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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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Posted (edited)

Can we have a definitive thread to discuss the implications of the Show for the future book plot.

Which parts are true and which are nonsense? I have my thoughts. Let's discuss.

So let's start with the Iron Throne.  I don't think Bran becomes King. I cannot see any path to him being elected King by the other Great Lords. There will be a Great Council, but like always politics will win the day, and the faction with the most support will choose the King. Just like Jon's election as Lord Commander back in Book 3. 

 

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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The only thing I see happening in the books is the North becoming independent and I yet have to make up my mind about how exactly that will play out.

Politically, I don't think many things will change. Monarchy as we and they know it will remain, only probably a change of rulers will happen. You can't just change the complete system of beliefs of a whole continent and expect things will be fine. That's the whole point of Dany's current plot in Essos. I don't see Martin writing how everybody just accepted democracy or anything similar to it.

Jon not becoming King at the end will likely happen, but it won't be this ridiculous solution. The irony will be, imo, that the actual son of Rhaegar won't be the King while the fake son will likely be King (albeit for a while). Jon will get the North, the land he actually loves, while some other character will rule in the South.

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28 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Can we have a definitive thread to discuss the implications of the Show for the future book plot.

Which parts are true and which are nonsense? I have my thoughts. Let's discuss.

So let's start with the Iron Throne.  I don't think Bran becomes King. I cannot see any path to him being elected King by the other Great Lords. There will be a Great Council, but like always politics will win the day, and the faction with the most support will choose the King. Just like Jon's election as Lord Commander back in Book 3. 

 

Bookmarking to get back to later when I’m at my computer. Thanks for the thread. 

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On the true side I would imagine much has been revealed. Shireen will burn. Dany torches the city. Jon kills Dany. Bran becomes King. Drogon melts down the IT. Stannis doesn't win in the end. Littlefinger does not win in the end. Jaime and Cersei die in each other arms. Tyrion is Bran's Hand. The Others are defeated at Winterfell.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Can we have a definitive thread to discuss the implications of the Show for the future book plot.

Which parts are true and which are nonsense? I have my thoughts. Let's discuss.

So let's start with the Iron Throne.  I don't think Bran becomes King. I cannot see any path to him being elected King by the other Great Lords. There will be a Great Council, but like always politics will win the day, and the faction with the most support will choose the King. Just like Jon's election as Lord Commander back in Book 3. 

 

The show has never known how to handle Bran since season 3, so I can't imagine of all their favorite characters they would have instead chosen Bran, who hardly has any lines or any story, unless this is from the books.

The North will retain it's independence, but obviously not in a stupid manner where Sansa declares her independence in front of the rest of the leaders of the country, and everyone is okay with it and don't want their own independence.  She may be queen of the North in the books also.

Jon going back North, is probably also from the books, he may never even be recognized as Rhaegar's son by the realm.

The Others being defeated, but almost surely not to do with Arya, but instead Jon and Dany.

Dany becoming a tyrant is very GRRM, so I would be very sure this also happens.

Arya leaving Westeros, also probably from the books, but will likley play much more tragic than heroic.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The show has never known how to handle Bran since season 3, so I can't imagine of all their favorite characters they would have instead chosen Bran, who hardly has any lines or any story, unless this is from the books.

The North will retain it's independence, but obviously not in a stupid manner where Sansa declares her independence in front of the rest of the leaders of the country, and everyone is okay with it and don't want their own independence.  She may be queen of the North in the books also.

Jon going back North, is probably also from the books, he may never even be recognized as Rhaegar's son by the realm.

The Others being defeated, but almost surely not to do with Arya, but instead Jon and Dany.

Dany becoming a tyrant is very GRRM, so I would be very sure this also happens.

Arya leaving Westeros, also probably from the books, but will likley play much more tragic than heroic.

