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Sansa's backing out should have ended up with all others claiming independence

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On 5/20/2019 at 10:28 PM, Wolfking007 said:

Every House north of The Neck has the blood of the First men, except Manderlys who came to the North from The Reach.

And a lot of houses South of the Neck have First Men blood. The origins of the Lannisters and the Tyrells go back to the time of heroes just like the Starks' do. The Arryns are exceptional in that they claim to be "pure" Andals. And the Thenns (in the books) take pride in claiming that they are the only "pure" First Men left, so according to them even the other Wildlings have mixed with Andals by now (possibly through Night's Watch defectors?)

Genetically pretty much everyone from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne is a mix of Andal and First Man, The difference between the North/the Iron Islands/Dorne and the rest of the Kingdoms is that those three regions each have a distinct culture and (at least to some extend in the case of Dorne) a distinct religion, while the rest of the continent is a single, Andal culture with some local flavours. So for those three regions there is at least some reason to go independent (I still think it's a stupid idea, but w/e) so it would have made sense for Yara and Dorne's Amazing Nameless Surprise Prince to follow Sansa's lead in declaring independence.

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On 5/21/2019 at 3:28 AM, SansaJonRule said:

He committed the crime in Kings Landing, therefore it fell under the jurisdiction of the king in KL. That was plainly stated. Being sent to the wall was a life sentence-a compromise between executing him and pardoning him.

Uh Jamie murdered a Targaryan and nothing happened.  KL just allowed the North to become their own kingdom.  Therefore, KL has no jurisdiction once that border is crossed.  So, again, after the compromise was made there was nothing stopping it from NOT being enforced once Jon entered the North.  

And to your response that KL would respond with War is not possible.  Bran king (brother). Tyrion hand (doesn't want war and actually likes Jon).  Vale are all related to the North.  Riverlands are all related to the North.  Stormlands are under Gendry and I imagine he doesn't want to go to war.  Dorne has no reason to go fight a war since they've sat out the last several.  And Iron Islands are a joke at this point. 

So, again, there was nothing stopping that from happening.  It would have been more satisfying if it were offered to Jon and it turned it down after killing Dany.  Could have believed that more.

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On 5/21/2019 at 1:38 AM, Ser Lepus said:

All the other Kingdoms were independent for thousand of years, and most of them were ruled by ancient families... The Lannisters, the Arryns, and the Martells are as ancient as the Starks. The Tyrells not so much, but the Hightowers are easily as old as the Starks...

ALL of Westeros have the blood of the First Men. The Lannisters are descended from the First Men. The Hightowers are descended from the First Men. The Cranes are descended from the First Men. The Bracken are descended from the First Men. The Blackwoods are descended from the Firs Men. The Yronwood are descended from the First Men. The Daynes are descended from the First Men.

The Tyrells and the Florents are descended from the Gardeners, who were a royal family among the First Men.

Hell, the Farwynds from the Iron Islands, the Cranes from the Reach and the Blackwoods of the Riverlands have a reputation of producing Skinchangers due to their strong First Men's blood!

As for the commoners, they all have more First Men blood than Andal blood... the Andals came as a warrior class of conquerors that intermarried with the nobility of the First Men, but the peasants were mostly First Men even after the Andal conquest...

The Arryns and Martells are Andal houses, the later mixed with Rhoynar since Nymeria. Not as ancient as the houses of the First Men. The Martells are still feuding with the First Men Yronwoods and House Royce seems to be sitting pretty in the Vale. Yohn has Robin on a leash.

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If you are going to declare your independence you might as well do it from YOUR castle with your armies around you and the geographic separation preventing your enemies from just grabbing you and tossing you in chains.  Yara and the rest would have been fools to claim independence well sitting there.  It would have been as useful as Ned's father marching into Kings Landing without an army and demanding justice.  

Sansa could claim it because she did have her army sitting outside the gates to come to her rescue if things went badly (presumably).  Besides look at the strength of arms at that council meeting.  Brienne and Arya could have cut down everyone there with only a momentary hiccup trying to deal with Grey Worm and Yara (who was not you will note carrying a spear).  

 

This is a duplicate of another post I made - it is more appropriate here

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It's pretty ludicrous that we're to expect everyone is fine with a Stark becoming king despite the Starks themselves seceding from the Seven Kingdoms. It'd be like electing Jefferson Davis president of the United States even after he openly supported secession. 

Also, why was everyone else fine with the Starks themselves getting three votes, plus essentially three more thanks to the presence of Stark lackeys Sam, Brienne, and Davos?

