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The Ending Was very conventional

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22 hours ago, Techmaester said:

No, she acted with purpose even if it was not ideal action.

Committing mass murder of the citizenry after its soldiers surrendered "isn't ideal"? Really? Who would have imagined!

You just can't let a mad butcher rule you.

That's why the bloodthirsty foreign spoiled bitch had to be put down by the most honorable house in all of Westeros: the same one who cleaned up yet another hot Targaryen mess at the end of the Dance of Dragons during the Hour of the Wolf.

 

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Posted (edited)

But Jon is House Targaryen. I know he wears the little wolves on his armor and has a cute direwolf. It was Targ on Targ violence. His cousin monarchs wouldn't even given him the Stark name as thank you. Bran could have knighted his ass right before he leave for the Wall. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark
Sarcasm

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Committing mass murder of the citizenry after its soldiers surrendered "isn't ideal"? Really? Who would have imagined!

You just can't let a mad butcher rule you.

That's why the bloodthirsty foreign spoiled bitch had to be put down by the most honorable house in all of Westeros: the same one who cleaned up yet another hot Targaryen mess at the end of the Dance of Dragons during the Hour of the Wolf.

 

The Lannisters did that, Gregor and company went on plenty of scorched earth policies towards their enemies. Why is the person who used their population as shields and then attempted to escape better? Or what about wanting death to kill their enemies first and let their population die if the opportunity to stay as ruler existed? Jamie was happy to have everyone else die for Cersei. 

Dany pulled the trigger but the sequence of events leading up to it was one of consistent disregard for civilian populations life and the rest of the leaders are equally culpable/no better than Dany. Danys campaign was violent and would continue to be towards those who resisted her but she's not different than Cersei or the other rulers - she's just more powerful. 

Pretty sure Jon lost what ever honor he had, Jamie was constantly looked down upon for his actions and it wasn't nearly as bad as what Jon did lol. Jon took the cowards path...not something Ned would have done. 

Edited by Techmaester

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11 hours ago, Techmaester said:

Pretty sure Jon lost what ever honor he had, Jamie was constantly looked down upon for his actions and it wasn't nearly as bad as what Jon did lol. Jon took the cowards path...not something Ned would have done. 

And yet Ned okay'ed Dany's assassination as long as Robert did it himself. He told Robert he was the coward because he wanted to use an assassin. Ned said Robert should do it himself so he could see her tears as he killed her. Robert was the coward, Jon was the brave one. This passage is actually interesting foreshadowing.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Techmaester said:

 

Pretty sure Jon lost what ever honor he had, Jamie was constantly looked down upon for his actions and it wasn't nearly as bad as what Jon did lol. Jon took the cowards path...not something Ned would have done. 

John’s character is so badly written. I don’t even know where to start but now that some time has passed after the end you can see his character dragging so much after his resurrection. 

Instead of becoming a man of his own mind he is constantly manipulated by others. A second wheel. Like his usefulness as a character is only to serve his sisters, the men in the North and much later Tyrion. He is emptied of true narrative and meaningful dialogues. Fails to understand the world around him, acts cowardly assasinating a woman who trusts him without speaking  his mind against her actions, and then happily leaves for the wall to live as a monk the rest of his life, actually thanking the people that used him for their own means. What a pathetic ending for a supposed hero or the prince who was promised. Led so many people to their deaths with stupid decisions and then goes to live free in total ignorance. 

This is not about Jon but for the writing of Jon who turns from a promised prince to an ignorant fool with minus understanding of the world around him. 

The writers made it so you can’t  really approach any character without feeling disgusted by what they become and ending up bashing them. 

Edited by Nightwish

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Posted (edited)

Yeah indeed, I mean this ending where the protagonist separates and leaves forever has become conventional. GRRM might think this is unique but it’s overdone. In inheritance cycle, Eragon leaves Alagaësia forever. Frodo leaves Middle Earth forever. In Mistborn, Vin chooses to go to the Beyond when she has a choice to return. It’s an overused trope at this point just like happily ever after endings and writers are over exploiting it. Hopefully Stormlight Archives doesn’t end with Kaladin leaving Roshar forever as he seems to be the Jon Snow there. He has clear parallels with him. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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The ending of the show was like a conventional Disney movie ending.  All the Starks got what they wanted, Tyrion is Hand, Sam is Grand Maester (how exactly?), Brienne is captain of the KG, and Bronn is Master of Coin (he didn't even know how loans worked in season 3, but hey, let's put him in charge of all the money).  

