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Areisius

Who was Daenerys turned into?

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Posted (edited)

I'm baffled as to who she was morphed into in S8. She went from having a sense of self awareness to becoming this delusional tyrannical child. 

 

In her last scene with Jon she acted completely detached from reality and was acting like a sociopath. What in the world did D&D do to her character?

Edited by Areisius

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They made her fit Tyrion's utterly ridiculous characterization of her. Likely because Emilia had read the script ;-).

But with Bronn insisting to rebuild brothels in the city one really wonders who is the sociopath there, no? Would have life under Dany been better or worse than what the detached, inhuman cripple king and his bickering council is going to give them?

We'll never know. But I have my doubts. The entire idea that killing innocents on the enemy side is *wrong* or a reason to abandon or murder a monarch does actually not fit very well with the overall setting of this world. No nobleman ever condemned another nobleman for the suffering or killing of innocent people in war. Sure, there are less accepted and more accepted ways of how to butcher, exploit, and kill the smallfolk, but none of that is likely to turn people against a ruler.

I mean, keep in mind that Tarly actually wants to clean out the High Sept with armed men even as late as the Epilogue of ADwD. That's how the nobility of Westeros respects the High Septon and the Faith once it is taken over up commoners.

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Have you read the books?  She says it herself in the Dance with Dragons, the last book Martin wrote, about 4 pages from the end in the last chapter when she is talking to the grass, her inner conflict, she changes her outlook and the last thing thing the grass asks her is, “who are you?”, and she replies, “________ and _________”.

I will not put her quote here since some may not have read the book but if you read it now, I think it is obvious that it foreshadowed what she would do and it tells what she turned into.  Looking back on it, the conversation with the grass is about the most important part of the books and sets up Danys arc but on first read, I just scratched my head and finished the book.

I think D&D failed to show that inner conflict adequately which left me very unsatisfied with how they portrayed her.

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24 minutes ago, Areisius said:

In her last scene with Jon she acted completely detached from reality and was acting like a sociopath.

Not so different from before. You just don't want to see it.

Rewatch the fighting pit talk Hizdahr/Daenerys. Only her reason is valid, she is ready to burn cities. Or the talk to the Thirteen in front of Qarth. Or her pep talk to the Dothraki after burning the Dosh Khaleen. Again and again she is willing to destroy and burn cities.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2019 at 7:50 AM, Kajjo said:

Not so different from before. You just don't want to see it.

Rewatch the fighting pit talk Hizdahr/Daenerys. Only her reason is valid, she is ready to burn cities. Or the talk to the Thirteen in front of Qarth. Or her pep talk to the Dothraki after burning the Dosh Khaleen. Again and again she is willing to destroy and burn cities.

it's such a cop out to say she was ready to burn cities, but she never ends up actually doing  it. And we're talking about years. But what she does do is save innocent slaves, the north, and Jon many times.

Edited by tallTale

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But with Bronn insisting to rebuild brothels in the city one really wonders who is the sociopath there, no? Would have life under Dany been better or worse than what the detached, inhuman cripple king and his bickering council is going to give them?

But according to Tyrion (and Dany herself in her speech), Dany wasn't going to simply rule Westeros from the capital. It looks like she was going to invade other lands, such as the Free Cities, or idk, Sothoryos ?

Had she accept to stay in Westeros and rule, I don't even know if she'd dealt with a Smart Council, or gather all the power in her own hands. (remember at this point she doesn't even have a Hand of the Queen) And do you think she'd have been fine with the North being independent ?

...I agree that Bronn in ths Council is a bad & weird thing to do, though. u_u

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2 minutes ago, tallTale said:

she was ready to burn cities, but she never ends up actually doing  it.

Because she is talked out of it. After her advisors disappointed and there is none to talk her out of it, she does it eventually. It's been in her character all the time. And she showed ít clearly.

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Because she is talked out of it. After her advisors disappointed and there is none to talk her out of it, she does it eventually. It's been in her character all the time. And she showed ít clearly.

