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Who was Daenerys turned into?

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In any case, Daenerys is a marriage between Robespierre and Napoleon Bonaparte. Both good men who had a really unbalanced approach; Napoleon being the better of the two

But Daenerys is different in the fact that she truly is an extraordinary woman with magic powers (that were never explained or even acknowledged/emphasized when the plot didn't demand it)

3 minutes ago, tallTale said:

They were trapped inside the city. No one was running to Cersei. Cersei was the real tyrant.

Thank you.

I wish the slaves taken from Africa and brought to the Americas had someone like Daenerys. Hell, I wish the victims of human trafficking and sexual exploitation had someone like Daenerys.

The world we would live in would be worth actually living in.

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2 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why did the King's Landing civilians run to Cersei for protection when they could've just left the city?

Riddle me that

I had a similar question with the long night plot. If show Bran knew the NK wanted just him, and Bran seems like he knew what it took to actually kill NK, why not evacuate the people south asap? Protect your people by putting them on all of those Manderly ships and GTFO. Then have the battle at Winterfell with just the warriors to minimize casualties. 

But, show plot and all :dunno:

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2 minutes ago, Saturno said:

They had no way to escape, thus having no option, thus proving that Dany's rationalization is wrong.

How is Dany's rationalization wrong?

They absolutely had a way to escape. They could've rang the bells before the city was actually attacked if that was the case.

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Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

I had a similar question with the long night plot. If show Bran knew the NK wanted just him, and Bran seems like he knew what it took to actually kill NK, why not evacuate the people south asap? Protect your people by putting them on all of those Manderly ships and GTFO. Then have the battle at Winterfell with just the warriors to minimize casualties. 

But, show plot and all :dunno:

I like how they kept mentioning White Harbor, Lord Manderly and his ships....but we never actually saw either one of those things.

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2 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

How is Dany's rationalization wrong?

They absolutely had a way to escape. They could've rang the bells before the city was actually attacked if that was the case.

First because the Bells were a contrivance invented for this episode only. This just did not exist previously. Davos even mentions on the second season that he did not understand why bells were ringing and dismissed the idea of surrender as nonsense.

Second because Dany's argument is: "if they serve Cersei as vassals they are guilty". This is nonsense and goes against Dany's initial notion of the Wheel. She wants to destroy the Wheel because monarchy opresses and hurts and forces people to obey. She is in the city to RELEASE the people from tiranny. She even says that after she burns KL on episode 6. So there is no actual difference, on these terms, between REAL chains holding prisoners, and abstract chains in the form of servitude/vassalage. Dany acted nonsensically. It was not even a case for hyppocracy, it is not even a question of being right or wrong. It was a glitch without logic.

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23 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

How is Dany's rationalization wrong?

They absolutely had a way to escape. They could've rang the bells before the city was actually attacked if that was the case.

Because if the bells would have rung 10 minutes earlier than they did, Dany would have accepted the peaceful surrender? I don’t think that is reasonable to assume. 

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3 hours ago, Starkz said:

Don’t forget Dany says she’ll go to Dorne and Winterfell too to ensure they follow her.

Also don't forget that Jon and Tyrion probably couldn't understand a word she was saying.

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1 minute ago, Tadco26 said:

Also don't forget that Jon and Tyrion probably couldn't understand a word she was saying.

Jon seemed to only understand Winterfell.

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Dany was a product of her advisors and enemies. She’s been a puppet throughout the majority of the series, minus a few occasions. She was constantly challenged and her ideas squashed by those who were supposed to be following her, and ultimately she have been betrayed in my eyes, Jon too, his own brother has in a way outed him, not protected him.... the Targaryen linage will die with John sat behind a frozen curtain, dreaming of Dany’s moon hole. 

I feel Dany’s character and story was predictable and a waste, almost like simply copying what her father did. Jon saw through it all, but ultimately he knew he had to do what he did, just to appease the nobles of KL, and the other houses. 

In short I feel Dany was used for the large part of her life, and then when she showed some sort of power, poked until she went over the edge, resulting in exactly what the lofty lords wanted. I can appreciate the book finishing without Dany, but like that? No. She series finished after the battle of Winterfell for me.

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1 minute ago, Nictarion said:

Jon seemed to only understand Winterfell.

Maybe, but Winterfell on it's own means nothing.  Was she thanking her allies from Winterfell?  Was she saying  that now she rules a kingdom including Winterfell?  I mean the slaughter of King's Landing was enough to turn Jon and Tyrion, but the speech they couldn't understand shouldn't have had any real impact on their decisions.

