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Ydra Stark

*SPOILERS* Jon useless information

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1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Isn't the show that goes the "true king" route for Jon? In the books, the Targ succession is kind of an open question. Viserys was heir after Rhaegar died, and he in turn dies without issue. Dany says she's Viserys's heir, but it's not clear if she's formally his heir. And the books have fAegon, whom GRRM has now called Aegon VI, who would be Rhaegar's firstborn male heir. On top of all this, it's Dany who has dragons, which is what gives the house power. 

It gets one thinking what GRRM's purpose for Jon's real heritage is. I mean, he could have just been a bastard and done all that (I thought Drogon let Jon pass because he recognizes that Dany is fond of him, not just because he has Targ blood. Also why he doesn't kill him in the end.)

Jon could have just been a bastard and done all that, no? He also doesn't need to be a Targ to take the throne, He can just take it after killing the previous occupant. Maybe it's intended as something that would have once been useful (like when the throne was without a useful monarch following Robert's death) , but no longer matters when winter comes. 

Yeah his claim will probably be more of an open question in the book, don't think there'll be anything about an annulment between Rhaegar and Elia, since the books seems to be setting up the idea that Rhaegar just took Lyanna as a second wife, like the Targaryen kings of old. The show obviously introduced the annulment to dumb things down.

It will be interesting to finally find out what GRRM's intended purpose for Jon's heritage is , find it hard to believe the only purpose is to drive Dany over the edge.

And yeah, I guess he doesn't even need to be a Targ to take the throne, if that's something his character needs to do at some point in the books. After all, Cersei tells Ned Stark he should have taken the throne after Robert's rebellion, even though Ned had no claim. Renly declares himself king despite being behind Stannis in the line of succession. So yeah, people in Westeros seem to acknowledge that an army + popularity goes much further than a blood claim.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ydra Stark said:

Yeah i kinda feel that way to ! 

That’s why i asked if the heritage of Jon even mattered ? It was such a big deal for a lot of fans, but in the end it really didn’t mean anything for the story in my opinion. 

 

It meant a lot for the story. Just not Jon's character. The circumstances of Jon's birth, the keeping of the secret and how people react to it were driving forces for a lot of the characters and storylines.

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51 minutes ago, Darryk said:

And yeah, I guess he doesn't even need to be a Targ to take the throne, if that's something his character needs to do at some point in the books. After all, Cersei tells Ned Stark he should have taken the throne after Robert's rebellion, even though Ned had no claim. Renly declares himself king despite being behind Stannis in the line of succession. So yeah, people in Westeros seem to acknowledge that an army + popularity goes much further than a blood claim.

I think as long as the usurper has noble heritage of some sort, the people wouldn't care. Stark is a noble house with a long history. And I don't know what this popularity thing is. I guess popular support would help if you were in line for the throne. Otherwise, why would it matter? Bobby B wasn't popular when he took the throne. Show Dany was upset that "people don't love her." But that's not at all a requirement for becoming monarch. It's not the people, but the lords that need to accept the monarch. I don't think claims really matter if you have overthrown the previous king anyway. 

About the annulment--that was hilarious. Like why even bother with something like that? In any case, annulling a marriage with two biological kids isn't possible. 

I highly doubt Jon being a Targ is going to drive Dany mad in the books. fAegon might do that. But I'm don't see why Dany would be mad that her brother's children survived. Wouldn't she love to join them and learn that she has a family after all? She only wants the IT to return "home" and fulfill what Viserys couldn't do. Having another Targ relative would mean she can marry and settle down as it was supposed to be in the beginning. I don't see why Dany would want to claim the IT for just herself at the expense of her family. She's not Cersei. 

GRRM perhaps intended to use Jon's heritage to expose the lie that led to the rebellion. I'm not convinced whether he has any fire magic from the Stark side that might sort of balance the ice-fire dynamic. Jon so far is very much a northman with his own direwolf. 

