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C.T. Phipps

The Ending Was very conventional

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1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Oh, I see. Thank you.

That video’s narrator appears to be referencing what S8E1’s writer Dave Hill told Entertainment Weekly in their 2019-05-23 article about how in the initial scripts for Season Eight, that Jorah would live to join Jon in taking the black just like his father Jeor had told Same he hoped would happen, but that they ended up not doing that because it required too many contortions throughout the rest of the short season's plot to credibly get Jorah way up there for the closing scene at the very, very end.

However, your video’s narrator seems to draw on more than just that EW source alone. He gives clear plot changes in each of the ensuing episodes that would allow for that alternate ending. What he says about Jon at the end must derive from that other source, not from the EW article I’ve linked to.

I cannot help but wonder what that source was. Might you know? I looked around a little bit for it but came up empty-handed.

Thanks.

 

 

From what I saw posted on Reddit he is a bigshot YouTuber and has contacts with the director. 

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15 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

It'd be a very bittersweet ending for the character, if indeed he is instrumental to halting both ice and fire, through being of ice and fire, that the world he saved is no longer the world he remembered and is no longer the world for him.

Hm, sounds familiar...

I find nothing sweet about his ending. How is exploring the far north all alone in icy terrain with low temperatures fed up with the world a good ending? To be perfectly honest I would have preferred Drogon killing him to this. 

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1 minute ago, Kaapstad said:

I find nothing sweet about his ending. How is exploring the far north all alone in icy terrain with low temperatures fed up with the world a good ending? To be perfectly honest I would have preferred Drogon killing him to this. 

To clarify? The sweet comes before the bitter, like Arwen?

The sweet: world saved, sisters saved.

The bitter: he dishonored himself and he might never get peace if the occasional wannabe Varys decides to use his name as a figurehead for rebelion.

And I was just alliterating the Lotr ending for the hobbitses.

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On 5/21/2019 at 4:36 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

Because it's boring versus all the alternatives?

 

Who were the alternatives? Other white men? Daenerys? She’s a white woman. Not much change besides Bran is physically disable so there’s a bit of representation there for a group that isn’t normally represented. Actually if you look at who is ruling Westeros at the end, it’s all outcasts.

A cripple, a dwarf, a fat coward, a lowborn smuggler, a mercenary rogue and a lady knight. 

 

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On 5/29/2019 at 8:20 AM, Techmaester said:

They subverted us by having us expect an unconventional ending then ended conventionally - bravo D&D, bravo.

What would have been an unconventional ending? 

- Dany and Jon having a kid. 

- Jon turning "dark"

- Jon choosing his actual parentage instead of staying a fake "Stark".

Basically it ended with the meanie queen getting killed by our selfless protagonist after rejecting his real parentage and then him continuing to adventure in exile. This is hardly a new script.

The only one of those that is actually unconventional is Jon turning dark but that’s essentially what happened with Dany instead.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

The only one of those that is actually unconventional is Jon turning dark but that’s essentially what happened with Dany instead.

How is embracing your father's "evil" heritage, having a kid with your aunt and restarting a dragon based monarchy with the goal of unifying the world under your rule conventional? Please give me some stories that end like this.

Edited by Techmaester

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5 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

How is embracing your father's "evil" heritage, having a kid with your aunt and restarting a dragon based monarchy with the goal of unifying the world under your rule conventional? Please give me some stories that end like this.

Return of the King. The rightful king returns to the throne and all is made right. 

Now if you’re talking about King Jon and Queen Dany but evil then that’s different.

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2 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Return of the King. The rightful king returns to the throne and all is made right. 

Now if you’re talking about King Jon and Queen Dany but evil then that’s different.

Evil is subjective, more like jaded, willing to make hard decisions and valuing his heritage embracing the destructive parts of it. Basically sticking with Dany post Kings Landing.

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31 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Evil is subjective, more like jaded, willing to make hard decisions and valuing his heritage embracing the destructive parts of it. Basically sticking with Dany post Kings Landing.