The Show diverted Sansa North in place of Jeyne Pool. That set up an arc for her which left no room for Bran and Rickon in the Northern plot. In the books I think Bran becomes Prince of Winterfell with Rickon his heir. By pushing Sansa into that space the Show diverted Bran to the Iron Throne when there is no reason whatsoever that the other Great Lords would pick a Stark as King over them all.

So Bran does become King. But King in the North, not King of Westeros. Why would the Faith pick the high priest of the Old Gods as King of the Seven Kingdoms in any case? It makes no sense.

 

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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While many of the details will likely be different in the books, I think the main events and how they conspire to the end is pretty on when it comes to the show. So now the end is spoiled for us, but I can't wait to get on the journey leading us there.

It sucks that the Lannisters were all killed and Danaerys went down, but it was a bittersweet ending that was beyond the traditional "and they lived happily ever after" so I am very happy with it and it has, as I've mentioned in other places as well, re-kindled my interest in Westeros and faith in GRRM.

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I would say the North becomes independent.

I do think Dany burns down KL but I don't think she "goes mad" but becoming a tyrant, maybe. I can't connect the dots on how she gets there yet. But I haven't thought about it too much.

Jon ending up north of the wall I could see happening and I still think he kills the NK.

The burning of the Iron Throne I could see.

I do think there will be a fight after the battle with the Others, but The Others are definitely the main enemy and take up a lot more. The Iron Throne is an after thought.

Arya I could see sailing away trying to "find her home" or a place where she belongs.

Honestly, that's about it. I think the rest of it deviates from the show.

I don't see how Bran becomes King of anything really. Though there is just so much unknown with the 3 Eye Raven and what he is all about so. His story could go so many directions.

Sansa I could see becoming Lady of the North, in the books she is learning from Little Finger, and learning things in the background. I just don't know how she gets there yet. But someone has to rule Winterfell, but there is Rickon so.... I guess he has to die somehow.

Stannis dies obviously at some point but is going to win the battle of ice so.

I think Cersei dies much sooner and Jamie completes his redemption arc.

Personally I see either Euron or f/Aegon sitting on the throne as the final enemy but again, it's not this long drawn out battle, it's more of an afterthought. Like the scouring of the shire.

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- I think Bran becomes King . But GRRM will ofc actually make sense of it and execute it better.

- The Iron throne will be destroyed

- Dany will go mad , burn KL and get stabbed by Jon

- Tyrion will be hand , Davos master of ships and Brienne kingsguard. 

- Jon will retreat North and live with the wildlings 

- Arya leaving Westeros

Stuff that will be different:

- I don't think North gets independence , not if Bran is King. There's no point in a free North when the realm already has a Stark king. So I don't think Sansa will be Queen , just Lady of Winterfell. 

- Bronn will not get Highgarden and will not be MOC. No way the Tyrells go extinct , I'm pretty sure Willas Tyrell will rule the Reach , he might be MOC aswell. 

- Gendry 's role might go to Edric Storm . I find it more likely that Edric is legitimized . Gendry might join Arya on her voyage. 

- Jaime will kill Cersei.

- Arya will not defeat the Others and there will be no NK.

- Euron might be the final villain instead of Cersei . 

- I don't think there will be a Night's watch at the end 

- I also have my doubts that the Others will be defeated at Winterfell, I think they will get to the Trident at least. I think the Others arc in general will be different, George's comment about them being Sidhe made of ice and calling them beautiful and unnatural dosen't really line up with how the show handled it. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I think Sansa has a bigger chance of ending on the new throne of the South than Bran does. I get a sense they might not have liked the visual of Sansa taking the Throne after Dany’s death so they switched her and Bran’s fates around to make the blow less painful to Dany fans. Now an emotionless robot has taken Dany’s place, rather than a rival female taking it from her.

Especially if Sansa marries shrewdly, I can see her as a powerful figure in southron politics.

That’s if there is a Throne in the South, which is by no means guaranteed. In fact, if the Iron Throne is melted I don’t quite understand why that is not a hint of the Throne being disbanded in its entirety. Why should only the North get independence.