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6 minutes ago, TheTuninator said:

It's pretty ludicrous that we're to expect everyone is fine with a Stark becoming king despite the Starks themselves seceding from the Seven Kingdoms. It'd be like electing Jefferson Davis president of the United States even after he openly supported secession. 

Also, why was everyone else fine with the Starks themselves getting three votes, plus essentially three more thanks to the presence of Stark lackeys Sam, Brienne, and Davos?

Only Sansa voted. The Starks and their friends won. That had to be illustrated.

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3 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

The Arryns and Martells are Andal houses, the later mixed with Rhoynar since Nymeria. Not as ancient as the houses of the First Men. The Martells are still feuding with the First Men Yronwoods and House Royce seems to be sitting pretty in the Vale. Yohn has Robin on a leash.

The point is, the blood of the First Men isn't that special, lots of people have it. 

As for the Andal houses, the Arryns are 6000 years old... at that point, do a few thousands years more make a difference... specially, when the lack of written records make impossible to know how old each house really is...

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10 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

The point is, the blood of the First Men isn't that special, lots of people have it. 

As for the Andal houses, the Arryns are 6000 years old... at that point, do a few thousands years more make a difference... specially, when the lack of written records make impossible to know how old each house really is...

Yeah, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of the North is First men while the majority of the rest of the 6 kingdoms is Andals.

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1 minute ago, Ser Lepus said:

The point is, the blood of the First Men isn't that special, lots of people have it. 

As for the Andal houses, the Arryns are 6000 years old... at that point, do a few thousands years more make a difference... specially, when the lack of written records make impossible to know how old each house really is...

I am part of the 'First Men interbred with COTF' faction. At least the most senior of them did. That is how magic entered the First Men bloodline and it will mirror whatever we find out Valyria did with dragon blood. There are stories in the supplementary material that suggest weird interbreeding across the known world. Most notably:

Quote

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant's Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

I think this is an older story co-opted into the new Andal culture. Like how the story of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield from the Age of Heroes is sung about as a knight of the kingsguard.

There is also the history and lore of House Reed on the show DVD:

Quote

But through our veins flows the same blood of the First Men, and - at times - maybe something more.

And how Bran thinks Leaf is uncannily like his sister

Quote

 A cloud of ravens was pouring from the cave, and he saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that. For a moment Bran thought it was his sister Arya … madly, for he knew his little sister was a thousand leagues away, or dead. And yet there she was, whirling, a scrawny thing, ragged, wild, her hair atangle. 

When magic was at its height in Westeros, weird stuff was happening.

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4 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

I am part of the 'First Men interbred with COTF' faction. At least the most senior of them did. That is how magic entered the First Men bloodline and it will mirror whatever we find out Valyria did with dragon blood. There are stories in the supplementary material that suggest weird interbreeding across the known world. 

Yep, but there are (First Men) families with skinchanging powers out of the North; the Farwynds, the Cranes and the Blackwoods, for example... so it seems the blood of the CotF was passed down in the south too.

As for seer powers, families in the south have them too... the Tolands, for example...

5 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Yeah, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of the North is First men while the majority of the rest of the 6 kingdoms is Andals.

Not really... like half of the southern noble families are of First Men origin, and the commoners everywhere have more FM than Andal blood...

And the Starks themselves intermarried with Andal noble houses... the Tullies, for example...

The Starks' FM blood is thinner than their own commoners'

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3 hours ago, RFL said:

If you are going to declare your independence you might as well do it from YOUR castle with your armies around you and the geographic separation preventing your enemies from just grabbing you and tossing you in chains.  Yara and the rest would have been fools to claim independence well sitting there.  It would have been as useful as Ned's father marching into Kings Landing without an army and demanding justice.  

Sansa could claim it because she did have her army sitting outside the gates to come to her rescue if things went badly (presumably).  Besides look at the strength of arms at that council meeting.  Brienne and Arya could have cut down everyone there with only a momentary hiccup trying to deal with Grey Worm and Yara (who was not you will note carrying a spear).  

 

This is a duplicate of another post I made - it is more appropriate here

To me, this means that Bran has no army. 

 

When Jon was fighting with Dany to claim KL, the Northmen was his army. 

 

All of a sudden they become Sansa's. That leaves Bran with....

 

Who is in Bran's army? If other regions want freedom as would make logical sense who does he have that would stop them? 

