Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, divica said:

I knew it!

Oh, so you live in the old world. In the new world, we got Barristan. 

I any event, we're supposed to use spoilers whenever we discuss material from Winds. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, BlueNightzx said:

just wanna add that "Red Rahloo" should be the official name for R'hllor from now on

Always has been since Dance, as far as I am concerned. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Always has been since Dance, as far as I am concerned. 

Except for those who put a lot of faith in the fiery god... they always use R’hllor. But Red Rahloo is so much better, and the context in which we’ve learned this... “alias” is just perfection.

 

[Ser Quork]

9 hours ago, HouseLancaster said:

The only story beats I can see being Martin's at this point, are;

Bran - King (but as Bran!), maybe Tyrion as Hand too

Dany's apparent madness

Jon killing Dany

Asha - lady of Iron Islands, but that's an easy one, and Brienne - Kingsguard

In book 6 I figured; Jon, Asha and co would conquer the North, Sansa would gain influence/control over the Vale, then there's the Brotherhood in the Riverlands and they all converge around the Twins. To cut a long story short, by the end the fAegon, Dany, Cersei situation is resolved, Bran plays an integral role in defeating the Others and the Starks take/save the 7 Kingdoms. Bran being the oldest male of the House is named King. After which, Bran legitimises Jon (the Stark name needs to be carried on), he wardens the North and Sansa ends up either Lady of Riverun or the Vale (Warden of the West?). Arya will retain her humanity, grow up (like her Aunt did) - maybe rules Stormlands with Gendry? And I can still see Jorah being the 1000's commander of the Nightswatch. 

Bronn gets nothing, Sam is not Grand Meistser and the major southern Houses are still in tact.

As a rule, I just think the characters arcs will progress, and their final positions will be won/earned - unlike in the show.

I'm on board with this.

[divica]

23 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

I'm on board with this.

Me too. I still have no clue why people would accept bran on the IT but I agree with everything else. 

[Maia]

14 hours ago, divica said:

Because stannis taking winterfell is completly useless. The north is divided and he can t unite it without a stark.

Isn't Davos conveniently fetching one for him? And it is fairly useful, since he, at least, is aware of the danger of the Others and can start to prepare the North for it, though with only a very partial success.

 

Quote

Ther northerns won t march south and won t completly join him… 

Indeed not. That's the whole point - the "ungrateful northeners" plot fits Stannis's arc far more than Dany's. Nor is there really time for him to march south, if GRRM is serious about the Long Night. If he is not, well, anything can happen, but IMHO the incessant squabbling for power is getting fairly boring and repetitive. There is a full roster of people fighting in the south already.

 

Quote

Then stannis has to return to the Wall to see how the preparations are going to man the Wall. And why would he leave the Wall if massey might arrive at any moment with sellswords?

Why? Massey didn't even leave yet and it is very doubtful that he'd be able to find many sellswords willing to go fight in the North in winter, particularly not if they have to land as far north as Eastwatch. Especially since there is currently a recruitment craze in southern Essos. And if Davos brings Rickon, Stannis will have the White Harbour Port to use, which is a far more reasonable place to land an army, supposing that Massey actually manages to hire one eventually and chooses to bring it to Stannis, rather than FAegon. Masseys used to be very tight with Targaryens, after all.

 

Quote

And no matter what you may think of ramsay roose is a very interesting villain. He probably wiil have a backstory and it makes sense to have him vs a stark… Roose vs stannis is kind of useless...

Roose is an interesting enemy, Ramsey not so much. It is entirely possible that Roose won't be finished when Winterfell falls, but manages to escape and to remain a thorn in the protagonist's side, helps the Others out of spite or whatever. However, there are only 2 books left and new things need to be happening, rather than the constant regurgitation of what we have already seen before.