She never had to be talked out of burning innocent civilians until now.

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Just now, Ser Glendon Fireball said:

But according to Tyrion (and Dany herself in her speech), Dany wasn't going to simply rule Westeros from the capital. It looks like she was going to invade other lands, such as the Free Cities, or idk, Sothoryos ?

Had she accept to stay in Westeros and rule, I don't even know if she'd dealt with a Smart Council, or gather all the power in her own hands. (remember at this point she doesn't even have a Hand of the Queen) And do you think she'd have been fine with the North being independent ?

...I agree that Bronn in ths Council is a bad & weird thing to do, though. u_u

As I just pointed out in another thread, in relation to her book story she should actually already have conquered all those lands by the time the series ends.

In the books, she will have first to end the slavery thing in Essos - and that means and entails destroying all the slaver cities in Slaver's Bay (Yunkai, Meereen itself, New Ghis, the less significant cities, Qarth - which participated in the war against her and also has a share in the slave trade -, and free all help free all the slaves in Volantis, Lys, Tyrosh, Myr, and Pentos (and those in Qohor and Norvos as well, of course).

This is likely going to coincide with the freed people there accepting Dany as some sort of imperial overlord.

Once she ends up coming to Westeros there should literally be no reason left for her to go to war.

And the idea that she were ever to go to free the Summer Islands - who are free already - or take an armada to Yi Ti - sounds utterly crazy. But then, if we look at the British Empire such enterprises can greatly profit everyone back home, so perhaps Westeros should start to colonize the world...

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20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They made her fit Tyrion's utterly ridiculous characterization of her. Likely because Emilia had read the script ;-).

But with Bronn insisting to rebuild brothels in the city one really wonders who is the sociopath there, no? Would have life under Dany been better or worse than what the detached, inhuman cripple king and his bickering council is going to give them?

We'll never know. But I have my doubts. The entire idea that killing innocents on the enemy side is *wrong* or a reason to abandon or murder a monarch does actually not fit very well with the overall setting of this world. No nobleman ever condemned another nobleman for the suffering or killing of innocent people in war. Sure, there are less accepted and more accepted ways of how to butcher, exploit, and kill the smallfolk, but none of that is likely to turn people against a ruler.

I mean, keep in mind that Tarly actually wants to clean out the High Sept with armed men even as late as the Epilogue of ADwD. That's how the nobility of Westeros respects the High Septon and the Faith once it is taken over up commoners.

It’s pretty obvious life under Daenerys would not have been good. She’s totally detached from reality and doesn’t seem to care that she just committed mass-genocide against innocents including children. Even with the IT she’s still not content and somehow believes she’s going to “break the wheel” by steering it and being the one in charge which is literally being a part of the wheel.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As I just pointed out in another thread, in relation to her book story she should actually already have conquered all those lands by the time the series ends.

In the books, she will have first to end the slavery thing in Essos - and that means and entails destroying all the slaver cities in Slaver's Bay (Yunkai, Meereen itself, New Ghis, the less significant cities, Qarth - which participated in the war against her and also has a share in the slave trade -, and free all help free all the slaves in Volantis, Lys, Tyrosh, Myr, and Pentos (and those in Qohor and Norvos as well, of course).

This is likely going to coincide with the freed people there accepting Dany as some sort of imperial overlord.

Once she ends up coming to Westeros there should literally be no reason left for her to go to war.

And the idea that she were ever to go to free the Summer Islands - who are free already - or take an armada to Yi Ti - sounds utterly crazy. But then, if we look at the British Empire such enterprises can greatly profit everyone back home, so perhaps Westeros should start to colonize the world...

Don’t forget Dany says she’ll go to Dorne and Winterfell too to ensure they follow her.

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4 minutes ago, tallTale said:

She never had to be talked out of burning innocent civilians until now.

