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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot


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30 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Yes, that's what I'm starting to believe now. Obviously they are very uncomfortable with this situation, hence the lack of dialogue, the lousy attempts at humour, etc.

I don t think so. They clearly showed how they think a democratic situation was stupid. The council ruling is basically democracy…

For me the great problem with trying to link what happens in the show with what happens in the books is that the 8th season doesn t fit with the story they told in the seventh season. IT feels like 2 diferent stories. Besides the fact that some of the endings just don t make sense...

 

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https://www.vulture.com/2019/05/game-of-throness-king-bran-george-rr-martin-books.html

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... if you’re looking to blame that choice on show writers David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, you’ll be mistaken. According to Bran himself, actor Isaac Hempstead Wright, the idea for King Bran came straight from author George R.R. Martin. “David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] told me there were two things George R.R. Martin had planned for Bran,” he said in an HBO behind-the-scenes interview. “And that was the Hodor revelation, and that he would be king. So that’s pretty special to be directly involved in something that is part of George’s vision. It was a really nice way to wrap it up.”

 

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29 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Why do I think the show made Bran King? because they're idiots--same reason they made Arya kill the King White Walker--shock and a BIG STUPID TWIST that doesn't fit with the plot.

One of the strangest things in the show is how it basically is a targ tragedy. It isn t sweet, it is complelty bitter! I don t think anyone that likes jon, danny or that branch of the story will like it… The path to get to that situation would need to be very diferent...

And then everybody else has a fairy tale ending? No compromises? Nobody has arranged marriages? Everybody alive is simply good and acepts whatever is done is for the greater good?

And I can t even imagine how much grrm would need to write about bran in order for him to learn how to rule, for us to understand his tax policies, for the south to accept him, for the faith of the seven to be ok with him… 

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Just now, Nowy Tends said:

Not at all. It's an oligarchy based on lordship. Tobho Mott, blacksmith in KL or Hotpie, baker in the Riverlands, will never be consulted or represented.

But a group of people will decide together the fate of the kingdom. It is a kind of democracy...

And it would lead to the kingdoms separating… 

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3 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

But I think this is about life and humanity. You could say ASOIAF is realistic in depicting the unpredictability of life and the strengths and weaknesses of humanity and its struggles.  The futility of the pursuit of power, and the hubris of entitlement. The fallacy of nobility and honor, and the power of sacrifice and the price sacrifice brings.

GRRM: "the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about

Also, consider the magic, gods and supernatural thing as the perfect stressor. Planetos is an ant farm, and a huge rock (comet, wtv) just dropped smack on the middle.

Now you have an unprecedented occurrence, hells, all they have are faded legends from the Age of Heroes leftover in nursery rhymes, horror tales and words that for most have lost meaning. Legends of powers that, to quote from Supernatural, could mash them like peas.

Even if the endgame is a Lotr like resolution of only minor magics remain? It's about the journey, not the destination. What matters, what makes the story worthwhile, are the characters' decisions, feelings in the face of the unimaginable.

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23 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah, I still disagree. The rest of Bran's POV chapters - almost in their entirety - being images and prophesies? How does he even interact? 

And unless GRRM distances himself from when he said the endings were going to be very close and that was a very hard statement from him, I'm sticking with that. He's not king in that cave. 

I don't believe he will be king. Maybe something more like a god. Something with a lot of influence anyway. Being physically located in a cave doesn't mean he can't interact.

All other greenseers exist because they melted their physical form with the trees. I feel Bran has the choice (or it is already too late), either become what he was expected to be, and have the role he has to be. Or staying a cripple, and not being of much more help. His body is damaged, meaning he is invited to leave it. In GRRM's world, everything has a price. I feel Bran's, to get immortality and a purpose (Valar dohaeris) is not expensive.

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3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

It strikes me that an easier and more popular solution for the show would have been to have the Great Council as a new form of government....so since they didn't do this easier and more popular solution, I can only believe it was because Bran being king is a book endpoint,

I don't think the Great Council or democracy is GRRM's endpoint. There has been some GC before, and some places have voting system. But they don't work much better, don't chose wise rulers (corruption, wrong choices, trickery...).

Choosing the king on the battlefield, or by blood right has plenty of disastrous examples in Westeros history.

6 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

And the final lesson we are to take at the end is that humanity needs a God Emperor to steer us in the right direction?

I think so. It was the case before the first LN, according to the Yi-Ti legends. Would the 2nd LN fix what was left broken after the 1st? Maybe. But Bran is not TPTWP (not of Rhaella and Aerys line). IMO, not a king but a humble "shield that guards the realms of men".

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16 minutes ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

So grrm thinks the endings are practically the same and the show was 97% faithful to his books? Good grief this series was a waste of time. Feel sorry for anyone who was following since 1996. I hope the prequels don't do very well so hbo and grrm lose out after this shitshow.

Indeed. Such a fatalistic ending if you think about it. I dont know, the idea of a God King worked in Dune since it was a theme right from the start of the series. But in ASOIAF it just doesn't click considering what GRRM spouted all these years about his work.