Basically, it all hinges on the question - will Martin treat the Long Night in the same lacklustre way as the show did or will he stretch his muscles as a horror writer (which he used to be quite good as) and make it something memorable? I am unabashedly for the latter - which is why I think that we saw almost nothing of Jon's book arc in the show. Instead, it seems to me that he mostly inherited Stannis's and FAegon's plots.

 

13 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

He's not dead right now. I think the story would be served better if he's out of commission for a longer time, allowing Stannis to ruin his relationship with the North and possibly lose to the Others all without Jon's intervention.

I used to think that Jon was not dead and would be healed by the same ritual as Mirri used on Drogo, only performed properly, rather than with the intention of turning the patient into a vegetable. Unlike the fire-wights, Drogo's wound was actually healed. But after what we have seen in the show about Jon's ending, I am not sure. Also, having the funky flaming blood would be very helpful in a scenario where the Others are not a droid army.

 

Quote

Robb's will is what frees him of his vows and makes him KitN. The resurrection, even if it happens, is just a red herring with regards to the vows, and he doesn't need to fight the Boltons to prove himself as king. He is king by Robb's decree.

Yea, book Jon was already breaking his vows and leaving the Wall when he was killed, so the "death" loophole in the oaths is completely unnecessary. It is also quite ludicrous to think that people would believe in it and accept it without question, like they did in the show, where even Cersei somehow totally bought that Jon was still super-honorable, rather than a power-hungry oathbreaker. He could have just left the Wall at the end of ADwD and been saved from the charges of desertion by Robb's will turning up, if that's where GRRM was going.

But is it? Given how quickly the whole KiTN thing was dispensed with in the show and Jon's ending, I kinda doubt it.

IMHO, Jon getting assassinated was in part to _stop_ him from going down that road.

 

Quote

But Roose vs Stannis is already in the final phase!  If Roose loses, the story can progress to the Others, to the mother fucking stepping stone to the endgame. If Stannis loses, the story goes into another side quest loop. Roose vs Jon, interesting or not, is not necessary for progressing anything. Why not have Jon vs Lady Dustin afterwards? She's interesting too...

Very much so, always provided that GRRM didn't become as enamored with incessant power struggles as D&D and still intends to deal with the threat of the Others and the Long Night, which should be devastating even without them, properly. His intended endings for the main characters, as presented by the show, raised some doubts in my mind, but I am still hoping that he isn't going for the cheap and underwhelming resolution.

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Maia

[Ser Quork]

39 minutes ago, divica said:

Me too. I still have no clue why people would accept bran on the IT but I agree with everything else. 

I think they would if Bran makes a substantive and quantifiable difference to the war, for example., using the ravens to scout positions or using his ability to see elsewhere to gain advantages for their own armies.  He did sit as Lord of Winterfell before Theon took over the castle so he does have some of that experience too.  I mean - it could work if it's told properly.

[Orphalesion]

So anybody else assuming that in the book Faegon, after taking King's Landing will somehow get one of Daenerys' Dragons and the city will be torched when he and Daenerys (and possibly Jon beign somewhere in the mix too) make heir dragons "dance" over KL?

[divica]

2 hours ago, Maia said:

Isn't Davos conveniently fetching one for him? And it is fairly useful, since he, at least, is aware of the danger of the Others and can start to prepare the North for it, though with only a very partial success.

But stannis doesn t know it and has no reason to believe anything the manderleys tell him. The moment he conquers winterfell and names some northern or one of his southerns warden of the north he loses the north. 

The moment he rewards one of his southerns with the dreadfort or another free castle he loses the north (and he already wanted to give them castles of the NW so he would defenitly reward them now)

And what does stannis know about preparing the north for winter and the others? 

2 hours ago, Maia said:

Very much so, always provided that GRRM didn't become as enamored with incessant power struggles as D&D and still intends to deal with the threat of the Others and the Long Night, which should be devastating even without them, properly. His intended endings for the main characters, as presented by the show, raised some doubts in my mind, but I am still hoping that he isn't going for the cheap and underwhelming resolution.