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5 hours ago, TheTuninator said:

It's pretty ludicrous that we're to expect everyone is fine with a Stark becoming king despite the Starks themselves seceding from the Seven Kingdoms. It'd be like electing Jefferson Davis president of the United States even after he openly supported secession. 

Also, why was everyone else fine with the Starks themselves getting three votes, plus essentially three more thanks to the presence of Stark lackeys Sam, Brienne, and Davos?

You slightly understate your analogy.  This would be electing Jefferson Davis as president of the Union states as the South seceded and selected their own president.

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9 hours ago, TheTuninator said:

It's pretty ludicrous that we're to expect everyone is fine with a Stark becoming king despite the Starks themselves seceding from the Seven Kingdoms. It'd be like electing Jefferson Davis president of the United States even after he openly supported secession. 

Not necessarily.  There have been instances of foreign-born kings being elected.  For example, Poland elected a Saxon duke as their King.  The King of France came very close to being elected the Holy Roman Emperor.  The Hapsburgs held the titles of King of Hungary and King of Bohemia (maybe those were combined), yet were routinely elected Holy Roman Emperor.  Emperor Karl V was also King of Aragon and King of Castille.

9 hours ago, TheTuninator said:

Also, why was everyone else fine with the Starks themselves getting three votes, plus essentially three more thanks to the presence of Stark lackeys Sam, Brienne, and Davos?

I didnt think that the Starks voted.    So they  had 0 votes.

Sam is from the Reach.  He could also represent the Citadel and the NW.  He might be Jon's friend, but is not a Stark lackey.

Brienne is from Tarth, which is in the Stormlands.

Davos did say that he wasn't sure that he got a vote.  He has land in the Stormlands.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Ser Lepus said:

 

Not really... like half of the southern noble families are of First Men origin, and the commoners everywhere have more FM than Andal blood...

And the Starks themselves intermarried with Andal noble houses... the Tullies, for example...

The Starks' FM blood is thinner than their own commoners'

Andals conquered all other kingdoms except for the North, so I don't see how the majority of the North wasn't first men,

The most important difference is that the North still kept faith in the old gods while the other kingdoms started to believe in the new; faith of the seven.

As Greatjon says;

Quote

"MYLORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. " Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"

 

Edited by RYShh

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Andals conquered all other kingdoms except for the North, so I don't see how the majority of the North wasn't first men,

The most important difference is that the North still kept faith in the old gods while the other kingdoms started to believe in the new; faith of the seven.

As Greatjon says;

The World of Ice and Fire offers a lot of information about the origins of the noble families of Westeros: About half of them are of First Men origin... Blackwoods, Hightowers, Lannisters, Cranes, Yronwoods, Dayne... etc.

As for the Andal conquerors, almost all of them took FM wives. The Florents and Tyrells among others were born from the marriage between an Andal noble and a Gardener (FM) wife...

As for the FM commoners, they weren't killed or expelled, they were forced to convert to the Seven, while the Andal conquerors became nobility.

Yes, the northeners kept the old religion, but in never looked like a problem... there are Seven worshippers in the North (Manderly, Jeor and Jorah Mormont...) and Old Gods worshippers in the South (the Blackwoods).

Edited by Ser Lepus

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15 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

The World of Ice and Fire offers a lot of information about the origins of the noble families of Westeros: About half of them are of First Men origin... Blackwoods, Hightowers, Lannisters, Cranes, Yronwoods, Dayne... etc.

As for the Andal conquerors, almost all of them took FM wives. The Florents and Tyrells among others were born from the marriage between an Andal noble and a Gardener (FM) wife...

As for the FM commoners, they weren't killed or expelled, they were forced to convert to the Seven, while the Andal conquerors became nobility.

Yes, the northeners kept the old religion, but in never looked like a problem... there are Seven worshippers in the North (Manderly, Jeor and Jorah Mormont...) and Old Gods worshippers in the South (the Blackwoods).

Yes, and what was my first post? The majority, I didn't say all of them, the majority is different in the North.

In the south, the majority is andal, and they believe in the new gods, 

In the north, the majority is first men, and they believe in the old gods,

You're acting like I said all of them, no, I said only majority of the north.

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20 hours ago, ARYa_Nym said:

Who is in Bran's army? If other regions want freedom as would make logical sense who does he have that would stop them? 

Why do you think he wanted to find Drogon? Who needs an army when you can get yourself a dragon. I fully believe he went to look for Drogon to see if he could warg him and bring him back to Westeros as his weapon/army.

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