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Sansa's backing out should have ended up with all others claiming independence

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9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Theon referred to Yara as queen earlier in the season, so I think the Iron Islands are also independent. In a way, this makes sense, seeing as both regions failed to assimilate and already largely operate on their own. While the same could be said for Dorne, one big difference is that Dorne follows the Faith of the Seven, and having a common religion goes a long way in forming a nation.

It wouldn't surprise me if both the North and Iron Islands are independent at the end of ASOIAF. How they get that way, I'm certain, will be much more clever than what the show gave us.

Yep. Begining of the season we have an independent kingdom of the Iron Islands, Yara being queen, approved by Dany.

She leaves after being freed by Theon, to take back the Iron Islands from Euron, doesn't help Dany in her battle for the throne.

Why the fuck is she at this council meeting at all is the question!? If the Iron Islands are already an independent kingdom, there is no reason for her to be presnet at this meeting, and if the Iron Islands are not an independent kingdom, they are  part of the Northern kingdom, as they were before,( the iron islands are not one of the 7 kingdoms) and she doesn't get to vote, her ass is under Sansas rule.

 

I hate this council meeting scene the most in the entire season of illogical events.

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46 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Yep. Begining of the season we have an independent kingdom of the Iron Islands, Yara being queen, approved by Dany.

She leaves after being freed by Theon, to take back the Iron Islands from Euron, doesn't help Dany in her battle for the throne.

Why the fuck is she at this council meeting at all is the question!? If the Iron Islands are already an independent kingdom, there is no reason for her to be presnet at this meeting, and if the Iron Islands are not an independent kingdom, they are  part of the Northern kingdom, as they were before,( the iron islands are not one of the 7 kingdoms) and she doesn't get to vote, her ass is under Sansas rule.

 

I hate this council meeting scene the most in the entire season of illogical events.

They were never part of the North, before Targs they were independent kingdom.  The Riverlands were under their control at time Targs arrive, and their capitol was Harrenhall.

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14 hours ago, hallam said:

The North is the only kingdom that is defined geographically by a defensive position. The borders between Dorne, Reach, Stormlands, etc. are like Europe: fungible. The North is like the UK, only it is almost rather than completely a separate island.

Dorne is absolutely geographically defensible--the border consists of a mountain range, and past that is desert.  The Iron Islands are islands.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Ser Lepus said:

All the other Kingdoms were independent for thousand of years, and most of them were ruled by ancient families... The Lannisters, the Arryns, and the Martells are as ancient as the Starks. The Tyrells not so much, but the Hightowers are easily as old as the Starks...

ALL of Westeros have the blood of the First Men. The Lannisters are descended from the First Men. The Hightowers are descended from the First Men. The Cranes are descended from the First Men. The Bracken are descended from the First Men. The Blackwoods are descended from the Firs Men. The Yronwood are descended from the First Men. The Daynes are descended from the First Men.

The Tyrells and the Florents are descended from the Gardeners, who were a royal family among the First Men.

Hell, the Farwynds from the Iron Islands, the Cranes from the Reach and the Blackwoods of the Riverlands have a reputation of producing Skinchangers due to their strong First Men's blood!

As for the commoners, they all have more First Men blood than Andal blood... the Andals came as a warrior class of conquerors that intermarried with the nobility of the First Men, but the peasants were mostly First Men even after the Andal conquest...

Yes you are right, I didn't highlight this and it made it seem like I was saying that only a few select houses are descended from First Men but many families that people may think are typical Andal houses (e.g. Lannister) trace their roots back to the Age of Heroes. Thank you for the correction, and it points out even more the folly of thinking the Starks are special because they are descended from First Men.

Quote

They were never part of the North, before Targs they were independent kingdom.  The Riverlands were under their control at time Targs arrive, and their capitol was Harrenhall.

Typical Northern propaganda :D

Edited by El Diego

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War is certain. Making a northerner king of the realm might put it off for a while, but not forever. The south is vastly richer and more populous, so unless the rest of the realm fractures the war will be pretty one-sided.

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Posted (edited)

It’s worth noting that Sansa/Starks and/Stark supporters were hugely overrepresented in that meeting. It was basically the North and her Vale admirers and her uncle and personal protector, Jon’s best bud and some cut-outs who were Dorne and...?

Edited by James Arryn

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Posted (edited)

Why did Sansa rise to hail Bran as king if she declared independence? She should have been escorted out the moment it was agreed to by Bran.

Also, the north being independent probably means that in the books the North does manage to get its independence, it just won't be baseless.

Edited by NonoNono

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Posted (edited)

Yara is probably going to wait until she is further away from the person who just threatened to slash her throat (and likely could) before asserting her independence.  Dorne has kind of been "hands-off" independent anyways not getting involves in the war of the three kings until after it was over and even then sending like a single representative.  Probably was hard enough to show support for your past queen while sitting in Kings Landing.  Then again maybe they rebuilt that as quick as they rebuild ships and armies.  