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8 hours ago, allthingsasoiaf said:

The ending of the show was like a conventional Disney movie ending.  All the Starks got what they wanted, 

Bran didn't get to walk again.

Arya didn't get to kill Cersei.

Sansa didn't get to marry a prince. 

Jon didn't get to marry the girl he loved.

Robb and Rickon didn't get to live. 

Neither did Cat or Ned.

Or Lyanna or Brandon or Rickard.

Tell us again about your Disney ending, the one where all the Starks got what they wanted. None of them did.

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11 hours ago, allthingsasoiaf said:

The ending of the show was like a conventional Disney movie ending.  All the Starks got what they wanted, Tyrion is Hand, Sam is Grand Maester (how exactly?), Brienne is captain of the KG, and Bronn is Master of Coin (he didn't even know how loans worked in season 3, but hey, let's put him in charge of all the money).  

I would not say that all the Starks living along away from each other would make it a conventional Disney ending. I would say the Harry Potter epilogue is a Disney ending with everyone marrying and living close to each other 

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On 6/8/2019 at 3:12 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

And yet Ned okay'ed Dany's assassination as long as Robert did it himself. He told Robert he was the coward because he wanted to use an assassin. Ned said Robert should do it himself so he could see her tears as he killed her. Robert was the coward, Jon was the brave one. This passage is actually interesting foreshadowing.

I wouldn't say that Ned was okaying it so much as taunting Robert - ie you want to murder a pregnant girl and you don't even have the guts to do it yourself.

One of the unpleasant implications of the ending of the series is that Robert was right to want to murder Daenerys, and Ned was wrong to stop him.

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14 hours ago, allthingsasoiaf said:

The ending of the show was like a conventional Disney movie ending.  All the Starks got what they wanted, Tyrion is Hand, Sam is Grand Maester (how exactly?), Brienne is captain of the KG, and Bronn is Master of Coin (he didn't even know how loans worked in season 3, but hey, let's put him in charge of all the money).  

Bronn went to business school between Seasons 2 and 8.  D & D "kinda forgot" to mention it.

Sansa, Bran, Sam, and Tyrion definitely landed on their feet at the end.

OTOH, I imagine Jon's future life would be miserable.  He would likely torment himself for the rest of his days about what he did.  And, while the Free Folk would not care about the politics of Kings Landing, they would despise a kinslayer as much as the people South of the Wall.  Every time the crops fail, or the children sicken, there would be dark looks and suspicious mutterings about the gods-cursed man who dwells among them.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Bronn went to business school between Seasons 2 and 8.  D & D "kinda forgot" to mention it.

Sansa, Bran, Sam, and Tyrion definitely landed on their feet at the end.

OTOH, I imagine Jon's future life would be miserable.  He would likely torment himself for the rest of his days about what he did.  And, while the Free Folk would not care about the politics of Kings Landing, they would despise a kinslayer as much as the people South of the Wall.  Every time the crops fail, or the children sicken, there would be dark looks and suspicious mutterings about the gods-cursed man who dwells among them.

Which is why I at times imagine Jon stays at the Wall. I think he would prefer staying alone at this point. It just doesn’t seem like Jon’s nature to just go to frolick and party with Tormund after killing Dany. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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On 6/7/2019 at 9:43 PM, King Jon Snow Stark said:

But Jon is House Targaryen. I know he wears the little wolves on his armor and has a cute direwolf. It was Targ on Targ violence. His cousin monarchs wouldn't even given him the Stark name as thank you. Bran could have knighted his ass right before he leave for the Wall. 

Jon had the power to legitimize himself when he was KitN. It's actually something he should have done in a feudal system but Jon doesn't understand politics. The other Starks wouldn't have minded if he did. But Jon has said several times over the Seasons that he's not a Stark. I don't see why Sansa or 3ER (who isn't even a human anymore, much less a Stark) should give him the name now when Jon didn't bother to do it when he had the power to and keeps saying he's not a Stark. Dany also had the power the legitimize him as either a Stark or a Targ but that probably didn't fit her agenda. She preferred to make a Baratheon legitimate which in their world ironically would have made Gendry the first in line for the Throne. But Dany, like Jon, not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to politics.

