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C.T. Phipps

The Ending Was very conventional

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To be honest Grey Worm didn't have any leverage. He could kill Jon, sure. And then he would have to face the Realm. They were still invaders. Responsible for the death of plenty, even before King's Landing. In a foreign land. Masters of a city burnt to the ground.

I highly doubt he sees Jon as honorable after the murder of Daenerys. Grey Worm never had that "it's going to far" moment, he was happily cutting throats after the battle. The Iron Island just lost all of their fleet (and that was all they had). Dorne could eventually, but they bent the knee to Bran without so much of a word. Wouldn't count on them doing much, if anything.

 

The Unsullied left KL pretty much at the same time as Jon. By the time he reaches the North they are long gone. His exile makes sense only if it is what he wants.

 

As for the NK, did he really want to kill Bran ? Seems to me he didn't use the right method. Having a dragon, seeing what happened to KL... which is weird, as he seemed to be quite the mastermind a few seasons back when he lured a dragon North to take it and destroy the Wall (these massive chains didn't just appear !).

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50 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

To be honest Grey Worm didn't have any leverage. He could kill Jon, sure. And then he would have to face the Realm. They were still invaders. Responsible for the death of plenty, even before King's Landing. In a foreign land. Masters of a city burnt to the ground.

I highly doubt he sees Jon as honorable after the murder of Daenerys. Grey Worm never had that "it's going to far" moment, he was happily cutting throats after the battle. The Iron Island just lost all of their fleet (and that was all they had). Dorne could eventually, but they bent the knee to Bran without so much of a word. Wouldn't count on them doing much, if anything.

 

The Unsullied left KL pretty much at the same time as Jon. By the time he reaches the North they are long gone. His exile makes sense only if it is what he wants.

 

As for the NK, did he really want to kill Bran ? Seems to me he didn't use the right method. Having a dragon, seeing what happened to KL... which is weird, as he seemed to be quite the mastermind a few seasons back when he lured a dragon North to take it and destroy the Wall (these massive chains didn't just appear !).

The only reason his exile still feels like a punishment is because of the Nights Watch outfit. Jon only breaks his oaths for very serious reasons. He left back in Season 6 because he felt he himself was the injured party. He tried very hard not to break his oath to Dany but when seemed intent on burning down everything he was forced to break it. I think Grey Worm knew he was blindly following orders but deep down what he was doing was wrong. That’s why he probably didn’t kill Jon right off the bat the moment he knew of their murder  

So although nothing may be keeping him from just going out there and becoming King beyond the wall and enjoy with the people he respects, it’s possible he feels he needs to be punished a little for what he did and stay in the NW with whatever purpose it has. 

It isn’t clear. The more I feel he is with the NW, turns I start to feel he is with the wildlings. I guess we may learn the answer on the 16th of July when the entire Episode 6 script releases so we get more information on the NW and where exactly Jon is at the end. 

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20 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't know if this has been discussed, but who does the NW report to? Is it the king in KL? If so, why? Why is there a NW beyond the borders of the six kingdoms? If the wildlings are the issue, they will be raiding the North. Why would KL care? Is it just a prison then?

I don't think in the show the NW ever reported to anyone. They never clarified under whose jurisdiction they were, only that the WotN dealt with deserters and the like because the North is right at the border. Seems they were independent. They voted their own 'king' (Lord Commander) and they had their own lands with The Gift although they never did anything with said land until they settled the Wildlings there. The NW has no point anymore as the reasons for their existence are gone. If the Wildlings start raiding again, someone better wipe them out for good. They tried to get south of the wall for hundreds of years for a better life, they finally make it, are gifted land to settle on and then just go to the frozen North again.

8 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

Yeah. The ending is very similar to Arya but for Jon is even more depressing as Arya would likely make many new friends while Jon just disappears all alone.

Arya is going to make friends with the sea life, nothing more. Now they never addressed this in the show but we know that so far, the only thing found west of Westeros is water and nothing but. She and her crew will run out of drinking water and food in no time and then die at sea. Arya's ending is way more depressing than Jon's (which I saw as one of the most positive) because her journey only has one outcome...certain death.

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15 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

I think the Unsullied leave without bothering to put a check on Jon probably because Grey Worm knows Jon is an honourable man and would not break an official order. Or maybe Dorne and Iron Islands agreed to check on him for GW.

If it’s the former, it kind of makes Jon look bad for breaking his honour. If it’s the latter, both Dorne and Iron Islands decided to say "Fuck it" rather than stay loyal to a corpse and let Jon go away. 

I think if the wildlings end is really true the last scene of him is indeed that he is a deserter so coming back south isn’t going to break any more rules as far as he is concerned. I don’t think Sansa even cares to enforce anything when it comes to Jon as she was ready to go to war for him. 

