Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm not a timeline fanatic but yeah I believe he's about 10 by the end of dance.  I think that makes it entirely plausible he's around 14-15 by the end of ADOS.  Even if he's 12-13, I don't see that being much of a substantive difference if he proves himself essential to saving existence from the Others.

A 12 year old elected king would be pretty crazy, especially after the disastrous run of the 13 year old Joff and the 8 year old Tommen, I'd think Westeros would demand someone who is at least a teenager and would be seen as a man, so he'd have to 14, which I think? was the age Robb was when he takes over.  Otherwise, it becomes a really silly ending.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm not a timeline fanatic but yeah I believe he's about 10 by the end of dance.  I think that makes it entirely plausible he's around 14-15 by the end of ADOS.  Even if he's 12-13, I don't see that being much of a substantive difference if he proves himself essential to saving existence from the Others.

IT depends on how he contibutes. If it is based on his warging abilities or vision powers what does it matter about his abilities as king?

Even if he becomes a war hero it doesn t make him king material. He needs backing and experience!

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

A 12 year old elected king would be pretty crazy, especially after the disastrous run of the 13 year old Joff and the 8 year old Tommen, I'd think Westeros would demand someone who is at least a teenager and would be seen as a man, so he'd have to 14, which I think? was the age Robb was when he takes over.  Otherwise, it becomes a really silly ending.

I believe Robb was 15 when he was named KitN.  But again, these are such small differences I don't see why anyone would care that much.  That's just me though.

1 minute ago, divica said:

If it is based on his warging abilities or vision powers what does it matter about his abilities as king?

Even if he becomes a war hero it doesn t make him king material. He needs backing and experience!

Well, I'm not going to even start to hypothesize on how he will prove invaluable - don't really want to, that's the fun in reading.  But I do expect it to be more than simply warging abilities, I agree those are generally viewed as suspect by most of Westeros.  If I were to venture any type of general guess, it may be something like "if Bran didn't figure ________ out, every one of us would be dead."  As for experience - being a greenseer is, like, the most intense crash course in experience conceivably possible.  And as for backing he'll have the North, with presumably Sansa, who likely will have the Vale, and presumably the Riverlands.  After the second Dance it's entirely plausible that's the most powerful bloc in the realm.

[divica]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Well, I'm not going to even start to hypothesize on how he will prove invaluable - don't really want to, that's the fun in reading.  But I do expect it to be more than simply warging abilities, I agree those are generally viewed as suspect by most of Westeros.  If I were to venture any type of general guess, it may be something like "if Bran didn't figure ________ out, every one of us would be dead."  As for experience - being a greenseer is, like, the most intense crash course in experience conceivably possible.  And as for backing he'll have the North, with presumably Sansa, who likely will have the Vale, and presumably the Riverlands.  After the second Dance it's entirely plausible that's the most powerful bloc in the realm.

I don t see how Bran being useful because of his visions would make people want him to be king. It sounds like something that religious people or maesters might be interested. As the old gods are only important in the north and people don t really respect maesters I don t see how it could lead him to kingship...

Then if bran isn t in charge of the north why would people think he should be in charge of all of westeros?

And why wouldn t the other regions want Independence? Why would dorne accept bran as their king?

And every lord has knowledge about the history of westeros that took them years to learn. Is bran going to learn what taxes to apply with his visions?

Bran should only become a candidate to being king if he shows people his leading abilities...

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Not if fight against the Others leads to the massive resurgence of the Old Gods religion.

There are only two books left, if there were more or if GRRM was capable of doing time jumps I'd agree with this premise.

The first 5 books timeline is over the course of just under 3 years, its difficult to imagine that the next two will be significantly more than that.

I can't see an entire continent changing religion that quickly, not unless the Old Gods manifest themselves and speak directly to the people.

The Faith, like the Red God, will be claiming their gods are behind this, the average peasant will listen to their Septon.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

 

Also, more Great  Houses need to fall - there has to be sweeping change of political landscape at the end of the series, otherwise it would have all been quite pointless and a waste of  time.