I have this pet theory that the "song" of ice and fire is between Dany and Bran, and Jon might end up acting as a mediator between the two, perhaps to get them to join forces to fight the WW. Dany is very much on the fire side of things with her dragons. And Bran seems to be into the ice side of things with his greenseer/weirnet magic. They drink from the cups of ice and fire. In the House of Undying, Dany drinks nightshade, possibly the cup of ice that the Undying mention. And Bran ends up drinking weirwood paste, possibly the cup of fire (it's switched). They are both told to "remember who" they are, by Quaithe and Jojen. Maybe to win these two opposed forces need to join up. And Jon could be the all important heroic glue that brings it all together by being Dany's nephew/lover and Bran's cousin. So his Targ-Stark heritage wouldn't be so pointless after all. 

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I think as long as the usurper has noble heritage of some sort, the people wouldn't care. Stark is a noble house with a long history. And I don't know what this popularity thing is. I guess popular support would help if you were in line for the throne. Otherwise, why would it matter? Bobby B wasn't popular when he took the throne. Show Dany was upset that "people don't love her." But that's not at all a requirement for becoming monarch. It's not the people, but the lords that need to accept the monarch. I don't think claims really matter if you have overthrown the previous king anyway.

Yeah, I meant popular support among the lords, who have the armies in a feudal society.

I have this pet theory that the "song" of ice and fire is between Dany and Bran, and Jon might end up acting as a mediator between the two, perhaps to get them to join forces to fight the WW. Dany is very much on the fire side of things with her dragons. And Bran seems to be into the ice side of things with his greenseer/weirnet magic. They drink from the cups of ice and fire. In the House of Undying, Dany drinks nightshade, possibly the cup of ice that the Undying mention. And Bran ends up drinking weirwood paste, possibly the cup of fire (it's switched). They are both told to "remember who" they are, by Quaithe and Jojen. Maybe to win these two opposed forces need to join up. And Jon could be the all important heroic glue that brings it all together by being Dany's nephew/lover and Bran's cousin. So his Targ-Stark heritage wouldn't be so pointless after all.

That would be great, especially since it would be so different from the show and would illustrate how the showrunners just completely made up their own s**t.

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9 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I think as long as the usurper has noble heritage of some sort, the people wouldn't care. Stark is a noble house with a long history. And I don't know what this popularity thing is. I guess popular support would help if you were in line for the throne. Otherwise, why would it matter? Bobby B wasn't popular when he took the throne. Show Dany was upset that "people don't love her." But that's not at all a requirement for becoming monarch. It's not the people, but the lords that need to accept the monarch. I don't think claims really matter if you have overthrown the previous king anyway. 

About the annulment--that was hilarious. Like why even bother with something like that? In any case, annulling a marriage with two biological kids isn't possible. 

I highly doubt Jon being a Targ is going to drive Dany mad in the books. fAegon might do that. But I'm don't see why Dany would be mad that her brother's children survived. Wouldn't she love to join them and learn that she has a family after all? She only wants the IT to return "home" and fulfill what Viserys couldn't do. Having another Targ relative would mean she can marry and settle down as it was supposed to be in the beginning. I don't see why Dany would want to claim the IT for just herself at the expense of her family. She's not Cersei. 

GRRM perhaps intended to use Jon's heritage to expose the lie that led to the rebellion. I'm not convinced whether he has any fire magic from the Stark side that might sort of balance the ice-fire dynamic. Jon so far is very much a northman with his own direwolf. 

I have this pet theory that the "song" of ice and fire is between Dany and Bran, and Jon might end up acting as a mediator between the two, perhaps to get them to join forces to fight the WW. Dany is very much on the fire side of things with her dragons. And Bran seems to be into the ice side of things with his greenseer/weirnet magic. They drink from the cups of ice and fire. In the House of Undying, Dany drinks nightshade, possibly the cup of ice that the Undying mention. And Bran ends up drinking weirwood paste, possibly the cup of fire (it's switched). They are both told to "remember who" they are, by Quaithe and Jojen. Maybe to win these two opposed forces need to join up. And Jon could be the all important heroic glue that brings it all together by being Dany's nephew/lover and Bran's cousin. So his Targ-Stark heritage wouldn't be so pointless after all. 

Maybe fAegon and Dany will team up as the Fire side, The stark children will follow Bran as the Ice side. The war will end, but suddenly the North are at war with the South. Jon (if RLJ is true in the books) will come in betwene them, being both fire and ice. He will stop the last war, they will establish a new kingdom (whoever is left alive) Jon returns to the North and he creates the kingdom of Scotland, King Jon the Bastard 

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