As far as I'm concerned, I didn't fine the ending conventional, just confusing. Because none of it made sense. From 3ER as King to independent North to the new King's council to there still being a NW. I guess 'confusing ending' would actually make this more unconventional but I doubt that was D&D's plan.

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3 hours ago, Mystical said:

Jon had the power to legitimize himself when he was KitN. It's actually something he should have done in a feudal system but Jon doesn't understand politics. The other Starks wouldn't have minded if he did. But Jon has said several times over the Seasons that he's not a Stark. I don't see why Sansa or 3ER (who isn't even a human anymore, much less a Stark) should give him the name now when Jon didn't bother to do it when he had the power to and keeps saying he's not a Stark. Dany also had the power the legitimize him as either a Stark or a Targ but that probably didn't fit her agenda. She preferred to make a Baratheon legitimate which in their world ironically would have made Gendry the first in line for the Throne. But Dany, like Jon, not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to politics.

As far as I'm concerned, I didn't fine the ending conventional, just confusing. Because none of it made sense. From 3ER as King to independent North to the new King's council to there still being a NW. I guess 'confusing ending' would actually make this more unconventional but I doubt that was D&D's plan. 

One more aspect of the ending which is weird is that Jon is the only character who still doesn't symbolise the direwolf. Sansa becomes a Lady. Arya becomes an explorer with her own pack like Nymeria. Jon is the only Stark who hasn't symbolised his direwolf "Ghost". I sometimes think GRRM didn't give them the complete version of Jon's ending which is why his ending is left ambiguous

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

One more aspect of the ending which is weird is that Jon is the only character who still doesn't symbolise the direwolf. Sansa becomes a Lady. Arya becomes an explorer with her own pack like Nymeria. Jon is the only Stark who hasn't symbolised his direwolf "Ghost". I sometimes think GRRM didn't give them the complete version of Jon's ending which is why his ending is left ambiguous

Doesn't he? I think he does. He becomes a ghost in at least two senses and perhaps others.

First, he died of a knife to the heart so his continued presence is like an after-death ghost.

Second, he goes off to wander the realms beyond the Realm, beyond the Wall. He will become a legend while still alive, just a wanderer who may or may not even exist.

Finally, it seems certain form Varamyr’s prologue in Dance that Jon's spirit was for a time housed in his direwolf after his body lay cold and dead. 

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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8 hours ago, Mystical said:

As far as I'm concerned, I didn't fine the ending conventional, just confusing. Because none of it made sense. From 3ER as King to independent North to the new King's council to there still being a NW. I guess 'confusing ending' would actually make this more unconventional but I doubt that was D&D's plan.

I don't know if this has been discussed, but who does the NW report to? Is it the king in KL? If so, why? Why is there a NW beyond the borders of the six kingdoms? If the wildlings are the issue, they will be raiding the North. Why would KL care? Is it just a prison then?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Doesn't he? I think he does. He becomes a ghost in at least two senses and perhaps others.

First, he died of a knife to the heart so his continued presence is like an after-death ghost.

Second, he goes off to wander the realms beyond the Realm, beyond the Wall. He will become a legend while still alive, just a wanderer who may or may not even exist.

Finally, it seems certain form Varamyr’s prologue in Dance that Jon's spirit was for a time housed in his direwolf after his body lay cold and dead. 

I think how GRRM ends this is Jon exits the wall just like on the show but he doesn't go to stay with the wildlings. He goes ranging into the Far North with his direwolf and becomes a ghost like his direwolf and he is never seen or heard of again. This is foreshadowed in book 1 where Tyrion tells Jon "Who will go looking for you?"  I think this ending was just too bitter which is why they cut it short. It also explains why he is wearing the NW outfit and not wildlings clothes

Edited by Kaapstad

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't know if this has been discussed, but who does the NW report to? Is it the king in KL? If so, why? Why is there a NW beyond the borders of the six kingdoms? If the wildlings are the issue, they will be raiding the North. Why would KL care? Is it just a prison then?

