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L’Age d’or

Sansa's backing out should have ended up with all others claiming independence

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11 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Does it really matter if any kingdom was independent for thousands of years in the past when judging who should want to be independent now?  The North has been part of the seven kingdoms for over 300 years.  That's longer than the history of the United States.

To the dragons yes, and the dragons are dead.

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7 hours ago, SuperMario said:

Does everyone forget Yara was promised to be a queen of the Iron Islands from Dany? She was all set to be independent already. Now that Dany is dead, she's just cool being ruled again?

Haha. Yara explaining to her Ironborn that they now owe fealty to a strange kid in a wheelchair is a scene we were deprived of.  

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Just now, Erkan12 said:

To the dragons yes, and the dragons are dead.

So what?  They didn't immediately go independent when Robert took the throne, or even when Joffrey took the throne.  They haven't been independent for several generations now.  Past independence really gives them no more right to going independent now than to any of the other kingdoms, many of which were also independent at one time.

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16 minutes ago, L’Age d’or said:

They are Andals wtf? Only Starks a couple other houses claim to be able to trace their bloodline to the First Men. Also the North makes up only a 3rd of Westeros.

Where did you get your info from?

Every House north of The Neck has the blood of the First men, except Manderlys who came to the North from The Reach.

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4 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

So what?  They didn't immediately go independent when Robert took the throne, or even when Joffrey took the throne.  They haven't been independent for several generations now.  Past independence really gives them no more right to going independent now than to any of the other kingdoms, many of which were also independent at one time.

Because Ned was Robert's friend, and Robert fought for Lyanna Stark, that's why.

It would be sooner if Robert's Rebellion didn't happen, after burning Rickard Stark and killing Brandon Stark, and the Red Wedding happened, the North have had enough.

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8 hours ago, L’Age d’or said:

Dorne and the Iron Islands have always been as ready to proclaim their own kingdoms; I was expecting them to jump on the opportunity and set the whole elect a new king into shambles. What's the point of lords and ladies of Westeros to vote a king if they can call themselves kings and queens? 

Not only do I agree they should have, it would have ended up much more like my original prediction and hope. I'd hoped all the lords and lady's would form a great council over important issues, but ultimately been independent, which would mean strong alliances but the opportunity to rule themselves without too many worries

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1 minute ago, north of the wall said:

Not only do I agree they should have, it would have ended up much more like my original prediction and hope. I'd hoped all the lords and ladies would form a great council over important issues, but ultimately been independent, which would mean strong alliances but the opportunity to rule themselves without too many worries

Thank you.

Now how hard would that have been to do?

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6 hours ago, btfu806 said:

I don't get why at the very least the Iron Islands didn't demand independence. They already had once.... They don't seem to be fans of the new King. Why wouldn't they?

They didn't have the power to do so. They were decimated. And nobody else would have willingly agreed to have them return to independence and reaving. Dorne might have had sufficient strength left to demand independence, but of course we know very little about what's happening there.

I think the ending might have been about the same if everyone split, but the way it ended is not unreasonable. 

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George R R Martin:

Quote

Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

Again most everyone could claim they are descended from the First Men if they cared to, the point is that no one is just an Andal or First men. Claiming Starks deserve to be independent cause they are not Andals is ridiculous.

The North is a 3rd of Westeros:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/North#Geography

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Quote

I don't get why at the very least the Iron Islands didn't demand independence. They already had once.... They don't seem to be fans of the new King. Why wouldn't they?

a) More than half of them fought on the wrong (Cerseis) side

b) Only a few of them fought the dead

IIRc correctly Sansa wanted the independence of the North as a reward for their suffering.  I would have liked Yara asking for an own kingdom and Bran denying the request. 

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Bran becoming king was just bizarre. He's no leader at all, doesn't know how to rule and doesn't have any affection for anything? He also basically didn't do anything the last few seasons? We didn't even got to see him go back in the past this season..

But yes, it should have ended with all kingdoms becoming independent imo. KL was in ashes, the Iron Throne destroyed.. Although within decades that would result in tensions again...

The North deserved to become independent but the reasons for it were a bit random tbh.

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24 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

They didn't have the power to do so. They were decimated. And nobody else would have willingly agreed to have them return to independence and reaving. Dorne might have had sufficient strength left to demand independence, but of course we know very little about what's happening there.

I think the ending might have been about the same if everyone split, but the way it ended is not unreasonable. 

Ironborn decimated more than the North? C'mon.

If anyone tips the favor it's Sweet Robin a future husband to Sansa I guess :> If Vale joined with Iron Islands and Dorne against the rest of the Seven Kingdoms... Bran you need that Drogon!

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30 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

Not only do I agree they should have, it would have ended up much more like my original prediction and hope. I'd hoped all the lords and lady's would form a great council over important issues, but ultimately been independent, which would mean strong alliances but the opportunity to rule themselves without too many worries

D&D love the Starks, so they can get whatever they want from daddy Benioff. Everybody has to go along with it, even prince of Dorne who held the best position to crave out his own kingdom. 

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38 minutes ago, Wolfking007 said:

Every House north of The Neck has the blood of the First men, except Manderlys who came to the North from The Reach.

There are many houses who claim to be from the First Men south of the Neck too which as I said is technically possible due to the high rate of mixing over thousands of years. But nobody is non-Andal or non-First Man. 

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The North is the only kingdom that is defined geographically by a defensive position. The borders between Dorne, Reach, Stormlands, etc. are like Europe: fungible. The North is like the UK, only it is almost rather than completely a separate island.

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15 minutes ago, TwiceBorn said:

Ironborn decimated more than the North? C'mon.

If anyone tips the favor it's Sweet Robin a future husband to Sansa I guess :> If Vale joined with Iron Islands and Dorne against the rest of the Seven Kingdoms... Bran you need that Drogon!

The Iron Born were much weaker than the North to begin with. If nothing else, take a look at a map. And yes, the Ironborn are probably more decimated because, among other things, their ships were torched.

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18 minutes ago, L’Age d’or said:

D&D love the Starks, so they can get whatever they want from daddy Benioff. Everybody has to go along with it, even prince of Dorne who held the best position to crave out his own kingdom. 

So what does that mean for the books? If the show ending is similar to the books we still get Bran as king don't we? And Sansa ruling an independent North? So are you sure it's because D&D love the Starks? Seems more like GRRM loving the Starks imo. (which is fine, but I thought he loved all his other characters too)

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10 minutes ago, L’Age d’or said:

There are many houses who claim to be from the First Men south of the Neck too which as I said is technically possible due to the high rate of mixing over thousands of years. But nobody is non-Andal or non-First Man. 

That might be true, there are some Houses that are claiming to be blood of the first men like Blackwoods and they are minority south of the neck. But The North has never been conquered by the Andals, and First men kept their domination over the land north of the neck despite all of the "migrations".

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2 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

So what does that mean for the books? If the show ending is similar to the books we still get Bran as king don't we? And Sansa ruling an independent North? So are you sure it's because D&D love the Starks? Seems more like GRRM loving the Starks imo. (which is fine, but I thought he loved all his other characters too)

Isn't the whole subversion of expectations is what this is all about? I suspect that D&D used this as a justification to make big changes and write the ending of GOT in their own hand as much as they could. I don't think Martin would have Arya eliminate the WW threat or have Sansa turn into a snarky teen who can't stay civil for a moment; raze KL to prove a moral point etc. 

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