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6 minutes ago, Calaryion said:

Dany was a product of her advisors and enemies. She’s been a puppet throughout the majority of the series, minus a few occasions. She was constantly challenged and her ideas squashed by those who were supposed to be following her, and ultimately she have been betrayed in my eyes, Jon too, his own brother has in a way outed him, not protected him.... the Targaryen linage will die with John sat behind a frozen curtain, dreaming of Dany’s moon hole. 

I feel Dany’s character and story was predictable and a waste, almost like simply copying what her father did. Jon saw through it all, but ultimately he knew he had to do what he did, just to appease the nobles of KL, and the other houses. 

In short I feel Dany was used for the large part of her life, and then when she showed some sort of power, poked until she went over the edge, resulting in exactly what the lofty lords wanted. I can appreciate the book finishing without Dany, but like that? No. She series finished after the battle of Winterfell for me.

It's more than a bit depressing when you realize that Tyrion is directly responsible for every single one of Dany's problems on the show. He talks her out of flying right to King's Landing and incinerating Cersei before she had radar-tracking AA ballistas, which would have ended the entire war with far less bloodshed than we got in the end. He pushes the wight hunt to bring Cersei on board which is a complete failure and directly results in the death of Viserion and the WWs breaching the Wall. He lets Cersei outsmart him (which is a whole 'nother can of worms) in the Casterly Rock bit, which somehow leads to the entire Tyrell line being deleted from the face of Westeros without so much as a struggle. He spreads the information about Jon's true heritage. 

If Dany had simply flown to the Red Keep and burned Cersei alive as soon as she reached Dragonstone, none of this would ever have happened, and yet the show never lets her truly take Tyrion to task for what a monumental failure he was as Hand. I literally can't think of a single thing he did after their return to Westeros that actually helped her. 

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12 minutes ago, TheTuninator said:

It's more than a bit depressing when you realize that Tyrion is directly responsible for every single one of Dany's problems on the show. He talks her out of flying right to King's Landing and incinerating Cersei before she had radar-tracking AA ballistas, which would have ended the entire war with far less bloodshed than we got in the end. He pushes the wight hunt to bring Cersei on board which is a complete failure and directly results in the death of Viserion and the WWs breaching the Wall. He lets Cersei outsmart him (which is a whole 'nother can of worms) in the Casterly Rock bit, which somehow leads to the entire Tyrell line being deleted from the face of Westeros without so much as a struggle. He spreads the information about Jon's true heritage. 

If Dany had simply flown to the Red Keep and burned Cersei alive as soon as she reached Dragonstone, none of this would ever have happened, and yet the show never lets her truly take Tyrion to task for what a monumental failure he was as Hand. I literally can't think of a single thing he did after their return to Westeros that actually helped her. 

Had she destroyed the Red Keep at the outset, only a fraction of the number of people would have died.

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30 minutes ago, TheTuninator said:

It's more than a bit depressing when you realize that Tyrion is directly responsible for every single one of Dany's problems on the show. He talks her out of flying right to King's Landing and incinerating Cersei before she had radar-tracking AA ballistas, which would have ended the entire war with far less bloodshed than we got in the end. He pushes the wight hunt to bring Cersei on board which is a complete failure and directly results in the death of Viserion and the WWs breaching the Wall. He lets Cersei outsmart him (which is a whole 'nother can of worms) in the Casterly Rock bit, which somehow leads to the entire Tyrell line being deleted from the face of Westeros without so much as a struggle. He spreads the information about Jon's true heritage. 

If Dany had simply flown to the Red Keep and burned Cersei alive as soon as she reached Dragonstone, none of this would ever have happened, and yet the show never lets her truly take Tyrion to task for what a monumental failure he was as Hand. I literally can't think of a single thing he did after their return to Westeros that actually helped her. 

Tyrion has failed everyone, which is why Bran has opted to keep him alive. Why kill him, when A. Bran will know everything he is up to, and B. Tyrion is now expected to make up for a lifetime of errors. 

I cant help but feel that isn’t it, Varys’ last act was to reveal Jon, another bit of poor writing is the fact it’s been left unknown if anyone else knows of Jon’s true identity? Not that it matters now the old system of blood lineage has been removed. The irony is that neither would have carried on their line, as Dany was unable to mother children..... so unless Jon was having his was with ladies on the side, the Targaryen house would have died naturally.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I never understood that wheel nonsense, but as I see it the cripple king and his bickering council are, basically, Robert Baratheon all over again. An absentee king surrounded by fools and flatterers.

Killing Dany is basically the same as killing Augustus in 27 BCE. Sure, he buried the republic, and he did so by killing a lot of people. But he ended the continuous wars and he gave Rome a period of lasting peace and internal stability.

