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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot


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10 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I don’t where these loads and loads of foreshadowing for her becoming queen in the books are. I agree she will have a more central role to play and can’t see her ruling the Vale but not the North, not in the books.

As for being Robb’s heir, she isn’t currently in the books. We know that Robb disinherited her in the books. Now could things change in future books, perhaps but as it currently stands she has no claim to the North based on Robb’s will, which was witnessed by many of the Northern lords.  

Robb disinheriting her - you're supposed to see it as wrong because her marriage to Tyrion was coerced and illegitimate. You're not supposed to agree that this character is unsuited to rule the place she desperately wants to return to.  

If you want to look at the foreshadowing just type in "queen" in A Search of Ice and Fire for her chapters. Right off the bat - her direwolf is called Lady but eats as delicately as a queen. LF calls it war of the 3 queens. She never becomes Joffrey's queen and yet everyone is giving her queenly advice and she's observing how power looks from the other side. Hmm... I wonder why.

 

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8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If you want to look at the foreshadowing just type in "queen" in A Search of Ice and Fire for her chapters. Right off the bat - her direwolf is called Lady but eats as delicately as a queen. LF calls it war of the 3 queens. She never becomes Joffrey's queen and yet everyone is giving her queenly advice and she's observing how power looks from the other side. Hmm... I wonder why.

 

I can find just as many clues to Arya being queen (if not more) — Arya’s wolf is named after a Queen after all and not just “Lady”. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to argue Arya will end up queen.

Edited by teej6
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6 minutes ago, divica said:

You can t have the books being completly diferent from the show and grrm saying it is a faithfull adaptation… It doesn t work both ways. And there is a lot of things in the show that we know will happen in the books… Like jon and danny meeting each other for example...

And I highly doubt a single character will have the credit of defeating the others. There will be several characters that will be seen as heroes of the long night… And having a war hero become king is exactly what grrm doesn t like about LotR. He wants to know how aragorn rules! Not that he is a good ruler because he is a hero... IF bran becomes king it won t be simply because he has powers...

My hope is that sansa ends as lady of the vale and jon as KitN with the new north being composed of wildlings, Giants, skagosi, clansmen, cragnonmen, iron born, bear islanders… Basically a bunch of savages that don t fit with Southern politics. I think it could fit with what happened in the show… I don t think sansa fits in a magical and savage north...

Dont Forget that he gave that interview before he saw the last season. I think it is safer to say that the first 7 seasons are similar to the books (he even seems to have most of winds written that should end somewhere in the beguining of season 7).

In regards to season 8... I agree there must be similarities to what he has planned. But a lot of what happens there just doesn t fit in the story… If he is really hell bent in ending the story that way we will either never see the end of the books or people will hate them… 

You think he gave an interview to 60 Minutes on the last season of the show and he had no idea what it consisted of?  I don't.  We're never going to see the ends of the books no matter what.  I have been saying now for years that he can't finish in 2 more books, and I don't believe he will get another book out after Winds.

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Just now, divica said:

You can t have the books being completly diferent from the show and grrm saying it is a faithfull adaptation… It doesn t work both ways. And there is a lot of things in the show that we know will happen in the books… Like jon and danny meeting each other for example...

And I highly doubt a single character will have the credit of defeating the others. There will be several characters that will be seen as heroes of the long night… And having a war hero become king is exactly what grrm doesn t like about LotR. He wants to know how aragorn rules! Not that he is a good ruler because he is a hero... IF bran becomes king it won t be simply because he has powers.

I said resemble, not be completely different. 

No, it doesn't fit thematically with the whole we must come together to deal with the extreme threats of ice and fire if it only needs one person. Bran isn't sufficient to defeat the Others, but he is necessary. Bran's power is knowledge, not shooting lasers from his eyes. Again, note that Bran was dressed in Renaissance-style clothing. Knowing how to use knowledge is what will make the difference. There's a lot of people out there who have knowledge but somehow can't turn that into results. 

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Quotes from GRRM about the how the show will be different from the [unwritten] final book;

--"I’ve been so slow with these books," Martin told Rolling Stone. "The major points of the ending will be things I told [Benioff and Weiss] five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added."

 

---And I’m writing.   Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is.   THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done.  I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.

How will it all end? I hear people asking.   The same ending as the show?  Different?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget.   They had six hours for this final season.   I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them.   And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one.   There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet.   And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…

Book or show, which will be the “real” ending?   It’s a silly question.   How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?

How about this?  I’ll write it.   You read it.  Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.