Sounds like fanservice. An ending for edgelord fanboys who want Jon to be their self-insert so they can bone Emilia Clarke. The "murder and tits" ending. The twist-Jon-Snow-into-Khal-Drogo ending which would give the fanbase exactly what they wanted: Jon and Dany together forever, fucking on the Iron Throne, popping out inbred children, and making useless Sansa bow to them. Since they never saw any problems with the Targaryens to begin  - because violence is "normal in this universe" - no perceptions are challenged, just confirmed and validated. 

Jon did make a hard decision, he killed one family member for another. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sounds like fanservice. An ending for edgelord fanboys who want Jon to be their self-insert so they can bone Emilia Clarke. The "murder and tits" ending. The twist-Jon-Snow-into-Khal-Drogo ending which would give the fanbase exactly what they wanted: Jon and Dany together forever, fucking on the Iron Throne, popping out inbred children, and making useless Sansa bow to them. Since they never saw any problems with the Targaryens to begin  - because violence is "normal in this universe" - no perceptions are challenged, just confirmed and validated. 

Jon did make a hard decision, he killed one family member for another. 

Well now that you wrote it like that, it does sound pretty awesome and I hope someone writes an inspired fanfiction of it but that's not exactly what I was thinking.

My argument is what I wrote before - after fighting the dead, it should have become apparent to everyone that the threats to Westeros - to human existence itself are so great, that the value Dany, her magical blood and her dragons provided so huge that she could burn as many peasants as she wanted and it wouldn't make a difference.(This in addition to the subplot of Jon accepting his heritage and vengeance for the genocide and disposition committed against his family). 

Jon killing Dany and ending the Targaryens maybe saved Westeros from a "dictator" but also killed off potentially their greatest source of power(which the show never considered). For what ever failures the Taragaryens and Valyrians had, their success was too great to end the opportunity of restoring that power and using it in the defense of Westeros. The only logical action would be to have started trying to figure out how to produce more dragons and have Jon and Dany producing children which could control them, it would literally be Jons duty - both from the perspective of his heritage and also from the perspective of a King and a "defender of the realm". At this point in the story we are past the question of moral or just rule, we are past worrying about collateral damage and we are on to focusing on the reality which is "monsters" are real and we should be getting our own.   

This I'm sure isn't consistent with Martins ideals because it presents the idea that the pursuit of power is good, is necessary and is needed for your own protection and enforcing your will for the greater good a necessity but it's one I agree with(thus the unconventional nature of the ending). 

(I do, really, really want to see Jon fucking Dany on the Iron Throne and the glorious targ babies produced from it). 

Edited by Techmaester

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3 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Well now that you wrote it like that, it does sound pretty awesome and I hope someone writes an inspired fanfiction of it but that's not exactly what I was thinking.

 My argument is what I wrote before - after fighting the dead, it should have become apparent to everyone that the threats to Westeros - to human existence itself are so great, that the value Dany, her magical blood and her dragons provided so huge that she could burn as many peasants as she wanted and it wouldn't make a difference.(This in addition to the subplot of Jon accepting his heritage and vengeance for the genocide and disposition committed against his family). 

Jon killing Dany and ending the Targaryens maybe saved Westeros from a "dictator" but also killed off potentially their greatest source of power(which the show never considered). For what ever failures the Taragaryens and Valyrians had, their success was too great to end the opportunity of restoring that power and using it in the defense of Westeros. The only logical action would be to have started trying to figure out how to produce more dragons and have Jon and Dany producing children which could control them, it would literally be Jons duty - both from the perspective of his heritage and also from the perspective of a King and a "defender of the realm". At this point in the story we are past the question of moral or just rule, we are past worrying about collateral damage and we are on to focusing on the reality which is "monsters" are real and we should be getting our own.   

This I'm sure isn't consistent with Martins ideals because it presents the idea that the pursuit of power is good, is necessary and is needed for your own protection and enforcing your will for the greater good a necessity but it's one I agree with.