Edited by RFL

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24 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

War is certain. Making a northerner king of the realm might put it off for a while, but not forever. The south is vastly richer and more populous, so unless the rest of the realm fractures the war will be pretty one-sided.

Bran could live long enough to outlive Sansa's grandchildren, all he needs is to plant a weirwood tree near by. North has never been conquered before so I don't see why would they need to be afraid of South in the future. 

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Just now, Wolfking007 said:

Bran could live long enough to outlive Sansa's grandchildren, all he needs is to plant a weirwood tree near by. North has never been conquered before so I don't see why would they need to be afraid of South in the future. 

There has never been only 2 kingdoms, either. The North was one of the more powerful kingdoms, difficult ground to invade and difficult ground to hold once taken. No other single kingdom could even hope to invade and take out the north.

It's a different story with the other 6 kingdoms united. This is a very difficult position for the north to occupy, and although things might look rosy at the moment, in the long-run this one-sided Stark-favoring peace deal is going to leave a bitter taste in the mouth of everybody else: for an historical example, look at Germany's reaction to Versailles (https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_the_Versailles_Treaty_lead_to_World_War_Two%3F). 

Again, the manpower and economic power of the north is far inferior to the combined south. If they're gonna remain independent, it is going to take some mighty fine diplomacy and espionage.

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But WHY invade the north?  Assume you make it past Moat Cailin from the south, past Howland Reed and the rest in the marshes, assume the Nights Watch does not interfere, and that whatever Stark blood is left doesn't warg into fantastical creatures and destroy you what have you gained?  Even Stannis was not familiar with all the small time Lords in the North and had to have Jon help show him where they were to try to recruit.  Bear Island was not able to give Mormont's wife, from the south, the life she wanted and Mormont had to attempt slave trading (and be banished) for it.  

Assume you take the north.  Who wants it?  How do you keep it?  What have you gained?  The north remembers and while a foreign lord may hold it for a short time it will rise up again.  

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22 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

There has never been only 2 kingdoms, either. The North was one of the more powerful kingdoms, difficult ground to invade and difficult ground to hold once taken. No other single kingdom could even hope to invade and take out the north.

It's a different story with the other 6 kingdoms united. This is a very difficult position for the north to occupy, and although things might look rosy at the moment, in the long-run this one-sided Stark-favoring peace deal is going to leave a bitter taste in the mouth of everybody else: for an historical example, look at Germany's reaction to Versailles (https://dailyhistory.org/How_did_the_Versailles_Treaty_lead_to_World_War_Two%3F). 

Again, the manpower and economic power of the north is far inferior to the combined south. If they're gonna remain independent, it is going to take some mighty fine diplomacy and espionage.

South is definitly economicaly stronger, but has also always been divided by various inner conflicts (Martell VS Tyrell etc). Sansa is already allied with vale and riverlands, and now has more than enough time to rebuild north. It doesn't matter anyway, story is over. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Yep. Begining of the season we have an independent kingdom of the Iron Islands, Yara being queen, approved by Dany.

She leaves after being freed by Theon, to take back the Iron Islands from Euron, doesn't help Dany in her battle for the throne.

Why the fuck is she at this council meeting at all is the question!? If the Iron Islands are already an independent kingdom, there is no reason for her to be presnet at this meeting, and if the Iron Islands are not an independent kingdom, they are  part of the Northern kingdom, as they were before,( the iron islands are not one of the 7 kingdoms) and she doesn't get to vote, her ass is under Sansas rule.

 

I hate this council meeting scene the most in the entire season of illogical events.

 

10 hours ago, Wolfking007 said:

They were never part of the North, before Targs they were independent kingdom.  The Riverlands were under their control at time Targs arrive, and their capitol was Harrenhall.

Yep. The Iron Islands conquered and unified the Riverlands, their king were the Hoares and their capital was Harrenhal. When Aegon I conquered Westeros and exterminated the Hoares, the Tullies sided with the Targaryen, so Aegon made them Lords Paramount of the Riverlands, but he split the Iron Islands from the Riverlands and allowed them to choose a new king among their own...

You know, it is funny how so many people who all "Hooray! Independence for the North!" are so in favor of starting a new hegemony with Winterfell at its head... they want Sansa to rule not just the North, but also the Iron Islands, the Riverlands and the Vale, and that makes no sense...

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ser Lepus

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13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And those Andal nobles didn't father bastards on the peasants and the serving folk?

Yeah. So? The mothers of those bastards were still of First Men stock.

Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Rickon... etc., were all half Stark and half Targaryen or half Tully, but they still see themselves as descendants of the First Men, don't they?