S6E9 "and return their cities to the dirt"... Tyrion talks her out of it, mentioning the Mad King. Just as example, "not destroying entire cities"

 

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Just now, Starkz said:

Don’t forget Dany says she’ll go to Dorne and Winterfell too to ensure they follow her.

Yes, she wanted to do to Winterfell what she did to King's Landing to set a final stop to Sansa's resistance.

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Just now, Kajjo said:

S6E9 "and return their cities to the dirt"... Tyrion talks her out of it, mentioning the Mad King. Just as example, "not destroying entire cities"

 

She's been making grandiose threats since season one, but still acted with restraint. Actions speaks louder than words.

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1 minute ago, tallTale said:

She's been making grandiose threats since season one, but still acted with restraint. Actions speaks louder than words.

Because they talked her either out of it or the threats were directly at the future. The future came. The threats became real.

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This talk of Dany turning into a sociopath is not only unfounded but not even possible.

 

A child is born with the capacity to become a sociopath. Environmental causes of sociopathy trigger the biological disposition. In addition, there are behaviors that exist in childhood that are clues that he will be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder as an adult (My Child Is A Sociopath! Is There Anything I Can Do?). This means that someone can't just suddenly become a sociopath later in life.

There is one rare exception. Traumatic brain injury specifically to the paralimbic system can (but doesn't always) cause someone to develop a sociopathic personality. 

https://bit.ly/2TIowqu

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Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2019 at 8:09 AM, Kajjo said:

Because they talked her either out of it or the threats were directly at the future. The future came. The threats became real.

Her threats were always real as she acted with vengeance upon on her enemies, but never against the innocent. We have enough evidence to prove her moral character. You don't get to retcon her at this point, and certainly not for such poor reasons.

Edited by tallTale

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17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They made her fit Tyrion's utterly ridiculous characterization of her. Likely because Emilia had read the script ;-).

But with Bronn insisting to rebuild brothels in the city one really wonders who is the sociopath there, no? Would have life under Dany been better or worse than what the detached, inhuman cripple king and his bickering council is going to give them?

We'll never know. But I have my doubts. The entire idea that killing innocents on the enemy side is *wrong* or a reason to abandon or murder a monarch does actually not fit very well with the overall setting of this world. No nobleman ever condemned another nobleman for the suffering or killing of innocent people in war. Sure, there are less accepted and more accepted ways of how to butcher, exploit, and kill the smallfolk, but none of that is likely to turn people against a ruler.

I mean, keep in mind that Tarly actually wants to clean out the High Sept with armed men even as late as the Epilogue of ADwD. That's how the nobility of Westeros respects the High Septon and the Faith once it is taken over up commoners.

No wonder Emilia Clarke was shocked by the script when she read it.

This is a show which has glorified cruelty.  Dany can be cruel, but it's not cruelty that's out of the ordinary for either the world that the show runners created, or the world of the books, or the kind of societies that they are based on.  This is a world in which the good guys can feed people their own children, gouge out eyes before slitting throats, feed people to dogs, behead shell-shocked soldiers etc.  Dany fits into that world.  But, for some reason, from the middle of series 7 onwards, her advisors are increasingly shocked by her behaviour.  So, they plot her against her, and reasonably enough, she punishes them.  And, punishing them is then used as justification for treating her as a villain.  Varys repeatedly betrayed her, before trying to poison her.  What medieval monarch would not put someone to death who did that?  On top of that, Bran and Sansa are trying to bring her down.

So, then we get to the massacre in Kings Landing.  A horrendous deed, by our standards, but not by the standards established in this world. Tywin was reckoned a badass for sacking the city.   The city refused to surrender, and Cersei beheaded her best friend.    Any city would expect to be sacked once her army broke in, and all bar 3 of the army were happy to participate in the sack.

Then, next episode, she's Adolf Hitler, addressing the Nuremburg rally and intending to conquer the world, two episodes after she played a major role in saving the world.

That's just character assassination for the sake of the plot.

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