(I do, really, really want to see Jon fucking Dany on the Iron Throne and the glorious targ babies produced from it). 

A triumph of the Nazis ending then? Yeah, GRRM isn't going to do that thank god.

You might enjoy some Conan stories because that was the inspiration for my little fanfic short story that excited you so much.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

A triumph of the Nazis ending then? Yeah, GRRM isn't going to do that thank god.

You might enjoy some Conan stories because that was the inspiration for my little fanfic short story that excited you so much.

Calling them Nazis is a bit of a stretch, Danys goal wasn't to kill everyone. Neither were the Targs as a whole. Only those who challenged their rule. The rejection of Targaryen success wouldn't have happened after Winterfell. Burnt children is literally nothing compared to fighting walking dead people but this gets glossed over on this forum(and by Martin I guess).   

Ah, I will look. A friend of mine said I should also look at GOR lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gor

Ultimately I like stories where the characters are fundamentally good even if they do something that's bad. Warhammer 40k is another example, God Emperor of Man - DanyXBran - genetically superior, waged countless wars, suppressed billions and then trillions of people but expanded the human empire, fought Xenos(committing mass genocide on them), fought Chaos - a true dark knight like Westeros would need(and would want after fighting dead people).

Martins ending was uninteresting and hit all the stereotypical stuff put out(power is bad, blah blah), the only thing he did differently was having Jon kill his aunt/lover who turned "bad" but that's not really "unconventional".   

Edited by Techmaester

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8 hours ago, Techmaester said:

Calling them Nazis is a bit of a stretch, Danys goal wasn't to kill everyone. Neither were the Targs as a whole. Only those who challenged their rule. The rejection of Targaryen success wouldn't have happened after Winterfell. Burnt children is literally nothing compared to fighting walking dead people but this gets glossed over on this forum(and by Martin I guess).   

Ah, I will look. A friend of mine said I should also look at GOR lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gor

Ultimately I like stories where the characters are fundamentally good even if they do something that's bad. Warhammer 40k is another example, God Emperor of Man - DanyXBran - genetically superior, waged countless wars, suppressed billions and then trillions of people but expanded the human empire, fought Xenos(committing mass genocide on them), fought Chaos - a true dark knight like Westeros would need(and would want after fighting dead people).

Martins ending was uninteresting and hit all the stereotypical stuff put out(power is bad, blah blah), the only thing he did differently was having Jon kill his aunt/lover who turned "bad" but that's not really "unconventional".   

This is more like Benioff and Weiss’ context with GRRM’s endpoints for the MCs. 

 

For all intents and purposes, Bran is the God-Emperor of Man that’s probably using his powers to run a police state to keep the nobles in line just like his mentor, Bloodraven 

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On 6/3/2019 at 12:56 AM, CrypticWeirwood said:

Oh, I see. Thank you.

That video’s narrator appears to be referencing what S8E1’s writer Dave Hill told Entertainment Weekly in their 2019-05-23 article about how in the initial scripts for Season Eight, that Jorah would live to join Jon in taking the black just like his father Jeor had told Same he hoped would happen, but that they ended up not doing that because it required too many contortions throughout the rest of the short season's plot to credibly get Jorah way up there for the closing scene at the very, very end.

However, your video’s narrator seems to draw on more than just that EW source alone. He gives clear plot changes in each of the ensuing episodes that would allow for that alternate ending. What he says about Jon at the end must derive from that other source, not from the EW article I’ve linked to.

I cannot help but wonder what that source was. Might you know? I looked around a little bit for it but came up empty-handed.

Thanks.

 

 

Seems the video is given more credence by he Last Watch Documentary which has the executive producer saying Jon isn’t meeting his family every again which means he isn’t going to Westeros again and since she doesn’t say anything about him being king beyond the wall, I am inclined to believe his video is correct. He just ranges into the far North forever and becomes a Ghost like his direwolf. 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/3/2019 at 2:26 AM, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

We never did see if he was scorch proof, did we?