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Several real world kingdoms elected and invited someone to be their king who was related to an already long established royal family of other kingdoms and ultimately became hereditary. Belgium chose a German Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as King Leopold I, the first King of the Belgians. And that family actually managed to marry into a lot of European royal lines, a type of pre-cursor to establishing kingdoms that were more or less at peace, once empires imploded and before some tried to be an empire again.

Seems to me that the Starks in the finale sort of take after that family (Saxe-Coburg-Gotha), which sortof make sense if you end up with Dany being like Robespierre and Napoleon Bonaparte in one, while Aegon the Conquerer was more like the Spanish emperor Charles I. Even though you lack a renaissance and middle class formation in Westeros.

That said, I do agree that neither Dorne nor IB ever have shown themselves to rationally prefer being part of the 6 kingdoms, but instead preferred independence. And for both cultural and religious reasons respectively it makes sense. I think the real issue for them is that are far more dependent on food supply from the rest of Westeros, with Dorne being a desert and the Iron Islands barren, nor are they anywhere near the size of the North. And that scene was quite ridiculous.

Completely different kind of beast. Leopold I's main attractive was his relation to the British royal family, which sorta guaranteed that UK would defend Belgium against France and Netherlands. Plus the people who wanted a king for Belgium were rich people afraid of what the republicans (that unwashed mob!) would do if allowed to take control...

The situation in Westeros is completely different... if the North splits, why would the lords of the south want the northeners to meddle in southern affairs?

As for Charles I = Aegon I... just not. Charles I wasn't a "Spanish Emperor". He was a the heir of the Spanish crown(s) (at that time the several kingdoms of Spain were still separate entities, even if the same guy ruled them all) from his mother side, and of the Duchy of Burgundy and of the Habsburg Austria from his father's side. He was voted emperor of the Holy Roman Empire by the electors (after spending a lot of money in bribes) thanks to his Austrian blood.

As a matter of fact, Charles I grew in Burgundy and didn't learn Spanish (Castilian) until after being crowned King of Spain. He was seen as a foreigner by the Spaniards, and he brought lots of Flemish advisors to the court.

Aegon I, on the other hand, was a conqueror. He landed on Westeros and told them "surrender or die". He conquered Westeros by raw force...

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14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The Lannisters is a family as old as the Starks, except they weren't kings as the Starks were. Same for the Hightowers: as old, but no kings.

The Arryns are Andals and about 4000 years younger than the Starks and Lannisters. The Arryns and the Andals though do have a nack in trying to muddy the history by inserting themselves into earlier times, by claiming the Falcon Knight was an Arryn, while he clearly wasn't as he predated the Arryns and knighthood was an Andal invention. So, the Falcon Knight was not a knight and no Arryn.

The Martells exist and rule only for 1000 years. Nymeria fled Essos and the oppression of Valyria with her people, arrived at Dorne and started House Martell.

The IB have been around for longer than the Andals, but the Greyjoys haven't always been the Kings.

The Hightowers were kings until conquered by the Gardeners. The base of the Hightower, their ancestral keep, is unbelievably ancient, predating even the arrival of the First Men to Westeros, having being probably made by some previous wave of colonists...

The Lannisters were kings of the Westerlands (their official title was "Kings of the Rock") before the Targaryen.

It is true that the Arryns are Andals, but, as Sam said, since the First Men didn't have a written history, the supposed age of their dinasties can't be taken seriously, since all those stories were written centuries after the Andal conquest. The Starks may be 4000 years older than the Arryns, or 400 years older, or maybe just 100 years older... we don't know...

The Martells predate Nymeria by centuries or thousands of years. Nymeria arrived to Dorne, married the lord Martell, and together conquered Dorne.

As a matter of fact, the true name of House Martell is Martell-Nymeros, a combination of lord Martell's and princess Nymeria's surnames.

By the way, the Yronwoods and the Daynes were ancient kings of First Men stock...

I said nothing about the Greyjoys.

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12 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

As for Charles I = Aegon I... just not. Charles I wasn't a "Spanish Emperor". He was a the heir of the Spanish crown(s) (at that time the several kingdoms of Spain were still separate entities, even if the same guy ruled them all) from his mother side, and of the Duchy of Burgundy and of the Habsburg Austria from his father's side. He was voted emperor of the Holy Roman Empire by the electors (after spending a lot of money in bribes) thanks to his Austrian blood.

As a matter of fact, Charles I grew in Burgundy and didn't learn Spanish (Castilian) until after being crowned King of Spain. He was seen as a foreigner by the Spaniards, and he brought lots of Flemish advisors to the court. 

Aegon I, on the other hand, was a conqueror. He landed on Westeros and told them "surrender or die". He conquered Westeros by raw force...