I think what happens is Jon gets the Throne and he disbands it and heads off to the Wall to become the 1000th Lord Commander. So there is no King. Just a council of the Great Powers to govern relations between them.

 

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think Sansa has a bigger chance of ending on the new throne of the South than Bran does. I get a sense they might not have liked the visual of Sansa taking the Throne after Dany’s death so they switched her and Bran’s fates around to make the blow less painful to Dany fans. Now an emotionless robot has taken Dany’s place, rather than a rival female taking it from her.

Especially if Sansa marries shrewdly, I can see her as a powerful figure in southron politics.

That’s if there is a Throne in the South, which is by no means guaranteed. In fact, if the Iron Throne is melted I don’t quite understand why that is not a hint of the Throne being disbanded in its entirety. Why should only the North get independence.

I think what happens is Jon gets the Throne and he disbands it and heads off to the Wall to become the 1000th Lord Commander. So there is no King. Just a council of the Great Powers to govern relations between them.

 

Sansa becoming the ruling queen of Westeros would be really, really cool and certainly an even better ending than what we got. Although I see no reason as to why the realm would fracture or why a "balance of power" as the one after Napoleon would be good or better than how it turned out in reality.

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Posted (edited)

There is simply no logical path for Bran to the Throne. His place is among the weirwoods, among the Old Gods, not ruling the Andals and the followers of the Faith of the Seven.

He is called the Prince of Winterfell by George multiple times.

The lords of the South have no reason to pick him as King.

He can’t have children.

He is a boy in the books, way too young to be a King.

There is simply no way this is happening. He will be King in the North, with Rickon as his heir.

Even the Show’s outcome is not really a King. It is a kind of chancellor, elected  each time the previous one dies. In other words, some kind of Ruling Council with an elected leader. When the Iron Throne gets melted, it really means it is gone.

And I can really see Sansa thriving as King Bran of Winterfell’s ambassador on this council. And even as its elected head at some point. After all, that’s what her training arc prepared her for.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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I think the character outcomes will be the same Dany dying, Sansa becoming Queen of the North, Bran becoming the elected monarch etc. But I think the road to those outcomes will be different. I could see Dany burning KL but I don't think it will be the way it occurred in the show, that is, when the city had already surrendered. I could see it happening from the second Dance between herself and Faegon, and her eventually dying when she goes North to aid in the fight against the Others.

I also don't see Sansa going through some of the useless show plot points such as being raped by Ramsey or being in a "catfight" with Dany.

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7 minutes ago, Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™ said:

I think the character outcomes will be the same Dany dying, Sansa becoming Queen of the North, Bran becoming the elected monarch etc. But I think the road to those outcomes will be different. I could see Dany burning KL but I don't think it will be the way it occurred in the show, that is, when the city had already surrendered. I could see it happening from the second Dance between herself and Faegon, and her eventually dying when she goes North to aid in the fight against the Others.

I also don't see Sansa going through some of the useless show plot points such as being raped by Ramsey or being in a "catfight" with Dany.

I think that if Dany does burn Kings Landing, there will be a better justification than just inflicting horrific revenge on the population, after having won a relatively easy victory.

I'd be more inclined to think it would come about as the result of a terrible siege, and Dany then starts burning strategic locations within the city, and the fire gets out of hand - or some other scenario that would present her in a somewhat more sympathetic light. 

I also think the rationale for it would be better than either (a) Dany went mad at the end or (b) Dany was evil from the moment that she let Drogo pour molten gold over her brother - the two arguments that are currently being peddled. 

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1. First Tier Characters

I think some broad strokes for the main characters are taken from George, but not necessarily the execution.

Jon and Tyrion will probably end up opposing Dany after supporting her for a while. Conflict between them was almost a given, the "good guys" teaming up to fight the bad guys would make for a fairly conventional story. I even tentatively included Jon and Tyrion as two of Dany's treasons in my own theories, though I didn't go as far as Jon killing her.  Arya will probably oppose Dany too, and so might Sansa, though I don't really see her doing it for "northern independence".