We did. His hand was burnt back in season 1 saving Mormont from the Wights. Also in the books even Dany isn’t fire resistant. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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Just now, Kaapstad said:

We did. His hand was burnt back in season 1 saving Mormont from the Wights. Although even in the books Dany isn’t fire resistant. 

Yeah, forgot that. Hm... So, points for passing the sniff test from Drogon.

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On 6/5/2019 at 9:21 AM, Techmaester said:

Stabbing a girl who trusts you while you kiss her is antithetical to heroism no matter how you cut it. 

And you saw how she was killing unarmed civilians with a dragon just because she could? You saw her lock Doreah and that noble into a vault in Meereen instead of killing them conventionally? You saw her feed a random noble who possibly wasn't guilty to one of her dragons and make it a spectacle? You saw how she terrorised the people of winterfell with her dragons? The death Jon gave her was heroic compared to the barbaric ones she gives her enemies

 

On 6/5/2019 at 3:12 AM, Techmaester said:

When someone shows up with dragons it's a pretty fair thing to assume they are going to burn down your city if you don't surrender before the fighting starts, especially after your leader publicly beheads the enemies hand after going back on an agreement and ambushing them. I suppose the civilians didn't know the later fact but regardless their deaths were pretty expected, maybe not from a "liberator" but certainly from a conqueror(at that point I would be in the conquering mood also). She clearly didn't kill everyone since Grey Worm was practicing his knife skills on Lannister soldiers.

Ultimately we're reasoning from an abstract moral framework and the idea of "rules" when war happens but I don't agree that they apply in this setting as Cersei had already shown a complete willingness to violate them. Guess I just like Dany more than what ever peasants she roasted in the process of Cerseis removal. 

You saw her go on and on in the prior seasons about not spilling the blood of innocents and not being queen of the ashes? You saw her tell Jon multiple times that she is not her father? You saw her tell Yara that she was going to leave the world better than she found it? Yes she pretty much killed almost everyone. There were a million people in Kings Landing when she attacked and now it looks like a ghost town in comparison

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

And you saw how she was killing unarmed civilians with a dragon just because she could? You saw her lock Doreah and that noble into a vault in Meereen instead of killing them conventionally? You saw her feed a random noble who possibly wasn't guilty to one of her dragons and make it a spectacle? You saw how she terrorised the people of winterfell with her dragons? The death Jon gave her was heroic compared to the barbaric ones she gives her enemies

 

You saw her go on and on in the prior seasons about not spilling the blood of innocents and not being queen of the ashes? You saw her tell Jon multiple times that she is not her father? You saw her tell Yara that she was going to leave the world better than she found it? Yes she pretty much killed almost everyone. There were a million people in Kings Landing when she attacked and now it looks like a ghost town in comparison

No, she acted with purpose even if it was not ideal action. If we saw her attack an uninvolved party for entertainment or one which submitted to her from the beginning who wasn't part of an ongoing a war, you might have a point(if you're part of an enemies city regardless of if you physically fight you're still an enemy, see how the US dropped bombs on Japanese cities). The only questionable decision was continuing destruction of kings landing but it wasn't a random act of unmotivated sadism. I don't see anything wrong with the other acts, arguably she was too tolerant. The idea of being nice to people who betray you either individually or collectively is baffling to me and no leader would accept it. Making spectacles of their deaths is fine.

We don't know how she would have ruled because we didn't get to see it. We saw her burn a bunch of people during an ongoing war and a future desire to force the other kingdoms to submit to her rule. The competitors had already shown a willingness to do the same thing so it's hardly unique to Dany(she is just better at it). Ultimately I don't really care about the people in the city she razed, sad but globally kind of irrelevant - definitely not enough of a reason for Jon to assassinate her given her contributions and both their backgrounds(I would even argue the most Jon could reasonably do was not support her). Obviously we aren't going to agree.

 

 

Edited by Techmaester

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