There is no purpose to the Nights Watch. The popular theory is that it was all a trick. There was no NW. Bran and Tyrion knew they were sending Jon to his freedom at the Wall so they just made up the whole thing about the NW existing to fool Grey Worm. When Jon gets there he catches on and leaves with the wildlings. He never took the vows. Tyrion only told the vows to Jon so that the Unsullied soldiers who were outside his cell would listen and report to Grey Worm that Jon was indeed taking the vows and taking the black. Sansa doesn't tell Jon that its a trick because the Unsullied are nearby and listening but she is in on this plan as well.

But I still don't understand why did they go through all this trouble of mentioning the vows, Jon telling Arya to meet him at Castle Black, him wearing the uniform going out and showing 4 new NW recruits if the endgame was him ending up with wildlings. Why not just tell Grey Worm he would be exiled beyond the wall for life never to return instead of mentioning a NW which has no purpose. Why would Grey Worm not listen to this? If you think about it for more than a minute, nothing makes sense.

Edited by Kaapstad

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22 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

There is no purpose to the Nights Watch. The popular theory is that it was all a trick. There was no NW. Bran and Tyrion knew they were sending Jon to his freedom at the Wall so they just made up the whole thing about the NW existing to fool Grey Worm. When Jon gets there he catches on and leaves with the wildlings. He never took the vows. Tyrion only told the vows to Jon so that the Unsullied soldiers who were outside his cell would listen and report to Grey Worm that Jon was indeed taking the vows and taking the black. Sansa doesn't tell Jon that its a trick because the Unsullied are nearby and listening but she is in on this plan as well.

But I still don't understand why did they go through all this trouble of mentioning the vows, Jon telling Arya to meet him at Castle Black, him wearing the uniform going out and showing 4 new NW recruits if the endgame was him ending up with wildlings. Why not just tell Grey Worm he would be exiled beyond the wall for life never to return instead of mentioning a NW which has no purpose. Why would Grey Worm not listen to this? If you think about it for more than a minute, nothing makes sense.

Plus, the unsullied left. It's not like they are going to come back to check if Jon is serving his sentence. So Jon could just as easily come back south. None of it makes any sense.

32 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

I think how GRRM ends this is Jon exits the wall just like on the show but he doesn't go to stay with the wildlings. He goes ranging into the Far North with his direwolf and becomes a ghost like his direwolf and he is never seen or heard of again. This is foreshadowed in book 1 where Tyrion tells Jon "Who will go looking for you?"  I think this ending was just too bitter which is why they cut it short. It also explains why he is wearing the NW outfit and not wildlings clothes

So like Arya without the scurvy? I think it's still depressing.

And since we are on the subject of being confused by the ending, do we know why exactly was the NK after Bran? What would killing bran accomplish for the NK?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Plus, the unsullied left. It's not like they are going to come back to check if Jon is serving his sentence. So Jon could just as easily come back south. None of it makes any sense.

So like Arya without the scurvy? I think it's still depressing.

And since we are on the subject of being confused by the ending, do we know why exactly was the NK after Bran? What would killing bran accomplish for the NK?

I think the Unsullied leave without bothering to put a check on Jon probably because Grey Worm knows Jon is an honourable man and would not break an official order. Or maybe Dorne and Iron Islands agreed to check on him for GW.

If it’s the former, it kind of makes Jon look bad for breaking his honour. If it’s the latter, both Dorne and Iron Islands decided to say "Fuck it" rather than stay loyal to a corpse and let Jon go away. 

I think if the wildlings end is really true the last scene of him is indeed that he is a deserter so coming back south isn’t going to break any more rules as far as he is concerned. I don’t think Sansa even cares to enforce anything when it comes to Jon as she was ready to go to war for him. 

Yeah. The ending is very similar to Arya but for Jon is even more depressing as Arya would likely make many new friends while Jon just disappears all alone. But it’s the only way to make sense of that glance back at the door and the NW uniform without contradicting each other. The glance back is his last look at human civilisation before he rides off. 

The only reasoning for the NK to king Bran was that the NK didn’t just want to rule Westeros, he wanted to erase it and Bran was the keeper of all memories so he wanted to start with him. 

Edited by Kaapstad

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