 

 

So yeah, he says that they made some of the characters have the same ending as what he had in mind 5 or 6 years ago. and that's all. Everyone on this thread who is falling for the ULTRA STUPIDITY of what D&D gave us---well I feel very sorry for you, and I am sorry that you have so little faith in GRRM. To even suggest that his masterpiece will end the same way those 2-bit hacks showed us on HBO is appalling.  But of course, all Dany-Haters will love the HBO ending (despite most of them complaining about how stupid the show is these past 8 years) and Dany-Fans will hate it. I am seeing a clear divided line on these HBO threads, with most book-forum Dany-Haters coming here to say they think this is how it will end. So the show is "stupid, plot-less, bad writing, ridiculous, larry carol, deadpans, Pomade Jesus", etc. right up until Dany starts killing innocents--then all of a sudden it's "Exactly accurate" and "this is the ending" well fucking LMAO to that. D&D are dumbass terrible writer/directors and if hating Dany makes you suddenly disagree with that that's on you. I prefer to be consistent.

 

Edit: and if you think that nothing could possibly change over the past 6 years then I will refer you back to GRRM's original 1993 outline for the books....... it has changed so much it would be impossible for anyone except him to keep up with it.

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn
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37 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He says the same thing he's always said, yes and no and then talks about secondary and tertiary characters.  His 60 Minutes interview where he actually got questioned was much more definitive, you can't really think that he would say GOT was more faithful than 97% of adaptations if they massively changed the ending including who ruled Westeros?  

The 60 minute interview was full of contradictions. And saying it's more faithful than 97% of adaptations isn't saying much. It could mean it's slightly more faithful, or that if you average all the seasons, season 1 being pretty close to the books, and then slowly and exponentially diverging, it still comes out better than most other shows/movies.

George said the main points will be similar, but then again, one main point was the resolution of the war with the White Walkers. Except the books don't have, and may not have, a Night King, or at least an ancient NK that is leading the troops, and Arya doing something critical towards ending this conflict may not happen. Not to mention that Beric's role was extended all the way to that episode, and the very reason for this is that he had to save Arya to allow her to destroy the big bad. But Beric is dead in the books, and Mel has yet to interact with Arya, nor does she know Beric exists.

Edited by Corvinus
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1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Quotes from GRRM about the how the show will be different from the [unwritten] final book;

--"I’ve been so slow with these books," Martin told Rolling Stone. "The major points of the ending will be things I told [Benioff and Weiss] five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added."

 

--“How will it all end? I hear people asking,” Martin, 70, wrote on his website, Not a Blog, on Monday. “The same ending as the show? Different?”

Martin answered his own question with, “Well… yes.”

However, after his answer, the author also backpedaled a bit, adding, “And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.”

 

---And I’m writing.   Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is.   THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done.  I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.

How will it all end? I hear people asking.   The same ending as the show?  Different?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget.   They had six hours for this final season.   I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them.   And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one.   There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet.   And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…

Book or show, which will be the “real” ending?   It’s a silly question.   How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?

How about this?  I’ll write it.   You read it.  Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.

 

 

So yeah, he says that they made some of the characters have the same ending as what he had in mind 5 or 6 years ago. and that's all. Everyone on this thread who is falling for the ULTRA STUPIDITY of what D&D gave us---well I feel very sorry for you, and I am sorry that you have so little faith in GRRM. To even suggest that his masterpiece will end the same way those 2-bit hacks showed us on HBO is appalling.  But of course, all Dany-Haters will love the HBO ending (despite most of them complaining about how stupid the show is these past 8 years) and Dany-Fans will hate it. I am seeing a clear divided line on these HBO threads, with most book-forum Dany-Haters coming here to say they think this is how it will end. So the show is "stupid, plot-less, bad writing, ridiculous, larry carol, deadpans, Pomade Jesus", etc. right up until Dany starts killing innocents--then all of a sudden it's "Exactly accurate" and "this is the ending" well fucking LMAO to that. D&D are dumbass terrible writer/directors and if hating Dany makes you suddenly disagree with that that's on you. I prefer to be consistent. 

 

The quality of writing has no bearing on accuracy either way. 

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

You think he gave an interview to 60 Minutes on the last season of the show and he had no idea what it consisted of?  I don't.  We're never going to see the ends of the books no matter what.  I have been saying now for years that he can't finish in 2 more books, and I don't believe he will get another book out after Winds.

He is the one who said several times that he hasn t seen the last season. He is the one that after the show ended started to do damage control saying his ending will have diferences and that winds will be released within the year...

And before you start saying he was only refering to minor characters… He has never expressed so clearly that the ending of the show and the books will be diferent as he did in his post. 

In regards to ending in 2 books… I have thought for several years that winds will be 2 volumes released at the same time. He had hundreds of pages from dance and feast included in the book! With nearly all the characters from the 2 previous books I have no idea how the story is suposed to advance if it doesn t ocupy 2 books…

And if winds are 2 books then he can finish it in a dream of Spring… Otherwise with the pace we have seen in the published chapters and the events that must happen he will need 10 books….

