Destiny of Jon Snow

[Han Snow]

3 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Him being banished to The Night's Watch was a middle finger to fans. It wasn't remotely like Frodo's bittersweet sailing to Tol Eressëa since it was (as Tolkien wrote in one of his letters) purgatorial, not penal. What happened to Jon was plainly bitter. He looked resigned to the world when he arrived at Castle Black and I don't think anything remotely changed with that since he's honor-bound to do his duty. I mean, how the frak else do you explain HOW get got arrested other than he admitted to knifing Daenerys? If he's gonna admit to regicide (a crime for which he cannot be held since he's a RIVAL CLAIMANT) then why the hell would he break with The NIght's Watch?

The single WORST aspect of it all was the fact NO ONE mentioned he was a Targaryen and not some bastard. No one put forward that, "oh btw that guy that's accused of killing Daenerys, turns out he was a rival claimant to the Iron Throne with the superior claim to her." Jon's ending sucked.

True, true, true. I hope GRRM just kills him of in the books if he doesn't intend for Jon to rule as a king in the end.

Such a sad sad destiny, twice banished, the ONE TRUE king. the TRUE messiah of that world, forgotten in the end. But his WAS THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE. Even D&D can not take that from him.

[NonoNono]

He's the only one who still has his direwolf. Truly the Last Stark.

Also Jon ending up banished to the NW is not surprising. Called that a while ago, the books make a lot of references to him being remembered as a bastard and never as a hero. Same as in The Accursed Kings where John the 1st is replaced by a bastard who takes his name and dies while he is raised as a bastard and never gets to reclaim the throne when he finds out his true heritage.

[TheNecromancerofMirkwood]

1 hour ago, Han Snow said:

True, true, true. I hope GRRM just kills him of in the books if he doesn't intend for Jon to rule as a king in the end.

Such a sad sad destiny, twice banished, the ONE TRUE king. the TRUE messiah of that world, forgotten in the end. But his WAS THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE. Even D&D can not take that from him.

Years ago I fell in love with the novel Cold Mountain (was a Civil War reenactor for many years) and Inman's fate would at least be preferable to the kick to the nuts the Tv series gave Jon. Personally, I believe he will fall in love with his cousin Sansa (too many plot points seem to add up) and I would like to think if Jon and Sansa have a bittersweet ending, ala Inman and Ada, that I could live with it. It would hurt, but I would praise Martin for delivering his promise of a bittersweet ending.

[CrypticWeirwood]

On 5/20/2019 at 11:12 AM, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Yup he can be with the free folk and Night's Watch. They always seem to have freedom to travel. He just cant have babies that's only for Sam. Benjen was in the first episode. 

I wouldn't bet on dead people being able to have live babies.

[CrypticWeirwood]

On 5/20/2019 at 12:13 PM, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Can Jon get one too?

A royal decree from which ruler? The Wall is no longer part of the Six Kingdoms. It's part of the North. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

On 5/20/2019 at 12:38 PM, nyser1 said:

Grey worm and his ~4,000 unsullied foreigners in a city with severe damage to its defenses and zero supplies can dictate terms to an entire continent. Makes sense right?

 

All hail Aegon VI.

I still think he's going to be Aegon VII in the books.

[lakin1013]

6 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Truly, where is everyone getting this idea Jon was happiest living among the Wildlings? He was happy being with YGRITTE but she's dead. Every other Wildling leader (The Weeper, Varamyr Six-Skins, The Lord of Bones, Harma Dogshead) save Mance and Tormund wanted him murdered on the spot. He damn near lost his head to Mance at the Fist of the First Men.

No, Jon was happiest living (even as a bastard) among his cousins. That's what he wished for, a life with children of his own. A way OUT of the stigma of being a bastard.

Jon doesn't get to rule? Fine. He retires as a former King, the new head of House Targaryen settled with Wildlings upon The Gift. They would need to shore up the defenses of the area around Eastwatch since there is a gigantic freaking HOLE where a large section of The Wall was brought down. That would be a bittersweet ending, since the bitter is to be denied his actual birthright (rulership of the 7 Kingdoms), but the sweet is to be fully recognized as a legitimate Targaryen who can father children who will inherit after him.