The problem is that stannis can t unite people against the others. He can t even unite the north… Even with rickon people will think he and wyman are only using rickon as a pawn. And robbs will that places jon as his heir will also cause division...

Stannis conquering winterfell might acelarete the conflict with the boltons but it creates a lot of other dificulties… While jon or rickon represented by jon can unite the north easily and even get support from the vale and riverlands. Besides being a much better choice to get more aliances from the south with danny or faegon. Stannis can t do anything of these… He is and obstacle to preparing the north agains the others...

And for me there is also something inhuman about roose that will be important for the upcoming conflict with the others...

The best he can do is go to the Wall because he belives he is AA and will stop the others there...

[divica]

2 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

I think they would if Bran makes a substantive and quantifiable difference to the war, for example., using the ravens to scout positions or using his ability to see elsewhere to gain advantages for their own armies.  He did sit as Lord of Winterfell before Theon took over the castle so he does have some of that experience too.  I mean - it could work if it's told properly.

But those powers are kind of creepy… Did people like bloodraven? No...

Edited May 22, 2019 by divica

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, divica said:

But those powers are kind of creepy… Did people like bloodraven? No...

Not at all

I am very, very curious how George R.R. Martin plans to handle the Stannis issue especially once Sansa shows 

Oh and the question of when Jon will wake up/be resurrected is a very tough one. Is he resurrected before the Wall is destroyed but after Winterfell falls? Is he resurrected before Winterfell and the Wall falls? Is he resurrected after the Wall and Winterfell fall? Does he reunite with Sansa at Castle Black or at Winterfell?

The timing of all this is really complicated.

[Hodor's Dragon]

There should be a forum dedicated to this topic.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Sansa will rebuild Winterfell. That is clear from the Snowcastle scene in the Vale. But in what capacity? Regent to Rickon? Hand to Bran the King in the North? Power player in southron politics who orchestrates beneficial outcomes for the North? We don’t know.

[BalerionTheCat]

I don't think Bran will leave the cave. Anyway, he can't' be king of 6 kingdoms he doesn't belong to

The 7 kingdoms were a thing of the Targaryens. The kingdoms will regain some autonomy. Not just the North. The IT and KL will be totally destroyed and not rebuilt.

Jon will not be king. He will form a new Watch, not against the return of the Others, but to prevent future wars between the 7 independent kingdoms. The Starks seemed successful at protecting the North. No army of their own. But they could call their bannermens. And they would come, if the cause seem just. Like they did for Ned, and after for his "little girl" (even if Stannis was doing the call). The Starks are loved and respected. No one (of importance) made alliance when the Andals, during the invasions. They all stood together.  Jon could do the same for all Westeros, "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men".  If a kingdom invades another, or if a king becomes a tyrant, he could call the other kings, and assemble an army sufficient to deal with the problem. sufficient even to dissuade would be conquerors. Whatever the means, Jon is the PtwP, the "gift of the gods". This will mean a lot in ASoIaF. And the story will have a feel of finish. That mankind paid a lot, but they got real peace in the bargain.

Daenerys will return to Westeros with the Dothrakis. But they will be no "peace keepers". Their religion is tearing down civilizations and it's what they will do (or try).

Meereen will be a disaster (is already). The plague killing almost everyone. Volantis and Ghis bringing home infested slaves and soldiers and spreading still more the plague.

Daenerys will lose 2 of her dragons, to Euron who will be the arch evil in place of the NK who doesn't exist. Maybe another dragon to Benerro and the Red Priests.

There will not be a single Other to kill to abort the Long Night. The Night will come and not just the North will pay the price. The Others were not created by the CotF. They are servants of the Lion of Night, the death god. And they can't be defeated. I believe they came because of the evil deeds of men. Jon and the men of good will will have to "fix" what's wrong  to have them leaving. In this way GRRM story is still a message about climate change. I believe the legends about Yi-Ti and the Long Night are relevant to the contemporary situation.

