem willing to marry him. So Jon is very much a threat to Dany's throne and in danger from Dany and Sansa knows this. Whether Jon wants to be King or not doesn't matter. If it gets out he's the heir, people would clamor for a Westerosi on the throne (something Dany has said herself to Jon), not some foreign girl with an army of savages. And of course her second reason is Northern independence. Dany has shown that she is not even willing to discuss the topic. Having Jon on the throne might make that a possibility.

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3 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Two rival claimants for the throne marrying and consolidating their claims would seem to be a sensible political solution.

That also was the argument for Rhaenyra and Aegon II marrying. Hmmm wonder why that didnt work? Oh yeah, House T doesnt do the sensible thing.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Whatever happens GRRM doesn't want a Targaryen restoration

Which is regretable in the least. The Targaryens seemed a bit ahead of their time, encouraging building roads and clean cities, rulling together with their women, reading, passing better laws and so on. This was somewhat the curse of Daeny and Jon too. They tried to end slavery and failed or help the wildlings and get killed for it, but I think you are right: there’s not much room for progress in GRRM’s world. Killing, pillage, rape and distruction seem to be favoured. Maybe I’m just beeing bitter or toxic or whatever it’s called and if so, I apologize. 

Edited by hewman

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18 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Two rival claimants for the throne marrying and consolidating their claims would seem to be a sensible political solution.

But maybe not a sensible solution in GRRM's version. Or at least he would approach it differently.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/6/2019 at 7:17 PM, hewman said:

The Targaryens seemed a bit ahead of their time, encouraging building roads and clean cities, rulling together with their women, reading, passing better laws and so on.

Thats only one side of the coin. Yes. there were good Targaryen rulers, who did all these things. But there were almost as many bad rulers, who caused civil wars like the Dance of the Dragons, rebellions like the Blackfyre Rebellions by legitimating bastards on the verge of death. There were cruel rulers like Maegor, mad rulers like Aerys. pious rulers like Baelor, too, who did more harm than good.

On 7/6/2019 at 7:17 PM, hewman said:

They tried to end slavery and failed or help the wildlings and get killed for it, but I think you are right: there’s not much room for progress in GRRM’s world. Killing, pillage, rape and distruction seem to be favoured. Maybe I’m just beeing bitter or toxic or whatever it’s called and if so, I apologize. 

In the way the novels were written its clear that George doesn't favour killing, pillage, rape and destruction. I think a lot of people don't favour that. But that doesn't mean that those things don't happen (in the real world and the world George created). And its very difficult to change those things. Jon's short time of command and Dany's attempt to abolish slavery are examples of that. And they were told in a realistic, plausible way. That is how it is in the real world too. Fundamental changes aren't easily done and success isn't guaranteed.

Edited by Haskelltier

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On 7/6/2019 at 9:59 AM, Mystical said:

Well yeah. This is something people have been saying since S7. GET MARRIED. But sadly D&D just don't get the world and rules of aSoIaF. And they clearly wanted the drama, so even if it occurred to them, they would not have had Dany/Jon do the sensible thing or come up with lame ass reasons to shoot down any character who mentions it.

Really? Sansa has stated her reasons ON SCREEN. What more do you need? Or are you one of those Sansa haters (who seem to be the only people who don't get it) that even if she states her reasons on screen, you don't believe it? For one, her reason here is the same reason she didn't want him to leave to Dragonstone last Season. The men in her family tend to die horribly when going south, which she has said in S7 and in her convo with Tyrion. Both times Jon was going South with no back-up and he made the same mistakes Ned and Robb did. Dany also hasn't legitimized (like Gendry) Jon and she doesn't seem willing to marry him. So Jon is very much a threat to Dany's throne and in danger from Dany and Sansa knows this. Whether Jon wants to be King or not doesn't matter. If it gets out he's the heir, people would clamor for a Westerosi on the throne (something Dany has said herself to Jon), not some foreign girl with an army of savages. And of course her second reason is Northern independence. Dany has shown that she is not even willing to discuss the topic. Having Jon on the throne might make that a possibility.

If Sansa was worried for Jon’s life and thought him being a Targ could endanger it, then why would she blab about it to Tyrion? 

Seems really counterproductive.

She’s literally the reason “it gets out he’s the heir”. 

Dany was already blaming Varys’ betrayal on her.