Or better: Dany is basically Alexander the Great dying early. The result was not peace and plenty but fragmentation and continuous warfare and the eventual destruction of the Greek world (at least as independent political entities).

The idea to judge a ruler in this setting on one cruel act is just nonsense, even if one imagined that the criteria to judge her were criteria in that world would use - which they are not.

And that is bad how? I assume 'King Bran' is dealing with rebellion and succession in his 'Six Kingdoms' by ignoring that such events take place ;-)?

Bran is hardly an absentee king and if you forgot during Roberts reign there was no wars and it was genuinely peaceful and if not for Roberts bad spending habits everything would have been good. Also not to mention the King is going to be elected from now on not by succession. 

The North didn’t rebell and the North saved the 7 Kingdoms from the AoTD and the rest of the Kingdoms will always be in debt to them. The North is the farthest most and most neglected Kingdom and has plenty other reason to succeed. If you forgot, Daenerys herself said any Kingdom could if they asked. 

 

Also Daenerys has committed multiple “cruel acts” and obviously is no longer in the right state of mind, if she’s ever been.

Edited by Starkz

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3 hours ago, Tadco26 said:

Also don't forget that Jon and Tyrion probably couldn't understand a word she was saying.

Also don’t forget we had subtitles and were able to read what she said and Tyrion can understand Valyrian to some degree and saying Winterfell and Dorne don’t really translate in Valyrian.

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1 minute ago, Starkz said:

Bran is hardly an absentee king and if you forgot during Roberts reign there was no wars and it was genuinely peaceful and if not for Roberts bad spending habits everything would have been good. Also not to mention the King is going to be elected from now on not by succession. 

He doesn't attend his own council sessions, which is precisely what Robert did, too. And his good advisers immediately start bickering among themselves what their priorities should be whereas the Hand's only priority seems to be his obsession with the managing the chairs.

This ridiculous elective monarchy thing is nonsense considering it should make everything worse. Everybody would like to be king now that this is price every great lord apparently can get - which means the war for it when a king grows old and feeble should intensify. Not to mention that any king with children would - and quickly should - try to reestablish a proper hereditary monarchy. Considering that Bran may have some nieces and nephews by Sansa the Cripple King could actually have close kin who might see themselves as his heirs. But I'm sure those guys wouldn't care if some other dude were to follow their dear uncle, no?

5 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Also don’t forget we had subtitles and were able to read what she said and Tyrion can understand Valyrian to some degree and saying Winterfell and Dorne don’t really translate in Valyrian.

She said they would continue the war in Westeros, yes, but to free people. No idea what exactly that meant since it is never made clear, but if it meant, of instance, to eradicate the entire hereditary aristocracy, root and stem, and replace them by a proper royal bureaucracy run by royal officials from the ranks of the commoners who can actually make careers and advance themselves then this would have been a very great idea, no?

The root of all injustice in this shitty political system is the nobility, their privileges, and their petty ambitions and squabbles.

You do understand that the entitled pricks 'electing' the new king ridiculing the idea that the commoners should have a voice, too, and Dany making it clear that she knows what's best for everybody and that she, as monarch, doesn't have to explain herself, etc. are essentially the same approaches, right? The only difference is that the collective of the pricks are somehow portrayed as good dictators and she is, apparently, a bad one.

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4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why did the King's Landing civilians run to Cersei for protection when they could've just left the city?

Riddle me that

Because they didn't want the Dothraki to rape and pillage them. It's pretty common and logical to flee to the safety of a walled city/castle when an army is coming.

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Just now, Forlong the Fat said:

Because they didn't want the Dothraki to rape and pillage them. It's pretty common and logical to flee to the safety of a walled city/castle when an army is coming.

Even when that walled city/castle is a target...

Even when that walled city/castle is ruled by someone that you don't even like...

The Dothraki were doing no raping and pillaging.

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3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Even when that walled city/castle is a target...

Even when that walled city/castle is ruled by someone that you don't even like...

The Dothraki were doing no raping and pillaging.

Huh? Were those all consensual hookups in ep. 5? And it has been well established in this show that occupying armies are living hell for smallfolk.  That's true no matter who the army is; innkeepers hanged, rapes, and don't even get me started on The Tickler.

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4 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Huh? Were those all consensual hookups in ep. 5? And it has been well established in this show that occupying armies are living hell for smallfolk.  That's true no matter who the army is; innkeepers hanged, rapes, and don't even get me started on The Tickler.

I didn't see any Dothraki raping people in episode 5. Or even pillaging for that matter...

I did see a northerner try to rape someone and then try to kill Jon when Jon wouldn't let him rape someone.

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