Yeah. The ending is very similar to Arya but for Jon is even more depressing as Arya would likely make many new friends while Jon just disappears all alone. But it’s the only way to make sense of that glance back at the door and the NW uniform without contradicting each other. The glance back is his last look at human civilisation before he rides off. 

The only reasoning for the NK to king Bran was that the NK didn’t just want to rule Westeros, he wanted to erase it and Bran was the keeper of all memories so he wanted to start with him. 

I can see Grey Worm trusting Jon to complete his sentence. And as for Bran and the NK, that plot has left me more confused than ever. Did Bran plan everything all along? Did the NK know in advance about the dragon coming north of the wall? I'm sure nobody gave too much thought to any of this.

 

6 hours ago, Mystical said:

Arya is going to make friends with the sea life, nothing more. Now they never addressed this in the show but we know that so far, the only thing found west of Westeros is water and nothing but. She and her crew will run out of drinking water and food in no time and then die at sea. Arya's ending is way more depressing than Jon's (which I saw as one of the most positive) because her journey only has one outcome...certain death.

I dunno, I had always thought Arya's journey was about getting over her demons, not being governed by the need to kill, getting through her kill list at some point and not adding more names. I had hoped she would eventually settle down in society alongside her family.

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The evil Queen(s) defeated, the big bad great evil Night King destroyed, the magical boy sits on the Throne with his council of fan favorite characters, the family with the most POV chapters/scenes get 3 outta 4 happily ever afters, and peace is restored to the realm....

How exactly isn’t this a Disney ending? 

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Posted (edited)

Well to be fair that was a great opportunity for them to show off all the good they can bring to Starwars...

Plus everyone expected a brilliant ending, no fun in doing what everyone expects.

Edited by Jaghen

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On 6/21/2019 at 10:54 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

Bran didn't get to walk again.

Arya didn't get to kill Cersei.

Sansa didn't get to marry a prince. 

Jon didn't get to marry the girl he loved.

Robb and Rickon didn't get to live. 

Neither did Cat or Ned.

Or Lyanna or Brandon or Rickard.

Tell us again about your Disney ending, the one where all the Starks got what they wanted. None of them did.

I think my initial post tells us exactly how it was a Disney ending for many of the characters.  In terms of the remaining Starks: Sansa is queen (which is what she wanted in case you weren't paying attention the last few seasons), Arya gets to be "free" and explore and isn't forced to be a lady, Jon was happiest when he spent time north of the Wall, gets to go back and now has no responsibilities whatsoever, which is what he always bitched about.  Bran, the guy who said he isn't Bran and that's why he can't be Lord of anything anymore, apparently is still Bran but was just holding out to become king instead.  The ending of the show was pathetic.  

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6 hours ago, allthingsasoiaf said:

 The ending of the show was pathetic.  

I’m pretty sure that the word you were looking for there is bathetic, not pathetic. Pathos it had in plenty. It was its bathos that you so lament.

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12 hours ago, allthingsasoiaf said:

Bran, the guy who said he isn't Bran and that's why he can't be Lord of anything anymore, apparently is still Bran but was just holding out to become king instead.  The ending of the show was pathetic.  

The actor said Bran isnt even human.

Dumb.

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Posted (edited)

Well what is a human ?

Is Mel human ? Beric and Jon ? Wights ? Are greenseers humans ? Is Maggy thhe Frog ?

My take is that Bran is still there, and likely still in charge. but he is not there alone. With memories of times long gone his psyche has changed tremendously for sure. And it's possible that when "merging" with the 3ER he had to welcome the "souls" for lack of a better word of all those that came before him. Alia from Dune is an example of what I'm thinking.

 

The actor saying "Bran is not human" to me is merely an easy way to describe him as changed in the script. He doesn't care anymore for earthly things (or at the very least that's the official take, why he'd seek to become king is still unanswered). He still at least pretends to care for his family. Or the Northern Independence makes even less sense as it does already.

Edited by Jaghen

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On 6/25/2019 at 12:59 PM, Jaghen said:

My take is that Bran is still there, and likely still in charge. but he is not there alone. With memories of times long gone his psyche has changed tremendously for sure. And it's possible that when "merging" with the 3ER he had to welcome the "souls" for lack of a better word of all those that came before him. Alia from Dune is an example of what I'm thinking.

The individual gets swallowed up by the collective. That's how hive-minds work. Bran got absorbed into a collective of hundreds/thousands of 'personalities, both human and Children of the Forest. Bran as an individual ceased to exist. He can remember his life as an abstract but it doesn't feel like his life anymore because he has the memories of so many. They couldn't have made that clearer unless one were to miss the 100 'I'm not Bran Stark anymore.' lines that we have heard since S7. Bran only exists as a body and memory separate from each other. It's Brandon Stark's body but not his mind. His mind was taken over by the 3ER entity.

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Is there references to vast numbers of predecessors in the show ? Can't think of any.