Hmmm, I live in Antwerp, where Charles I sent Alva to tell us "surrender or die". And yes, I know he grew up in Flanders. You forget how he is associated with the Conquistadores of the Americas. He ratified the conquest of both the Aztecs in Mexico and the Incas in Peru.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Hmmm, I live in Antwerp, where Charles I sent Alva to tell us "surrender or die". And yes, I know he grew up in Flanders. You forget how he is associated with the Conquistadores of the Americas. He ratified the conquest of both the Aztecs in Mexico and the Incas in Peru.

Still, he wasn't an outsider. The Habsburgs were princes of the Holy Roman Empire, and he owed his imperial crown to that. He wasn't a foreigner landing on Germany with dragons...

As for America, Charles didn't even know much about America when Cortez and Pizarro conquered Mexico and Peru. His main initiative with regards to that was to finance Magallanes's expedition to find a maritime route to Asia, to get into the spice trade, and to tell the Spaniards to keep the American money flowing...

Then somebody told him about the conquest of Mexico and Peru, which was a pleasant surprise, but he never cared much for America save as a source of money... It was his son Felipe II who decided to stop adventurers and establish greater control over the colonization of America.

 

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2 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

The Hightowers were kings until conquered by the Gardeners. The base of the Hightower, their ancestral keep, is unbelievably ancient, predating even the arrival of the First Men to Westeros, having being probably made by some previous wave of colonists...

The Lannisters were kings of the Westerlands (their official title was "Kings of the Rock") before the Targaryen.

It is true that the Arryns are Andals, but, as Sam said, since the First Men didn't have a written history, the supposed age of their dinasties can't be taken seriously, since all those stories were written centuries after the Andal conquest. The Starks may be 4000 years older than the Arryns, or 400 years older, or maybe just 100 years older... we don't know...

The Martells predate Nymeria by centuries or thousands of years. Nymeria arrived to Dorne, married the lord Martell, and together conquered Dorne.

As a matter of fact, the true name of House Martell is Martell-Nymeros, a combination of lord Martell's and princess Nymeria's surnames.

By the way, the Yronwoods and the Daynes were ancient kings of First Men stock...

I said nothing about the Greyjoys.

Hightowers were petty kings of the High Tower petty kingdom, and were then conquered and annexed by the Kings of the Reach, the Gardeners. I know about the fused black stone mazelike structure beneath the Hightower. It's up there with the mysterious mazes of the mazebuilders of Lorath, the 5 fortress towers north of Yi Ti, and Yeen of Sotoryos. It is possible the Hightowers are descendants of these earlier non-FM, but the world book also equally says the builders of the structure on the island beneath the tower have disappeared. Not even the Hightowers seemed to have a legend to explain the name of the island, which is war related.

The Lannisters initially were not kings at all, not even petty kings. Only at a much later date before the arrival of the Andals, did they manage to become kings.

House Martell was an Andal House, before joining with Nymeria's rule. Martells aren't First Men. And yes, the Daynes and Yronwoods were petty kings too once, and are FM.

So, of the petty kings of the First Men only the Starks have been able to start out as petty kings, become regional king of an actual kingdom and survived the conquering of Aegon, whereas the Gardeners did not.

Not that I care so much about that, but when someone says that the Starks have been kings the longest while remaining (imo culturally) First Men, they are correct.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Hightowers were petty kings of the High Tower petty kingdom, and were then conquered and annexed by the Kings of the Reach, the Gardeners. I know about the fused black stone mazelike structure beneath the Hightower. It's up there with the mysterious mazes of the mazebuilders of Lorath, the 5 fortress towers north of Yi Ti, and Yeen of Sotoryos. It is possible the Hightowers are descendants of these earlier non-FM, but the world book also equally says the builders of the structure on the island beneath the tower have disappeared. Not even the Hightowers seemed to have a legend to explain the name of the island, which is war related.

The Lannisters initially were not kings at all, not even petty kings. Only at a much later date before the arrival of the Andals, did they manage to become kings.

House Martell was an Andal House, before joining with Nymeria's rule. Martells aren't First Men. And yes, the Daynes and Yronwoods were petty kings too once, and are FM.

So, of the petty kings of the First Men only the Starks have been able to start out as petty kings, become regional king of an actual kingdom and survived the conquering of Aegon, whereas the Gardeners did not.

Not that I care so much about that, but when someone says that the Starks have been kings the longest while remaining (imo culturally) First Men, they are correct.

But it is kinda absurd to say that, say the Vale hasn't the same right as the North to become independent because the Arryns have been ruling them as kings only for 6000 years... I think 6000 years is quite enough time to develop a national identity...

Same goes for the Lannisters. Even the Nymeros-Martell are pretty old, a thousand years is a lot of time...

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