Meh, the biggest dissapointment in terms of books I ever read. So much potential, so little payoff.

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35 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

 

I think so. It was the case before the first LN, according to the Yi-Ti legends. Would the 2nd LN fix what was left broken after the 1st? Maybe. But Bran is not TPTWP (not of Rhaella and Aerys line). IMO, not a king but a humble "shield that guards the realms of men".

But the shield bit doesn't apply to Bran in the books, though. Anyway, if you reduce everything to the basics, we have 2 themes: the supernatural one and the ordinary one. They intertwined along the series but the solutions for these can't stand on 1person since I think that each theme requires a different skill set. Bran has a role in the supernatural theme, not the ordinary one. It's like Jesus dying for the sins of mankind, comes back to life and ends up king, pops a few kids and dies at a respectable age. I mean, what? 

I'm not very good at explaining myself, sorry. 

 

Edited by Ruki88
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5 minutes ago, Ruki88 said:

Indeed. Such a fatalistic ending if you think about it. I dont know, the idea of a God King worked in Dune since it was a theme right from the start of the series. But in ASOIAF it just doesn't click considering what GRRM spouted all these years about his work.

Meh, the biggest dissapointment in terms of books I ever read. So much potential, so little payoff.

How is this possibly shocking though? Beings like that are all over GRRM's non- aSoIaF work. He has a lot of all seeing, all knowing or hive-minded beings in his stories. I was hoping aSoIaF would not go that route too because he's made his point about those beings plenty of times now but it is what it is I guess if this is the endgame.

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3 hours ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

So grrm thinks the endings are practically the same and the show was 97% faithful to his books? Good grief this series was a waste of time. Feel sorry for anyone who was following since 1996. I hope the prequels don't do very well so hbo and grrm lose out after this shitshow.

The last two books have not been published yet, it is far too  early to call reading them a waste of time. I personally see Bran becoming King as unrealistic in the setting that GRRM has established in the previous five books and all the accompanying material but I don't know how it happens (or even if it does).  

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3 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

But the shield bit doesn't apply to Bran in the books, though. Anyway, if you reduce everything to the basics, we have 2 themes: the supernatural one and the ordinary one. They intertwined along the series but the solutions for these can't stand on 1person since I think that each theme requires a different skill set. Bran has a role in the supernatural theme, not the ordinary one. It's like Jesus dying for the sins of mankind, comes back to life and ends up king, pops a few kids and dies at a respectable age. I mean, what?

It is Jon (again) who comes back to life, indeed like Jesus. Quite supernatural too. Bran is the connection with the Old Gods and the Others I suppose. Both are strongly related to the Old Gods. Jon is the Last Hero and Bran the CotF he sought to get a peace with the Others.

33 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

It could be a part of a new pact to get the WW's to go back North. 

Yes, I believe so. Jon or Bran will get the power to impose a peace in the realms of men, because they will be what prevent the Others to return and finish the job. Maybe they are the Shield against the return of the Others.

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4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It is Jon (again) who comes back to life, indeed like Jesus. Quite supernatural too. Bran is the connection with the Old Gods and the Others I suppose. Both are strongly related to the Old Gods. Jon is the Last Hero and Bran the CotF he sought to get a peace with the Others.

Jon is Azor Ahai, who plunged his blade first into water, then into the heart of a lion, then into the heart of his beloved. He is the shield that guards the realms of men, and he himself is Lightbringer the sword in the darkness. He is from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, the prince who was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.

Bran is the mystical Last Hero of Old Nan's fairytales, who lost his companions one by one and even his dog but finally found the Children, who helped him.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood
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4 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Jon is Azor Ahai, who plunged his blade first into water, then into the heart of a lion, then into the heart of his beloved. He is the shield that guards the realms of men, and he himself is Lightbringer the sword in the darkness. He is from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, the prince who was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.

Bran is the mystical Last Hero of Old Nan's fairytales, who lost his companions one by one and even his dog but finally found the Children, who helped him.

Bran traveling north and seeking the CotF rather matches the Last Hero. But the CotF are nearly extinct and Bran seems more the provider of help, their successor, than the seeker. Jon doesn't match much of Azor Ahai. Except for "arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle". Agreed, he killed Daenerys (in D&D adaptation). But it was after the battle. As if she was the enemy, not the beloved. She didn't exactly "bare her breast" either. The books have Val. He has learned the Free Folks ways, about freedom of choosing your leader. I know many expected it, but I don't see how he could love such a woman.

Jon and Bran are components of the Long Night savior, hero, How much they will match the legends, how much of these legends is accurate, IDK.

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On Bran being just supernatural - he's a font of history, including the history of man. A thousand eyes and one. The old gods are the histories and memories of those who have gone before and all that was witnessed through the trees. They're not gods in the traditional sense of the word. 

 

ADWD Bran III

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

Bran did not understand, so he asked the Reeds. "Do you like to read books, Bran?" Jojen asked him.

"Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid."

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

 

 

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