Rickon will not die. He will be the KotN, Lord of Winterfell. Not sure what Sansa will be. Val will be Jon's wife.

fAegon will conquer most of Westeros, but not KL. He will be loved, meaning Daenerys will not be wanted. I suppose Cersei will keep KL. Not sure if she or Daenerys will destroy it. Maybe both.

Jaime is the valonqar and he will kill Cersei. Valonqar means they are the Aerys' bastards, not Tyrion. I've some idea how it could be revealed. But it may be left to speculation. Anyway there are enough parallels between the Aerys' 2 daughters.

Edited May 22, 2019 by BalerionTheCat

[divica]

6 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't think Bran will leave the cave. Anyway, he can't' be king of 6 kingdoms he doesn't belong to

The 7 kingdoms were a thing of the Targaryens. The kingdoms will regain some autonomy. Not just the North. The IT and KL will be totally destroyed and not rebuilt.

Jon will not be king. He will form a new Watch, not against the return of the Others, but to prevent future wars between the 7 independent kingdoms. The Starks seemed successful at protecting the North. No army of their own. But they could call their bannermens. And they could come, if the cause is just. Like they did for Ned, and after for his "little girl" (even if Stannis was doing the call). The Starks are loved and respected. No one (of importance) made alliance when the Andals, during the invasions. They all stood together.  Jon could do the same for all Westeros, "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men".  If a kingdom invades another, or if a king becomes a tyrant, he could call the other kings, and assemble an army sufficient to deal with the problem. sufficient even to dissuade would be conquerors. Whatever the means, Jon is the PtwP, the "gift of the gods". This will mean a lot in ASoIaF. And the story will have a feel of finish. That mankind paid a lot, but they got real peace in the bargain. 

Daenerys will return to Westeros with the Dothrakis. But they will be no "peace keepers". Their religion is tearing down civilizations and it's what they will do (or try).

Meereen will be a disaster (is already). The plague killing almost everyone. Volantis and Ghis bringing home infested slaves and soldiers and spreading still more the plague.

Daenerys will lose 2 of her dragons, to Euron who will be the arch evil in place of the NK who doesn't exist. Maybe another dragon to Benerro and the Red Priests.

There will not be a single Other to kill to abort the Long Night. The Night will come and not just the North will pay the price. The Others were not created by the CotF. They are servants of the Lion of Night, the death god. And they can't be defeated. I believe they came because of the evil deeds of men. Jon and the men of good will will have to "fix" what's wrong  to have them leaving. In this way GRRM story is still a message about climate change. I believe the legends about Yi-Ti and the Long Night are relevant to the contemporary situation.

Rickon will not die. He will be the KotN, Lord of Winterfell. Not sure what Sansa will be. Val will be Jon's wife.

fAegon will conquer most of Westeros, but not KL. He will be loved, meaning Daenerys will not be wanted. I suppose Cersei will keep KL. Not sure if she or Daenerys will destroy it. Maybe both.

Jaime is the valonqar and he will kill Cersei. Valonqar means they are the Aerys' bastards, not Tyrion. I've some idea how it could be revealed. But it may be left to speculation. Anyway there are enough parallels between the Aerys' 2 daughters.

Better story than the tv series…

You could say that the children found some others from some ancient time and used magic to release them because they were losing the war. Then things got out of control...

I liked the idea that jon will transform the NW into some knight order that keeps the peace and order in the 7 kingdoms… It is original.

 

[Lion of the West]

On 5/21/2019 at 9:07 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Jon is on ice, literally and figuratively. Manderly has pledged his support, and Stannis ought to be able to able to lead a force of Northmen south like Creegan did to save their damilies from more mouths to feed. That's where Drogon can melt his face, and Daenerys can take his troops to help her battle Aegon. And then Satin, dressed like Prince Charming can give Jon a kiss and wake the sleeper to battle the Others. Ok, maybe not quite like that, but perhaps you get my point.