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Just now, Lollygag said:

The quality of writing has no bearing on accuracy either way. 

I think it does, they are the ones who wrote in the script that Jaime goes back to Cersei 3 different times after Riverrun. They also wrote Jaime going to Dorne to meet Bad Pussy. I think that's awful plot/script/writing whatever you want to call it, it was all pure nonsense that was100% invented by D&D.

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2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

The 60 minute interview was full of contradictions. And saying it's more faithful than 97% of adaptations isn't saying much. It could mean it's slightly more faithful, or that if you average all the seasons, season 1 being pretty close to the books, and then slowly and exponentially diverging, it still comes out better than most other shows/movies.

George said the main points will be similar, but then again, one main point was the resolution of the war with the White Walkers. Except the books don't have, and may not have, a Night King, or at least an ancient NK that is leading the troops, and Arya doing something critical towards ending this conflict may not happen. Not to mention that Beric's role was extended all the way to that episode, and the very reason for this is that he had to save Arya to allow her to destroy the big bad. But Beric is dead in the books.

Beric is a secondary character, who is already dead in the books.  The ending will be the same for the main characters.  Arya will leave Westeros.  Dany, yes, Dany fans, she will turn into a tyrant and die, Jon may not kill her or he might.  Jon will go back to the NW for a life of desolation.  Sansa will rule Winterfell and the North, Bran will be King, Tyrion will keep playing the GOT and the twins will die together.  The Others will be defeated, but I doubt Arya plays any role there whatsoever.  Rickon will die.  

Like I keep saying, people who don't like the ending for their favs are grasping at the straws that GRRM all too willingly provides as part of his equivocating, trollish persona....

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I don't like Bran becoming king but if that was what George planned for the ending I don't see it drastically changing. He's hardly going to mix it up now and put Stannis on the throne instead. 

 

Arya going west in the show was out of nowhere with zero build up which makes me think thats also how her story ends.

 

Sansa being QITN also makes sense in terms of her story but I wonder how she will get there with Winter closing in.

 

Tyrion being hand of the king is believable because someone has to have a typical ending. 

 

Dany going mad was so abrupt in the show it makes sense that it will happen in the books.

 

I can see all these things happening but with actual build up and execution. 

Edited by aFeastForDragons
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13 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Quotes from GRRM about the how the show will be different from the [unwritten] final book;

--"I’ve been so slow with these books," Martin told Rolling Stone. "The major points of the ending will be things I told [Benioff and Weiss] five or six years ago. But there may also be changes, and there’ll be a lot added."

 

---And I’m writing.   Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is.   THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done.  I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.

How will it all end? I hear people asking.   The same ending as the show?  Different?

Well… yes.  And no.  And yes.   And no.   And yes.   And no.   And yes.

I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget.   They had six hours for this final season.   I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them.   And of course the butterfly effect will be at work as well; those of you who follow this Not A Blog will know that I’ve been talking about that since season one.   There are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books… so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet.   And yes, there will be unicorns… of a sort…

Book or show, which will be the “real” ending?   It’s a silly question.   How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?

How about this?  I’ll write it.   You read it.  Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet.

 

 

So yeah, he says that they made some of the characters have the same ending as what he had in mind 5 or 6 years ago. and that's all. Everyone on this thread who is falling for the ULTRA STUPIDITY of what D&D gave us---well I feel very sorry for you, and I am sorry that you have so little faith in GRRM. To even suggest that his masterpiece will end the same way those 2-bit hacks showed us on HBO is appalling.  But of course, all Dany-Haters will love the HBO ending (despite most of them complaining about how stupid the show is these past 8 years) and Dany-Fans will hate it. I am seeing a clear divided line on these HBO threads, with most book-forum Dany-Haters coming here to say they think this is how it will end. So the show is "stupid, plot-less, bad writing, ridiculous, larry carol, deadpans, Pomade Jesus", etc. right up until Dany starts killing innocents--then all of a sudden it's "Exactly accurate" and "this is the ending" well fucking LMAO to that. D&D are dumbass terrible writer/directors and if hating Dany makes you suddenly disagree with that that's on you. I prefer to be consistent.

 

Edit: and if you think that nothing could possibly change over the past 6 years then I will refer you back to GRRM's original 1993 outline for the books....... it has changed so much it would be impossible for anyone except him to keep up with it.

The show can suck and still have been faithful to the ending he gave them, which is what the totality of everyone's statements in context indicates.  He has said that he's known the ending for the main characters for YEARS, which is the ending he gave the show, which they said they loved.  

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Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I think it does, they are the ones who wrote in the script that Jaime goes back to Cersei 3 different times after Riverrun. They also wrote Jaime going to Dorne to meet Bad Pussy. I think that's awful plot/script/writing whatever you want to call it, it was all pure nonsense that was100% invented by D&D.