I'm not sure about Bran becoming king. I don't think it's out of the question, as Preston Jacobs pointed out, George has a thing for the "all-powerful, benevolent shut-in" trope, but I dislike it. Not because I have anything against the character, but because it seems like a fantasy ending devoid of any social and political commentary... The all-powerful, benevolent shut-in isn't a solution that can be achieved in the real world. Quite the contrary, people who believe themselves to fill that role are more likely to resemble Kim Jong-un.

I also don't see Bran leaving the tree, at least not very soon. George abandoned his PoV because the character knows too much now. By that rule, for us to see him again, another PoV character would have to make the journey North and find him. That would work in a Last Hero type of arc, where the character finds Bran and learns how to stop the Long Night from him, but someone going there just to bring him back to Winterfell and King's Landing... that would take too much narrative space imho.

I can see Bran becoming a sort of god rather than a king. The voice that brings about a resurgence of the heart tree religion, or the Three Eyed Raven that lords over a continent abandoned by man. King Brandon the Broken is silly. It would be hard even for George to convince me that is a good ending.

2. Second Tier Characters

Now, the lesser main characters, such as Arya, Jaime and Sansa, are a lot more telling, I believe. The show went off the reservation with them, so by dissecting their arcs we might have a better chance at figuring out what the story might look like in the books.

Let's take a look at the major plot points for Arya:

  • She goes through a trial of sorts with the Waif, then is allowed to leave the Faceless Men with no consequence whatsoever. This never felt realistic tome, but the general consensus was that her leaving the Faceless Men was required for the plot. So let's look at the rest of the plot:
  • She infiltrates the Twins and murders all the Freys. This is obviously a beat from Lady Stoneheart's story, something we will see from Jaime or Brienne's perspective. This is 100% not Arya in the books.
  • She travels to Winterfell where she has a minor confrontation with her sister, ending with Littlefinger's death. Now, Sansa dealing with Littlefinger on her own would be a lot more satisfying. I find it very unlikely that Arya would be part of this story. Her role in it was relatively inconsequential, I'm more inclined to believe that this was simply the show writers giving her something to do.
  • She kills the Night King. There is no Night King in the books, and D&D pretty much said this was something they made up on their own. 99.999% not book material.
  • She goes to kill Cersei, but fails. Instead, she serves as a PoV for the destruction of King's Landing. This is also inconsequential and very unlikely. From the interviews, it also sounds like something the show runners made up for the sake of that episode.
  • She sails on an expedition west of Westeros. This seems to come out of nowhere for both book and show. Arya is not a sailor, and west of Westeros is not really a destination we care about. This feels like something the writers tacked on to replace her real ending, either because they didn't like it or because the character's journey in the show was so different that it no longer fit.

My conclusion has to be, therefore, that Arya's arc will be completely different in the books. My personal belief is that she will remain a member of the Faceless Men. This is, after all, the most realistic scenario. Braavos will take a more active role in opposing Dany than they did in the show (whether on Westeros or on Essos), and Arya will be sent to her as a spy or an assassin, playing a crucial role in Jon's betrayal. Having to choose between his little sister and his love represents "the human heart in conflict with itself" a lot better than "I'm in love with a genocidal maniac".

Taking a look at Jaime, Cersei and Brienne, their arcs also seem out of whack. Jaime and Cersei are very different people in the show. Cersei is a lot more intelligent and composed (unless the plot demands otherwise), and she has complete control over Euron. Jaime has more reson to respect her, and therefore his redemption arc goes nowhere. His tryst with Brienne is inconsequential (since she does not become pregnant), and by extension so is his entire trip north.

I think the only thing we can extract from the show is that Jaime is most certainly NOT the valonqar, which is a good thing, because it would have been the most obviously telegraphed prophecy interpretation in the entire series. Other than that, their arcs will likely be very different.