What if Dany imprisioned Jon and flew north to kill her? What if Dany was  guarded better and Jon couldn’t kill her? What if she never nuked KL and Jon had no reason to kill her? What if Jon couldn’t bring himself to do it? What if Grey Worm killed Jon on the spot? What if Drogon did? What if the Dothraki go on a rampage (like they’re supposed to) and the situation becomes significantly worse?

There’s so many variables, Sansa needs to thank her lucky stars everything worked out as neatly as it did.

To be fair, I’m blaming this solely on D&D and not Sansa. It’s not her fault the writers made her come up with a dumb, OoC plan that under non-scripted circumstances would have a 1% chance of success.

Book Sansa will have both legit reasons for disliking Dany, and will have a much smarter plan that won’t rely on blind luck and the incompetence of others.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, King Wyman said:

If Sansa was worried for Jon’s life and thought him being a Targ could endanger it, then why would she blab about it to Tyrion? 

Seems really counterproductive.

It's like you didn't watch this Season AT ALL. Him being a legitimate Targ was a danger to Dany who wanted to rule the 7Ks. Did you miss the 1003342734734 scenes that dealt with this? So his life was in danger from Dany. So keeping his legitimacy secret was bad for Jon.

1 hour ago, King Wyman said:

She’s literally the reason “it gets out he’s the heir”. 

Dany was already blaming Varys’ betrayal on her.

It didn't get out because of Sansa and only Sansa. People have free will and choice (as much as 3ER allows anyway). 'Bran' chose to spill the secret and so did Sam. Dany chose to basically threaten Jon not to tell anyone and Jon chose to tell his 'sisters' anyway. Sansa chose to tell Tyrion. Tyrion chose to tell Varys. And Varys chose to send letters to the realm about the true heir. But only Sansa is at fault for the secret getting out? Your logic does not resemble Earth logic. And neither does Dany's.

 

1 hour ago, King Wyman said:

What if Dany imprisioned Jon and flew north to kill her? What if Dany was  guarded better and Jon couldn’t kill her? What if she never nuked KL and Jon had no reason to kill her? What if Jon couldn’t bring himself to do it? What if Grey Worm killed Jon on the spot? What if Drogon did? What if the Dothraki go on a rampage (like they’re supposed to) and the situation becomes significantly worse?

What if, what if, what if? Really? Ifs and maybes don't matter because they didn't happen. But lets play the game. People NOT knowing is what put Jon in danger. Dany knew and tried the secret from getting out for HER OWN GAIN. Since she didn't even entertain to marry him, share rule or abdicating to him (because in the line of succession she does come after him) or have him officially abdicate to her...Jon was screwed 3 ways from Sunday. Because he kept refusing her romantic advances and eventually her feelings for him would fade or turn to anger (which they did) and then there is nothing stopping her from taking him out. He is after all a direct threat to her rule. He is from Westeros, he's renowned, people take to him (god knows why) and he's from a House that's largely respected in Westeros. And again, his claim is superior to hers. And Dany knows all this. If you can't see how much danger Jon is in by this being kept secret, then you are as naive as Jon.

1 hour ago, King Wyman said:

There’s so many variables, Sansa needs to thank her lucky stars everything worked out as neatly as it did.

And Jon needs to thank his lucky stars that Dany didn't take the many opportunities she had to off him (or Bran/Sam for that matter). So what?

1 hour ago, King Wyman said:

To be fair, I’m blaming this solely on D&D and not Sansa. It’s not her fault the writers made her come up with a dumb, OoC plan that under non-scripted circumstances would have a 1% chance of success.

Of course Sansa is not to blame. She's a fictional character no matter how hard that concept is to grasp for this fandom who hate on a fictional character as if she's Hitler reborn. I don't ever discuss these characters as characters, I discuss them as I do the rest of the show...as plots. Because that's what they are, plot points. They aren't characters. So what's the point discussing them as if they are characters? What I stated in the post you quoted was PLOT, plain and simple. Plot that people chose to and continue to choose to ignore for their own fanfic versions of the show to keep their hate/love of certain characters alive. Which seems insane to me as they are not characters, there are no characters in a self-proclaimed 'plot driven' show.