Him being banished to The Night's Watch was a middle finger to fans. It wasn't remotely like Frodo's bittersweet sailing to Tol Eressëa since it was (as Tolkien wrote in one of his letters) purgatorial, not penal. What happened to Jon was plainly bitter. He looked resigned to the world when he arrived at Castle Black and I don't think anything remotely changed with that since he's honor-bound to do his duty. I mean, how the frak else do you explain HOW get got arrested other than he admitted to knifing Daenerys? If he's gonna admit to regicide (a crime for which he cannot be held since he's a RIVAL CLAIMANT) then why the hell would he break with The NIght's Watch?

The single WORST aspect of it all was the fact NO ONE mentioned he was a Targaryen and not some bastard. No one put forward that, "oh btw that guy that's accused of killing Daenerys, turns out he was a rival claimant to the Iron Throne with the superior claim to her." Jon's ending sucked.

I agree with many of your points but .....  I do think Jon seemed to understand the rules the Freefolk lived under, their code of conduct, and a life of what you do, not what you say.  Also, I think Jon and Mance and Tormund understood each other in a deep way.  Qhorin taught Jon about the wildings.   I have no issue with Jon being with the freefolk if it was HIS CHOICE!  He was banished, exiled.  The one true king was kicked outta town.  That stinks.

And nobody spoke for him at the trial.  Nobody.  Not his good cousin Sansa.  Not his good cousin Arya.  Not his BFF Sam.  Not even Davos.  What - nobody murdered in this group?  Everyone here is horrified by Jon's act?  Nobody is happy Jon removed Dany?  Everyone was afraid of Greyworm?  Jon's ending stunk.  Because nobody spoke for him, and he was not given a choice. 

But where he ended up was where I hoped he would be. Doesn't mean he is stuck there forever. He might  be King of the World in a few years. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

21 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

Him being banished to The Night's Watch was a middle finger to fans.

The single WORST aspect of it all was the fact NO ONE mentioned he was a Targaryen and not some bastard. No one put forward that, "oh btw that guy that's accused of killing Daenerys, turns out he was a rival claimant to the Iron Throne with the superior claim to her." Jon's ending sucked.

This "middle finger to the fans" is complete nonsense because it is not the artist's job to clutch at his pearls worrying about providing adequate fan service. That's why GRRM said that art is not a democracy and how people don't get to vote on how it ends. It also would have ruined his plan to tell a story subverting the hidden-prince-becomes-king trope.

The single BEST aspect of it all was the fact that NO ONE mentioned he was a Targaryen and not some bastard. This is an absolutely critical part of the ending: take that away and it's ruined. 

Now Jon gets to live his life however he pleases. He won't be drawn into the destructive game of thrones. The only people who know the truth are the ones who love him. Sansa and Arya and Bran aren't about to make their beloved foster-brother's life hell by painting a target on him for more crazy royalists spouting the same "rightful ruler of X" bullshit that has riven the kingdom with centuries of pointless strife and bloodshed, and neither will Tyrion or Davos or Sam.  And his cousin Gendry will likely never learn the truth; even if he did, don't you think a born bastard would have some sympathy for his kinsman?

Westeros needs no more stupid civil wars full of rival claimants and hidden heirs and cadet branches. It needs no more Essosi invaders trampling the smallfolk into the ground and thinking nothing of it. That means not just no Dothraki or Unsullied but also no Targaryens or Blackfyres either. Jon's done his duty to guard the realms of Men. He's saved Westeros from both destructive threats: first from ice and then from fire. Now he gets to live his own life like he always wanted, not the one some scheming murderer wants of him.

Jon's ending was awesome.

[CrypticWeirwood]

35 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

And nobody spoke for him at the trial.  Nobody.  Not his good cousin Sansa.  Not his good cousin Arya.  Not his BFF Sam.  Not even Davos.  What - nobody murdered in this group?  Everyone here is horrified by Jon's act?  Nobody is happy Jon removed Dany?  Everyone was afraid of Greyworm?  Jon's ending stunk.  Because nobody spoke for him, and he was not given a choice. 

Do you honestly think his foster brother and foster sisters didn't know exactly what they were doing here, let alone the very few others who knew the truth, by keeping their traps shut for once? 

They were all protecting him!

Their silence was their gift to Jon, their reward to him for saving the world from ice and from fire.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

49 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Do you honestly think his foster brother and foster sisters didn't know exactly what they were doing here, let alone the very few others who knew the truth, by keeping their traps shut for once? 

They were all protecting him!

Their silence was their gift to Jon, their reward to him for saving the world from ice and from fire.