Cersei is very much the architect of her own demise, but she doesn't need Dany to get there. There is heavy foreshadowing that she will form an alliance with Euron, and the show confirms this, but Euron is a very different character in the books, and he won't be kind to Cersei for long. Falia Flowers in the Forsaken chapter is the perfect example of how Euron will treat Cersei: sweet at first, ruthless after he gets bored. There are even a few instances in the AFFC that foreshadow Cersei losing her tongue:

Quote

The sorceress was sleeping in the dream, as once she'd slept in life. Leave her be, the queen wanted to cry out. You little fools, never wake a sleeping sorceress. Without a tongue, she could only watch as the girl threw off her cloak, kicked the witch's bed, and said, "Wake up, we want our futures told." - AFFC, Cersei VIII

Quote

"I should have the tongues removed from all my friends," said Jaime as he filled their cups, "and from my kin as well. A silent Cersei would be sweet. Though I'd miss her tongue when we kissed." - AFFC, Jaime VII

Cersei and Euron will probably be the ones burning King's Landing when fAegon attacks it, and after they escape on the Iron Fleet, things will take a turn for the worse for Cersei. I believe the valonqar will actually be Victarion, "dragonlord" Euron's little brother, and at that point he will be putting her out of her misery more than anything else (perhaps with the purpose of depriving his brother of a king's blood sacrifice, only to take her place instead?).

Jaime has to continue his redemption arc. In the books, it is much more defined and justified.

Bare with me here, but I believe book-Jaime will actually have show-Theon's ending. His story will go full circle: he started the War of the Five Kings by pushing Bran out of that window, and he will die defending him. That ending is much more fitting for him than for Theon, since we can argue Theon already redeemed himself somewhat by rescuing Jayne Poole in the books and Sansa in the show (though it's the act that counts, not the importance of the person you save!).

This goes hand in hand with the idea that Brienne will be the Azor Ahai figure who stops the Long Night. She is not a prince or princess, but the Last Hero wasn't one either, and neither was Arya in the show. Everything matches for her: she sets out on the perfect hero's journey in AFFC, she has a magic sword that just might catch fire when thrust through unCat's heart, and she is sworn to protect Cat's children.

Well, if Brandon Stark has tapped into the root system in the caves of the BwB, trying to contact his mother who is oblivious to him due to her undead state, and he ends up sending a vision to Jaime because he's the only other person there he recognizes (just like he whispered Theon at Winterfell), wouldn't Jaime want to go help him? Wouldn't Brienne believe him, since it was a vision that sent him back to rescue her from the bear pit? Wouldn't she think it's worth killing LSH if she refuses to listen that her son is alive? Wouldn't the BwB accept her actions as just if Rh'llor blesses her sword with fire after she thrusts it through her heart? It makes perfect sense to me, how else are they going to get out of there alive? And Jaime, Brienne and the BwB all went north in the show (and did nothing because this plot line was cut).

One other little detail I would like to point out was that gratuitous fight Arya had to Brienne last season. The fact that Arya defeats her could be a nod to the fact that she took over her story line from the books. Obviously it wouldn't play out the same as the show (there probably isn't a Night King, or if there is, it's probably another greenseer stuck in a cave like Bran), but rather like Old Nan's Last Hero story (because George would actually give us the punch line to the jackass and the honeycomb joke).

 

I think these are some good starting points. I will try to abstain from bringing up other elements from the Exodus theory, since the show pissed all over that, but I do think Braavos is a better foil to Dany's conquest than Cersei and King's Landing, and I am almost convinced that Mellario Martell will be the one who kills Missandei and Norvos will be the city Dany burns (most likely by accident). If you try connect the dots between all the Dornish PoVs, it becomes hard to deny that she must play some crucial role (though not necessarily a lengthy one):

  • The clues point to Andrey Dalt being Doran's man in Arianne's party. Andrey "punishment" was to go serve Mellario, meaning there is now a way for her to find out about Quentin's mission.
  • Half the point of having Areo Hotah as a PoV was to introduce Norvos and Mellario. What would be the point of all that if we're never going there?
  • Mellario is the most likely character to want revenge for Quentin's death, and the closest to Dany geographically. In his final chapter, Quentin gives us the faintest reminder that she is in play by thinking that he "should have gone to Norvos to see [his] mother and the place that gave her birth".