I really don't get this train of thought. The story is the story, its not about breaking the wheel, its about an apocalyptic once in a millennia invasion.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

If Arryns, Tullys and Baratheons - who are all teering on the edge of extinction, are gone, the Lannisters are seriously disgraced, and the Starks are seen as the heroes with a divine connection, then it could work. 

In the books there are plenty of Arryns. I'd imagine there are also other branches of Tully's and Baratheons, those two Houses have had their Houses forfeit.

 

4 hours ago, DMC said:

So magically-derived knowledge is now unearned or something?  As opposed to what the maesters have been meandering about for hundreds of years?

Yes. Bran in the final book being able to conjure up the best form of government via magic is unearned.

The realm being fixed because a magical guy is in charge is much sillier than Tolkien not talking about Aragon's tax policies.

And the realm has already had a magical guy in a positon of power, the realm was in chaos under Bloodraven with him ignoring the civil wars in the West and the North between the Ionrborn and those regions.

4 hours ago, DMC said:

Uh, he would if the most available Targaryen heir is a choice between Edric Storm and Arianne Martell.  Or, hell, maybe Brienne in the middle there.

All three are better options than a cripple who can sire children.

4 hours ago, DMC said:

Yeah that worked out great.  We can argue about when exactly the War of the Roses started and ended all day.  I don't think it matters much.

It does matter, it offers a mindset to the society GRRM has been writing about. He's continually pointed out that his world is based on the middle ages and criticized other authors for not representing how the people thought in these times, how simplistic many authors are in fantasy.

GRRM; "I was also reading a lot of historical fiction. And the contrast between that and a lot of the fantasy at the time was dramatic because a lot of the fantasy of Tolkien imitators has a quasi-medieval setting, but it’s like the Disneyland Middle Ages. You know, they’ve got tassels and they’ve got lords and stuff like that, but they don’t really seem to grasp what it was like in the Middle Ages. And then you’d read the historical fiction which was much grittier and more realistic and really give you a sense of what it was like to live in castles or to be in a battle with swords and things like that. And I said what I want to do is combine some of the realism of historical fiction with some of the appeal of fantasy, the magic and the wonder that the best fantasy has."

The Starks ending up ruling both the South and the North is a Disney ending, the cripple boy becoming King and everyone accepting that is the Disney ending.

 

4 hours ago, DMC said:

 

First, their families would retain their power, no idea what you're saying there.  Maybe you just don't get it.  Second, says you.  That is - resolutely - like, your opinion man.

If Bran's a success then why would it only be Kings who were elected? Why not Overlords, Lords and landed knights?

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t see how Bran being useful because of his visions would make people want him to be king. It sounds like something that religious people or maesters might be interested. As the old gods are only important in the north and people don t really respect maesters I don t see how it could lead him to kingship...

I suspect it will demonstrate Bran holds wisdom no one else living possesses.  So, yeah, that's a pretty compelling argument to choose him in a council with no obvious candidates.

4 minutes ago, divica said:

Then if bran isn t in charge of the north why would people think he should be in charge of all of westeros?

And why wouldn t the other regions want Independence? Why would dorne accept bran as their king?

And every lord has knowledge about the history of westeros that took them years to learn. Is bran going to learn what taxes to apply with his visions?

1.  Because they want him to rule all of Westeros instead of just the North.  2.  This is a good question.  If the North gains independence - which I think is possible - I'm inclined to think Dorne and the II will demand it as well -- and perhaps even the Vale.  It's the other 5 regions - Westerlands, Reach, Riverlands, Stormlands, Crownlands - that makeup the heart of Westeros.  And these are likely to be more in need of rebuilding than the those 3 other regions (omitting the North, of course, which already needs rebuilding).  3.  Maybe?  I don't know how he learns.  Perhaps he's the "last greenseer" because he has the Martin-world equivalent of an eidetic memory.

10 minutes ago, divica said:

Bran should only become a candidate to being king if he shows people his leading abilities...