I'll just smile, nod and move on.

 

[HouseLancaster]

12 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

I think they would if Bran makes a substantive and quantifiable difference to the war, for example., using the ravens to scout positions or using his ability to see elsewhere to gain advantages for their own armies.  He did sit as Lord of Winterfell before Theon took over the castle so he does have some of that experience too.  I mean - it could work if it's told properly.

I agree. That's the key part isn't it - IF it's told properly. Should the Starks WIN the thrown it would be difficult for anyone in that society to question Bran being named (they'd not long before accepted Joffrey and Tommen). Also the show runners couldn't work out/imagine what to do with any of the magical elements of the show - which badly effected the Bran and the 'great war'.  

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, HouseLancaster said:

I agree. That's the key part isn't it - IF it's told properly. Should the Starks WIN the thrown it would be difficult for anyone in that society to question Bran being named (they'd not long before accepted Joffrey and Tommen). Also the show runners couldn't work out/imagine what to do with any of the magical elements of the show - which badly effected the Bran and the 'great war'.  

They accepted Joffrey and Tommen due to them being the acknowledged heirs of Robert Baratheon. Both being healthy, both marrying early, neither thought of as being impotent and both having the backing of much of the kingdom. Both were also anointed by the High Septon, something that seems unlikely to happen with Bran. 

In the first few books we witness what other characters think of Bran, his father's closest friend and his distant Karstark cousins all pity him and think he would be better off dead. This is the mentality of the world they live in. They are not going to nominate him as King. The Same is true for Bronn and the Reach, unless he is married to Margaery and her father and brothers are all dead there is zero chance the Reach lords accept him as their Lord.

I'm not ruling out the books following the show, but that ending was pure pandering, its the type of ending that is wished for on these kind of forums. The Starks ruling both the North and the South can be pulled from any fan fantasy ending to the series.  Arya and Jon can't be in their shadow so they both leave and do their own thing.

Not only that the realm accepting Tyrion, the kingslayer, kinslayer hated dwarf as the de facto ruler is also not going to wash. Brienne is a worthy knight but the realm would see her appointment as a joke. Having two commoners on the Small Council just exacerbates the problem.

Its hard to see GRRM going with the majority of these choices as King and Council.

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Bernie Mac

[Lion of the West]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They accepted Joffrey and Tommen due to them being the acknowledged heirs of Robert Baratheon. Both being healthy, both marrying early, neither thought of as being impotent and both having the backing of much of the kingdom. Both were also anointed by the High Septon, something that seems unlikely to happen with Bran. 

In the first few books we witness what other characters think of Bran, his father's closest friend and his distant Karstark cousins all pity him and think he would be better off dead. This is the mentality of the world they live in. They are not going to nominate him as King. The Same is true for Bronn and the Reach, unless he is married to Margaery and her father and brothers are all dead there is zero chance the Reach lords accept him as their Lord.

I'm not ruling out the books following the show, but that ending was pure pandering, its the type of ending that is wished for on these kind of forums. The Starks ruling both the North and the South can be pulled from any fan fantasy ending to the series.  Arya and Jon can't be in their shadow so they both leave and do their own thing.

Not only that the realm accepting Tyrion, the kingslayer, kinslayer hated dwarf as the de facto ruler is also not going to wash. Brienne is a worthy knight but the realm would see her appointment as a joke. Having two commoners on the Small Council just exacerbates the problem.

Its hard to see GRRM going with the majority of these choices as King and Council.

 

I suppose this is one of the few times I feel that I am in a serious disagreemen with you. My credientals as a Lannister fanboy should be impeccable and I still love this endning and was totally ok with the Starks taking home the end game. I'll try to explain why that is. Although I should note that GRRM across two books are most likely going to be able to show a great many more things to make this ending possible as opposed what can be put into the available screen time for GoT.