Grey Worm could not leave king’s landing it was surrounded. It made sense he got something and they got something. He wanted Jon Snow punished. They punished Jon Snow. Because Grey Worm did not know what Nights Watch is he think it’s a real punishment. If Jon stays in nights watch he has freedom to move around and rise to leadership again. If he leaves no one will chase him. Grey Worm was tricked. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

9 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Grey Worm could not leave king’s landing it was surrounded. It made sense he got something and they got something. He wanted Jon Snow punished. They punished Jon Snow. Because Grey Worm did not know what Nights Watch is he think it’s a real punishment. If Jon stays in nights watch he has freedom to move around and rise to leadership again. If he leaves no one will chase him. Grey Worm was tricked. 

I'm pretty sure you're right.

And I'm ok with that.

[Daemos]

16 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Grey Worm was tricked. 

Those Starks have no honor!

[King Jon Snow Stark]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I'm pretty sure you're right.

And I'm ok with that.

 

54 minutes ago, Daemos said:

Those Starks have no honor!

Its like Grey did not spend anytime with Jon. Jon chose to go to the Night's Watch when he was younger. CHOSE! The more I think about it the more I realize the episode was actually pretty good. 

[Gianna Dorenberg]

Off topic but, why didn't Bran as the new king order the execution of the Unsullied ? They helped with the genocide of Kings Landing. They are guilty, and under the new ruler they should have been executed. How do they even, still, get a say in Jons sentence ? How ? He IS the heir to the iron throne.  A lot of those really hurt my brain, didn't make a lick of sense.

About Jons destiny...I'm just happy he had his little moment with Ghost. And I'm cool with him teaming up with his buddy Tormund. The whole sentenced to Nights Watch thing however, then ditching that, is grade A bs. Just dumb, dumb dumb.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

Just now, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Off topic but, why didn't Bran as the new king order the execution of the Unsullied ? They helped with the genocide of Kings Landing. They are guilty, and under the new ruler they should have been executed. How do they even, still, get a say in Jons sentence ? How ? He IS the heir to the iron throne.  A lot of those really hurt my brain, didn't make a lick of sense.

About Jons destiny...I'm just happy he had his little moment with Ghost. And I'm cool with him teaming up with his buddy Tormund. The whole sentenced to Nights Watch thing however, then ditching that, is grade A bs. Just dumb, dumb dumb.

Same reason they had to negotiate Jon's release. There are thousands of  Unsullied. It would be a 3rd war within months of two others. No one wanted that. Plus the army that was surrounding King's Landing was Sansa's now.

[Cladinator]

On 5/20/2019 at 11:17 AM, Black Arya said:

Talking to friens before the chapter, it seemed clear to me that wether it was him or not the one to kill Daeneris, he would end in the north with Ghost and Tormund but I thought it would be his choice, not an imposed.

 

 

I thought the same. I wanted him to make the choice but then you have the issue of his stubborn devotion to duty. His character is incapable of giving the finger to duty and heading North out of his own self-interest. 

This outcome solved that problem. And in the end it's probably the happiest ending possible for Jon, though still tragic.

[JagLover]

3 hours ago, Cladinator said:

I thought the same. I wanted him to make the choice but then you have the issue of his stubborn devotion to duty. His character is incapable of giving the finger to duty and heading North out of his own self-interest. 

This outcome solved that problem. And in the end it's probably the happiest ending possible for Jon, though still tragic.

I am not sure you can even call it tragic. He said time and again he didn't want the throne. Tormond is a good friend and he seemed to like the more independent nature of free folk women. I really don't get why some are seeing it as grim exile rather than him going somewhere he can be happy.   

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Lets recap shall we?

Jon Snow is Azor Ahai. He quenched his sword in water when battling the WW's (the White Walkers are ice, ice is frozen water).
He then quenched his sword in the heart of a Lion battling the Lannisters (Lannister sigil is a lion).
He finally quenched his sword in Nissa Nissa when stabbing Daenerys (his lover). And with that ending the war for humanity.

He is also the last hero. He went on a trip north of the wall with several companions, not to find the heart of winter, but to find A heart if winter, a wight, and bring it to kingslanding to show the threat humans are facing.

He is also a fantasy trope, the hidden king, the last true heir to the throne, hidden in plain sight, being prepared for a noble duty, but not aware of his true destiny.