He has already led a rag-tag group of followers out of the ashes of Winterfell to the wall, then well beyond to find a magical tree.  While certainly not in breadth and scope that Dany or Jon (or even Tyrion) has, the books have been showing Bran developing leadership abilities.  Have many people seen that?  No.  But will many living Westerosi lords have seen Jon's efforts at the Wall?  Or Dany's in Meereen.

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. Bran in the final book being able to conjure up the best form of government via magic is unearned. [...]

Alright, think I'm done with this discussion.  You're just reiterating the same denigrative logic over and over again.  There's no reason to continue us talking over each other.

ETA:

Quote

It does matter, it offers a mindset to the society GRRM has been writing about. He's continually pointed out that his world is based on the middle ages and criticized other authors for not representing how the people thought in these times, how simplistic many authors are in fantasy.

Ok, I will respond to this, because it's a bunch of bullshit.  Suggesting the Lords get together and choose Bran the cripple is not Martin being ahistorical.  A council demanding permanent power - which would be the idea in appointing a monarch not only without but that cannot have a successor - is very much in line with middle-age history.  Acting like this is some huge paradigm shift is either ignorant or disingenuous.

Edited May 24, 2019 by DMC

[BalerionTheCat]

9 hours ago, DMC said:

I think it's hilarious you guys are like "Bran? Man that's crazy!"  While in the same breath are willing to entertain Robin as someone that could hold any influence.

Sweenrobin? This boy? Husband to Sansa and father of the Starks to come?

Quote

CATELYN VI
He was a painfully thin child, small for his age and sickly all his days, and from time to time he trembled. The shaking sickness, the maesters called it.
...

“Quiet!” Lysa snapped at her. “You’re scaring the boy.” Little Robert took a quick peek over his shoulder at Catelyn and began to tremble. His doll fell to the rushes, and he pressed himself against his mother. “Don’t be afraid, my sweet baby,” Lysa whispered. “Mother’s here, nothing will hurt you.” She opened her robe and drew out a pale, heavy breast, tipped with red. The boy grabbed for it eagerly, buried his face against her chest, and began to suck. Lysa stroked his hair.
Catelyn was at a loss for words, Jon Arryn’s son, she thought incredulously. She remembered her own baby, three-year-old Rickon, half the age of this boy and five times as fierce. Small wonder the lords of the Vale were restive.

SANSA VII
Robert was small for eight, a stick of a boy with splotchy skin and eyes that were always runny.

ALAYNE
Robert had spindly arms and legs, a soft concave chest and little belly, and eyes that were always red and runny. He cannot help the way he is. He was born small and sickly.

[martianmister]

I'm pretty sure Bran is going to be the king in the south.

Spoiler

Because it's part of GRRM's original plans.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-game-of-thrones-story-we-almost-had-early-letters-to-grrms-editor-show-his-plan-for-a-trilogy-ending-in-jon-vs-bran-vs-daenerys.118548/

 

[divica]

35 minutes ago, martianmister said:

I'm pretty sure Bran is going to be the king in the south.

  Hide contents

Because it's part of GRRM's original plans.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-game-of-thrones-story-we-almost-had-early-letters-to-grrms-editor-show-his-plan-for-a-trilogy-ending-in-jon-vs-bran-vs-daenerys.118548/

 

To be fair he isn t the endgame king in those original plans… I would say faegon will take the role bran has in there.

[divica]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Sweenrobin? This boy? Husband to Sansa and father of the Starks to come?

With lisa dead if grrm wants he can have people toughen up robin.

Otherwise just marry sansa to Harry...

It is kind of indiferent….

[A Ghost of Someone]

I think Rickon will live and continue the Stark name in the North out of Winterfell.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, divica said:

With lisa dead if grrm wants he can have people toughen up robin.

I don't think. He seems seriously ill. The maester barely keeps him alive when he has his crises. IMO manhandling him would kill him.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, divica said:

With lisa dead if grrm wants he can have people toughen up robin.

Toughen up Robin how?  The boy needs a staff to get him out of bed.