Alot of this will be speculation but I hope it won't be baseless.

To start with Bran I think that the reason as to why he would work is that does have his magical powers, and I think that we will see them put into action as well as he being able to confirm that it is indeed he who wields those powers. So that's probably why he gets considered from the first go. He will be known to have done much about the Others while at the same time both being from an known and ancient noble House and also not being associated with any particular political camp will mean that no one will need to feel that the others got "their candiate" on the throne when Bran becomes king. Given the wounds and rifts left after wars and conflicts that the book depicts, a guy without clear affiliations to be it Lannister, Baratheon or Targaryen will probably be easier to swallow than an ex-member from any faction. Yes, he is affiliated with the Starks but I think that his young age and lack of involvement on the Stark side during the war will speak to his favor as well as the fact that the enemies with whom the Starks would probably have a conflict with; Frey, Bolton and Lannister (and perhaps Clegane), seems to no longer be of importance, hence that part will be moot as few people will have a reason to fear retribution from King Stark.

Also I think that you ascribe to much "win" to Jon and Arya's endings. Both of them, in particular Jon, refused many paths that could have lead him to a more enjoyable life, be it as Danaerys' consort, the Lord of Winterfell or what you've got. That Jon does sacrifice his honour for the sake of the realm and picks duty over love and personal success seems very much like an incredibly admirable thing to do. I know that I've talked alot of crap about Jon but I consider myself to be a person with an open mind so I am entirely willing to take all of that back and look on Jon much more favorably. As for Arya I think that he decision to leave Westeros for the seas to the west don't seem all to happy for her.

To start with Tyrion is, to my knowledge, more contempted than hated outside of the West and probably King's Landing. And yes, it does feel a bit like that he will not be a highly respected or beloved Hand of the King but it also seems to me that he is still, even though all he has done and been through, a noble known from an ancient House of previous regal standing and being descended from such means that he would be far more digestable than many others as many noble houses have been wiped out or decimated and so that shrinks the pool of possible recruits severely.

As for Brienne might be considered a joke to many, but we know she's been teaching chavunists the opposite since she was introduced to the story, I don't see why she shouldn't be able to continue doing this in grand style after she takes on a white cloak. In fact I think that with a knight as valiant and skilled as Brienne King Bran would have a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to start that organization's slow climb out the abyss they've fallen into. As someone with interests in both the medieval knighthood and the chivalry that was associated with knights, this is among the best parts of the ending for me.

Also who would be the two commoners on the Small Council? Both Davos and Bronn may have been knighted in their life times but they are still nobles.

And I think, or maybe its just that I imagine, but that one of the reasons to why the nobility accepts Bran and his Small Council is that after year after year of war and violence, greed and abuse of power, with one tyrant replacing another, people from noble to commoner might just be so sick of it that they don't have stomach for another round of war but just wants it all to finally end and let them live in peace again.

[Runaway Penguin]

On 5/20/2019 at 5:31 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Can we have a definitive thread to discuss the implications of the Show for the future book plot.

Which parts are true and which are nonsense? I have my thoughts. Let's discuss.

So let's start with the Iron Throne.  I don't think Bran becomes King. I cannot see any path to him being elected King by the other Great Lords. There will be a Great Council, but like always politics will win the day, and the faction with the most support will choose the King. Just like Jon's election as Lord Commander back in Book 3. 

 

Jon was elected because the two major factions would rather see him than the other faction there  I suspect something like that would happen. Kinda Brexit plan voting situation: Not only no single candidate would get majority support in the Council, but every single candidate will also be unacceptable to at least few of the other factions.

After some time of deadlock... Sam and Tyrion start to do the same Sam did in the NW election, quiet words with leaders of the factions, embellishing the facts, playing on their animosities with the others etc. (or maybe only Sam as Tyrion would play up to be another unacceptable faction).

 

It just won't happen in few minutes among 12 people or so, but it will happen.