I wonder what would be the goal of the 3ER in granting the independence to the North if Bran ceased to exist. Not against the idea, but curious.

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"I’ve had a million people tell me that was the moment that hooked them, where they said, “Well, this is just not the same story I read a million times before.” Bran is the first viewpoint character. In the back of their heads, people are thinking Bran is the hero of the story. He’s young King Arthur. We’re going to follow this young boy – and then, boom: You don’t expect something like that to happen to him. So that was successful [laughs]" (x)

Bran was Wart from The Once and Future King all along. Even though he gets injured, goes on a magical mushroom trip, receives no ruling advice, he's no longer human, he still becomes king by "magical destiny." I find this confusing and trollish more than sensical and surprising.

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10 hours ago, Jaghen said:

Is there references to vast numbers of predecessors in the show ? Can't think of any.

All the skulls/skeletons in the cave didn't tip you off? That wasn't wight bones as they couldn't enter the cave due to magic. It wasn't bones of the Children either as they live for thousands of years in this show (see Leaf aka the one shoving the obsidian into the man in the flashback also being alive in present time). What does that leave? Previous humans lured to the cave as a host for the 3ER. Their bones now rotting on the floor.

10 hours ago, Jaghen said:

I wonder what would be the goal of the 3ER in granting the independence to the North if Bran ceased to exist. Not against the idea, but curious.

2 options. One is that a Stark is the ruler of the North. The Starks have Children ancestors (hence their magical abilities). So technically the Children are in power there too.

The other option is that if you go with the '3ER is anti-human' theory (due to being a creation of the Children), giving the North it's independence will lead to major chaos by either the North getting attacked by Ironborne whenever they actually repopulate the Iron Islands. Or by other Kingdoms wanting their freedom and rebelling which would lead to war across all Kingdoms followed by massive casualties. Or ideally both of those things happen which would suit the 3ER just fine.

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The bones could belong to people lured in for sustenance, as we have entertained the thought of Jojen ending as paste for Bran, they could be children dead for whatever reason, there are not many left so a lot must have died somehow, or the cave could predate its occupation by the 3ER and these could be wildlings / first men, possibly killed of by the children.

 

Bookwise I ship the Starks being way darker, at least historically (Night King, Ice Eyes, having monsters like the Bolton skinners as vassals for eons, Winter is Coming...), show wise I don't think that holds.

But I'd buy that being a masterplan to promote chaos.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

The bones could belong to people lured in for sustenance, as we have entertained the thought of Jojen ending as paste for Bran, they could be children dead for whatever reason, there are not many left so a lot must have died somehow, or the cave could predate its occupation by the 3ER and these could be wildlings / first men, possibly killed of by the children.

Jojen paste isn't a thing in the show. In the show we don't even know if the Children eat meat. Most likely not as those didn't look like animal skulls. Either way those bones weren't wights or food (unless we consider cannibalism to feed 3ER or 3ER in training but there is no hint of that in the show). And bones in those conditions wouldn't last for thousands of years (they'd have a better chance in Dorne) so they can't predate the 3ER/Children.

Btw is there a reason you don't use the Quote function?

Edited by Mystical

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I find the quote function more useful when dealing with multiple people, or long posts.

Yes I was thinking of Bran / Bloodraven's sustenance. But Jojen did die before the cave in the show you are right, guess the Children were hunting for their guests.

I'm no specialist of bone decay but I'd think the cold conserves them well enough from bacteria. The decaying always happen, but can be slowed tremendously. We do find bones from ancient cultures dating one or two hundred thousands years ago.

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On 6/24/2019 at 10:13 AM, King Wyman said:

The evil Queen(s) defeated, the big bad great evil Night King destroyed, the magical boy sits on the Throne with his council of fan favorite characters, the family with the most POV chapters/scenes get 3 outta 4 happily ever afters, and peace is restored to the realm....

How exactly isn’t this a Disney ending? 

Because of Jon’s ending and Daenerys’ murder.

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On 6/27/2019 at 6:22 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

"I’ve had a million people tell me that was the moment that hooked them, where they said, “Well, this is just not the same story I read a million times before.” Bran is the first viewpoint character. In the back of their heads, people are thinking Bran is the hero of the story. He’s young King Arthur. We’re going to follow this young boy – and then, boom: You don’t expect something like that to happen to him. So that was successful [laughs]" (x)

Bran was Wart from The Once and Future King all along. Even though he gets injured, goes on a magical mushroom trip, receives no ruling advice, he's no longer human, he still becomes king by "magical destiny." I find this confusing and trollish more than sensical and surprising.

Bran does receive ruling advice though. His first chapter is a lesson from Ned Stark on death, justice and mercy. 

And Book 2 Bran rules Winterfell with Maester Luwin advising him. 

I think King Bran the Broken would’ve been more obvious if the 5 year timeskip happened or the characters aged as fast as he wanted them too.

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