Jon is the culmination of a lot of prophecies, however Jon himself does not believe in prophecies. Jon believes in honor, doing what is good for humanity and helping out whenever he can. 
Following up on that, GRRM is pretty much on the same foot as Jon, he uses prophecies in his books, but they are a double-edged blade. If misinterpreted, the prophecy will turn against you. GRRM also dislikes tropes, but he uses them all the more. However, the tropes GRRM uses, usually end up a little bit different that the default ending.
Jon is not Aragorn, Samwell is not Samwise, Daenerys is not the true exiled heir, etcetera.

Back on topic.
Jon is sent to the NW. The first thing he asks when Tyrion tells him is "Is there even a nightswatch?" Tyrion gives an indirect answer "The kingdom alsways needs a place for bastards and broken men". Also, about 99% of the old NW has been killed in battle, the NW has been renewed with freefolk. As Tormund mildly puts it in season 7 "Guess we're the Nightswatch now".

So, there currently still is a nightswatch. However, most of these men, are freefolk, not Westerosi. Second, they never took the NW vows, instead, they vowed (and kneeled) to Jon when they were allowed beyond the wall.

If we add all this up, we can safely assume that the current NW is a totally different NW than the one we saw in season 1-4. The NW is mostly freefolk, who swore an oath to Jon. They are loyal to him, because he saved them and their families from the WW's and the NK.
All-knowing and all-seeing Bran knows what happened at the wall, and who is manning the wall at this very point.
Bran must've known that things are about to change at the wall.

Let's face it, there is no real threat from the north anymore. The wildlings already have passed beyond the wall, and the WW's are gone.
There is no use for the wall anymore, except for being a border. The only purpose for the NW would be customs.
Jon did not desert the NW, he rejoined the NW that now exists of mostly freefolk. The freefolk accepts him as their savior.

A nice telling about the current state of the NW is that he was being brought to castle black by 2 men in black. When the gates opened, you could see Jon with his traditional sulking expression. He was not looking forward to returning to the NW, and being just another NW guard or whatever. 
Imagine his surprise when he sees Tormund in the spot where the LC used to be standing when new recruits arrived.....

Jon is in the North (the real North), where he belongs. He lost his hart for the first time in the North to Ygritte, and he will never forget. Tormund is right, Jon belongs in the North. He will be at peace in the north, but a broken man still. He killed his second love, for the good of humanity. He did the right thing, but it completely broke him. He now is in a place where people do not care about bloodlines, heritage and house-names. He can just be Jon Snow, savior of the freefolk, and maybe even a customs officer at the wall. 

[Kajjo]

14 hours ago, Han Snow said:

Such a sad sad destiny, twice banished, the ONE TRUE king. the TRUE messiah of that world, forgotten in the end.

Jon is the tragic hero of this story. Twice he has to hold a dead love in his arms. He gets murdered by his own Night's Watch comrades, he is on the short end of life quite often. Yes, there are tragic heroes, in real life, too.

27 minutes ago, Ser Walter of AShwood said:

Jon Snow is Azor Ahai. He quenched his sword in water when battling the WW's (the White Walkers are ice, ice is frozen water).
He then quenched his sword in the heart of a Lion battling the Lannisters (Lannister sigil is a lion).
He finally quenched his sword in Nissa Nissa when stabbing Daenerys (his lover). And with that ending the war for humanity.

Sounds still a bit far fetched in the details, but overall I believe he is meant to be either AA or PTWP. The show is too short-cut on the prophecies to really tell.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Jon is the tragic hero of this story. Twice he has to hold a dead love in his arms. He gets murdered by his own Night's Watch comrades, he is on the short end of life quite often. Yes, there are tragic heroes, in real life, too.

Sounds still a bit far fetched in the details, but overall I believe he is meant to be either AA or PTWP. The show is too short-cut on the prophecies to really tell.



Jon indeed is the tragic hero of the story, that is obvious.
He is also the culmination of several prophecies, the PTWP and AA. However, as with many prophecies and visions, they are misunderstood. Prophecies and legends are first told mouth-to-mouth, small things change every time a story is told, then they get written down and people start theorizing (as we have been doing for so many years).

I know it is far fetched, but the link is actually quite obvious, fighting the WW's, then the Lannisters and finally fight the last greatest threat to Westeros, his lover, who wants to enforce her vision of a free world to everybody, you can either bend the knee or die.
That's not a free world, that's something totally different, and I am refusing to point to any political movement from the past or present that used/uses intimidation and violence to enforce their vision.