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4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Can we have a definitive thread to discuss the implications of the Show for the future book plot.

Which parts are true and which are nonsense? I have my thoughts. Let's discuss.

So let's start with the Iron Throne.  I don't think Bran becomes King. I cannot see any path to him being elected King by the other Great Lords. There will be a Great Council, but like always politics will win the day, and the faction with the most support will choose the King. Just like Jon's election as Lord Commander back in Book 3. 

I think Bran will be a king. With Daenerys dying and Jon returning to his watch (or saying f#@& all that and joining the Free Folk), Dumb & Dumber needed someone to be king, so why not Bran? The show, of course, completely cut out the Second Dance of the Dragons, and reduced the Aegon subplot to having the Golden Company sell their swords to Cersei. That ain't happening in ASOIAF. Aegon won't win, and Daenerys will die, but their will be an heir. And I expect Tyrion's arc will end during that Dance. 

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4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Show diverted Sansa North in place of Jeyne Pool. That set up an arc for her which left no room for Bran and Rickon in the Northern plot. In the books I think Bran becomes Prince of Winterfell with Rickon his heir. By pushing Sansa into that space the Show diverted Bran to the Iron Throne when there is no reason whatsoever that the other Great Lords would pick a Stark as King over them all.

Absolutely. 

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3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think Sansa has a bigger chance of ending on the new throne of the South than Bran does. I get a sense they might not have liked the visual of Sansa taking the Throne after Dany’s death so they switched her and Bran’s fates around to make the blow less painful to Dany fans. Now an emotionless robot has taken Dany’s place, rather than a rival female taking it from her.

Especially if Sansa marries shrewdly, I can see her as a powerful figure in southron politics.

That’s if there is a Throne in the South, which is by no means guaranteed. In fact, if the Iron Throne is melted I don’t quite understand why that is not a hint of the Throne being disbanded in its entirety. Why should only the North get independence.

I think what happens is Jon gets the Throne and he disbands it and heads off to the Wall to become the 1000th Lord Commander. So there is no King. Just a council of the Great Powers to govern relations between them.

I don't think anything could soften that blow for Daenerys fans. 

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If Jon survives the stabbing (I really hope he does !) then he could play apart, or else all the above theories will be invalid.

- fAegon will rule Westeros for a while, then Dany will defeat him, in a second dance of dragons. But the people will hate her because they believe fAegon to be the real king. She will grow mad and become a Tyrant. I dont see Jon killing her. Because in the books, their story is far, far away from each other. I think she will actually rule a little while longer but will eventually be killed. 

- Bran won’t become king, because he is the Three Eyed Raven. Maybe he wont even return from behind the wall ? 

- Rickon will be Lord of Winterfell. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think that if Dany does burn Kings Landing, there will be a better justification than just inflicting horrific revenge on the population, after having won a relatively easy victory.

I'd be more inclined to think it would come about as the result of a terrible siege, and Dany then starts burning strategic locations within the city, and the fire gets out of hand - or some other scenario that would present her in a somewhat more sympathetic light. 

I also think the rationale for it would be better than either (a) Dany went mad at the end or (b) Dany was evil from the moment that she let Drogo pour molten gold over her brother - the two arguments that are currently being peddled. 

As opposed to HBO's GOT, there is no reason for Daenerys to go bananas to justify killing her off in ASOIAF. There, we will have a Second Dance of the Dragons, in which she can heroically, but tragically, die as she is overwhelmed by three treasons. If it weren't for that darn lemon tree...

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