Edited by Mystical

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mystical said:

It's like you didn't watch this Season AT ALL. Him being a legitimate Targ was a danger to Dany who wanted to rule the 7Ks. Did you miss the 1003342734734 scenes that dealt with this? So his life was in danger from Dany. So keeping his legitimacy secret was bad for Jon.

It didn't get out because of Sansa and only Sansa. People have free will and choice (as much as 3ER allows anyway). 'Bran' chose to spill the secret and so did Sam. Dany chose to basically threaten Jon not to tell anyone and Jon chose to tell his 'sisters' anyway. Sansa chose to tell Tyrion. Tyrion chose to tell Varys. And Varys chose to send letters to the realm about the true heir. But only Sansa is at fault for the secret getting out? Your logic does not resemble Earth logic. And neither does Dany's.

 

What if, what if, what if? Really? Ifs and maybes don't matter because they didn't happen. But lets play the game. People NOT knowing is what put Jon in danger. Dany knew and tried the secret from getting out for HER OWN GAIN. Since she didn't even entertain to marry him, share rule or abdicating to him (because in the line of succession she does come after him) or have him officially abdicate to her...Jon was screwed 3 ways from Sunday. Because he kept refusing her romantic advances and eventually her feelings for him would fade or turn to anger (which they did) and then there is nothing stopping her from taking him out. He is after all a direct threat to her rule. He is from Westeros, he's renowned, people take to him (god knows why) and he's from a House that's largely respected in Westeros. And again, his claim is superior to hers. And Dany knows all this. If you can't see how much danger Jon is in by this being kept secret, then you are as naive as Jon.

And Jon needs to thank his lucky stars that Dany didn't take the many opportunities she had to off him (or Bran/Sam for that matter). So what?

Of course Sansa is not to blame. She's a fictional character no matter how hard that concept is to grasp for this fandom who hate on a fictional character as if she's Hitler reborn. I don't ever discuss these characters as characters, I discuss them as I do the rest of the show...as plots. Because that's what they are, plot points. They aren't characters. So what's the point discussing them as if they are characters? What I stated in the post you quoted was PLOT, plain and simple. Plot that people chose to and continue to choose to ignore for their own fanfic versions of the show to keep their hate/love of certain characters alive. Which seems insane to me as they are not characters, there are no characters in a self-proclaimed 'plot driven' show.

I’m sorry, but acknowleding a characters’ shades of grey in no way shape or form equates to calling them Hitler. Characters can be critiqued without being condemned. 

Anyway, if Sansa’s goal was Jon’s safety, then her plan makes no sense because it puts Jon in more immediate danger and relies on a ton of unaccounted for things to occur in order to be successful. 

She’s intentionally provoking the person she’s trying to protect Jon from. 

Yes Jon should thank his lucky stars he survived at all. That’s the point. He was put in a position where him surviving was unrealistic. 

Sansa’s plan should (not could) have gotten Jon (and her) killed a dozen times over. If she was doing it to keep Jon safe, then it’s just as bad as Tyrion’s wight hunt idea or all those times he trusted Cersei.

Not telling anybody is the safer alternative.

I’m not saying Sansa is a terrible person or that she’s dumb, I’m saying they should have come up with something better (just like they should have for Tyrion).

Her only hope was for Jon to kill Dany himself (something he showed no inclination of doing), and he only did that because she nuked KL (something Sansa had no way of knowing would happen). He wasn’t even sure he did the right thing weeks later. 

If Dany is even semi competent at anything other than burning children, Jon and the North are fucked because of Sansa’s actions.

Also (not sure how to do the pull quote thing on my phone) the books and seasons 1-4 of the show are character driven, not plot driven. The character’s actions drive the plot. That’s how it’s supposed to be.

Edited by King Wyman

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I get the feeling the only reason (and I mean only) Jon killed Dany was because of the threat, which Tyrion threw in his face, she posed to Sansa. If Dany doesn't start spewing  that New World Order stuff I think she gets a free pass on the massacre. I mean besides Tyrion who's from Kings Landing, were any of the other characters completely disgusted or outraged? The Northern army? Doubtful, considering they contributed to it. The people at the council? It's not even brought up. I don't think Sansa and Arya cared that much considering how people cheered when Ned got beheaded. Yara? They celebrated as she got dragged through the streets. The Dorne prince? He probably heard how they jeered and humiliated Ellaria and besides, Dorne never liked Kings Landing anyway. The rest have little love for the South and couldn't care less.

 

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