If the ending is accurate to that character, it was poorly written. If the ending isn't accurate to that character and is something different, it was also poorly written.

As I can't think of a single character who has been handled well especially compared to the early seasons, if we use quality as a measure of judging accuracy, then 100% of the show is inaccurate to the ending of the book characters. 

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6 minutes ago, divica said:

He is the one who said several times that he hasn t seen the last season. He is the one that after the show ended started to do damage control saying his ending will have diferences and that winds will be released within the year...

And before you start saying he was only refering to minor characters… He has never expressed so clearly that the ending of the show and the books will be diferent as he did in his post. 

In regards to ending in 2 books… I have thought for several years that winds will be 2 volumes released at the same time. He had hundreds of pages from dance and feast included in the book! With nearly all the characters from the 2 previous books I have no idea how the story is suposed to advance if it doesn t ocupy 2 books…

And if winds are 2 books then he can finish it in a dream of Spring… Otherwise with the pace we have seen in the published chapters and the events that must happen he will need 10 books….

Except he never said that.  He said the same things he has been saying for years including his awful Scarlett O'Hara story.

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25 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I can find just as many clues to Arya being queen (if not more) — Arya’s wolf is named after a Queen after all and not just “Lady”. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to argue Arya will end up queen.

Well, Nymeria resisted a Targaryen conqueror and sailed to another continent, so that's probably the foreshadowing for her with her direwolf, and Lady signals her desire to be a lady-in-a-song. With Jon choosing Sansa's life in the end this is very Aemon/Naerys. 

The show and books align for Sansa taking on a bigger role in the North. We've been over this in other threads. I told you LF is already planning on taking her there and setting her up as QitN. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake
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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Beric is a secondary character, who is already dead in the books.  The ending will be the same for the main characters.  Arya will leave Westeros.  Dany, yes, Dany fans, she will turn into a tyrant and die, Jon may not kill her or he might.  Jon will go back to the NW for a life of desolation.  Sansa will rule Winterfell and the North, Bran will be King, Tyrion will keep playing the GOT and the twins will die together.  The Others will be defeated, but I doubt Arya plays any role there whatsoever.  Rickon will die.  

Like I keep saying, people who don't like the ending for their favs are grasping at the straws that GRRM all too willingly provides as part of his equivocating, trollish persona....

Personally I kind of hate most of those endings wether I like the character or not. And I really hate the tragedy understones in danny and jon's endings.

 

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4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Well, Nymeria resisted a Targaryen conqueror so that's probably the foreshadowing for her with her direwolf, and Lady signals her desire to be a lady-in-a-song. With Jon choosing Sansa's life in the end this is very Aemon/Naerys. 

The show and books align for Sansa taking on a bigger role in the North. We've been over this in other threads. I told you LF is already planning on taking her there and setting her up as QitN. 

Which Nymeria did this?

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Except he never said that.  He said the same things he has been saying for years including his awful Scarlett O'Hara story.

He said that there will be diferences. He didn t say it will be only about secondary characters… The fact that he then talks about book only characters was to give exemples without clearly stating that x character will have a diferent fate in the book and show.

And you really think that people's reactions to this ending won t affect him? that when writting he won t end up making changes because he can t make certain things make sense? 

I think we just have to look at the 5 year gap to see that not everything grrm plans ends up happening. 

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5 minutes ago, divica said:

Personally I kind of hate most of those endings wether I like the character or not. And I really hate the tragedy understones in danny and jon's endings.

 

Sure, I hate the endings for everyone as well, except for Dany, because this is actually a good and tragic ending for her, because it was never very believable that the woman who has wanted the IT since the first book....was going to get the IT in the end and be happy about it.  GRRM always punishes his characters.  It's a very tragic ending, and I suspect that both Arya and Jon especially will be much more tragic feeling than the show, which tried to spin that as happy.  Me, personally, I think Sansa should die, but I gave up on that idea a long time ago and it looks like she will get the biggest reward next to Tyrion. 

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

He said that there will be diferences. He didn t say it will be only about secondary characters… The fact that he then talks about book only characters was to give exemples without clearly stating that x character will have a diferent fate in the book and show.

And you really think that people's reactions to this ending won t affect him? that when writting he won t end up making changes because he can t make certain things make sense? 

I think we just have to look at the 5 year gap to see that not everything grrm plans ends up happening. 

He will never end it, so all this discussion is really irrelevant, he will never finish in two more books and he will never get another book out after Winds of Winter.  The 5 year gap is the reason the whole thing went off the rails in the first place and is still off the rails.  Bran sure as hell cannot be King at 12 years old, so he is going to have to progress the story 5 years to make it believable. 

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