[Ser Quork]

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't think. He seems seriously ill. The maester barely keeps him alive when he has his crises. IMO manhandling him would kill him.

He'd probably get better if they'd stop poisoning him, don't you think?

[BalerionTheCat]

21 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

He'd probably get better if they'd stop poisoning him, don't you think?

Maybe LF is doing it. But is seems difficult to keep someone consistently on the doorstep of death from the birth to the age of 8, with poison Which one would do that? Every poison used in ASoIaF has been described some way before
Besides Lysa had 5 miscarriages and 2 stillborn before Robin. No wonder the boy is sick.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I really don't get this train of thought. The story is the story, its not about breaking the wheel, its about an apocalyptic once in a millennia invasion.

No. It's about the nature of power and a study on how to deal with it and what it causes. The "apocalyptic once in a millenia invasion" is just the text. Politics is the actual subtext. (But I don't see why more houses need to fall, specially considering the show does not presents many of them either way.)

[Bernie Mac]

46 minutes ago, Jon Mark Selmy said:

No. It's about the nature of power and a study on how to deal with it and what it causes. The "apocalyptic once in a millenia invasion" is just the text. Politics is the actual subtext. (But I don't see why more houses need to fall, specially considering the show does not presents many of them either way.)

Politics is the subtext, political revolution is not. In interviews GRRM has gone to lengths pointing out the flaws in other fantasy writers of not understanding what these societies were like.

Change takes decades, maybe longer. The series so far has taken place over three years, there is not likely to be more than 5 years in the last two books. The nobles of Westeros are not going to change their stance on their society in that time.

GRRM has already shown just this in Essos with Astapor reverting back to a slave city shortly after Dany has left. Obviously GRRM does not think slavery is acceptable, but he's also not whitewashing the problem by having it solved so quickly. Westeros is not changing its culture and values in the space of the series.

 

19 hours ago, DMC said:

Alright, think I'm done with this discussion.  You're just reiterating the same denigrative logic over and over again.  There's no reason to continue us talking over each other.

No one is forcing you to reply.

19 hours ago, DMC said:

 

Ok, I will respond to this, because it's a bunch of bullshit.  Suggesting the Lords get together and choose Bran the cripple is not Martin being ahistorical. 

A cripple who can't have children, a cripple who is still likely to be under 15 by the end of the series, thus in need of a regent and a cripple from a different religion to the vast majority of Westeros is not going  to happen.

19 hours ago, DMC said:

 

A council demanding permanent power - which would be the idea in appointing a monarch not only without but that cannot have a successor - is very much in line with middle-age history.  Acting like this is some huge paradigm shift is either ignorant or disingenuous.

Dude, don't be that guy, making ad hominem attacks because others don't agree with you. We are allowed to disagree, no need to call people ignorant or disingenuous over it.

[martianmister]

Why does it matter that he can't have children, if we're talking about an elective monarchy? Doesn't that make him an even better choice?

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No one is forcing you to reply.

 I was just giving you the courtesy of telling you I'm going to cease replying on the matter.  Sorry for giving you such courtesy?

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Dude, don't be that guy, making ad hominem attacks because others don't agree with you. We are allowed to disagree, no need to call people ignorant or disingenuous over it.

First, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the definition of ad hominem if you think that's one of them.  That wasn't an attack on any person, it was an attack on a position.  If you disagree that Bran will be King, fine.  But don't tell me there's "no logic" to it, because there is.  That's what I was originally responding to.  And in this specific case, don't tell me it's anathema to the medieval backdrop Martin has developed and is somehow a violation of that precept by quoting one of his interviews.  You're the one that's being disparaging there, and doing so with an argument that's simply wrong.  Nothing annoys me more than the guy who's like "well, actually, that's historically inaccurate" when, no, actually, that's just because you have a vapid understanding of history and politics.

So, yes, I will continue to say that as long as people pose that their interpretations are somehow innately superior to others.  Particularly when you denigrate the opposition in such a douchy way like you do.