Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[Lollygag]

14 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't believe he will be king. Maybe something more like a god. Something with a lot of influence anyway. Being physically located in a cave doesn't mean he can't interact.

All other greenseers exist because they melted their physical form with the trees. I feel Bran has the choice (or it is already too late), either become what he was expected to be, and have the role he has to be. Or staying a cripple, and not being of much more help. His body is damaged, meaning he is invited to leave it. In GRRM's world, everything has a price. I feel Bran's, to get immortality and a purpose (Valar dohaeris) is not expensive.

I don't think we can assume what's required here because there's too little info. 

In the quote in the post above, greenseers are marked with red or green eyes and a sickly constitution. This fits BR and he didn't merge with the trees until he was 77 or so, yet it really sounds like he was doing greenseer stuff way before that with skinchanging being an important component of that. 

But BR says that he's almost desperate for Bran as they're about out of time, but Bran has Tully blue eyes, and his weak constitution was created by an accident, not by birth. In short, it sounds like Bran may be Frankensteined into the position somehow and we don't know why or what that entails. The Stark line seems important though, guessing for the skinchanging trait. But like BR before he was 77, like the bizarro weirwoods in Qarth and the shade of the evening, the connection to the trees may not be required permanently until one is nearer to natural death. 

[Corvinus85]

16 hours ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

So grrm thinks the endings are practically the same and the show was 97% faithful to his books? Good grief this series was a waste of time. Feel sorry for anyone who was following since 1996. I hope the prequels don't do very well so hbo and grrm lose out after this shitshow.

He said the show has been more faithful than 97% other adaptations, a completely different statement than saying the show was very faithful to his books, which it wasn't since several seasons. And again, as it has been noted, he claims the main points would be similar, but that's it. And he might something different half a year from now.

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don't think we can assume what's required here because there's too little info. 

In the quote in the post above, greenseers are marked with red or green eyes and a sickly constitution. This fits BR and he didn't merge with the trees until he was 77 or so, yet it really sounds like he was doing greenseer stuff way before that with skinchanging being an important component of that. 

But BR says that he's almost desperate for Bran as they're about out of time, but Bran has Tully blue eyes, and his weak constitution was created by an accident, not by birth. In short, it sounds like Bran may be Frankensteined into the position somehow and we don't know why or what that entails. The Stark line seems important though, guessing for the skinchanging trait. But like BR before he was 77, like the bizarro weirwoods in Qarth and the shade of the evening, the connection to the trees may not be required permanently until one is nearer to natural death. 

OK, we don't know yet what a GS can do exactly, with or without the tree, in or out of the cave. BR knew and did things while he was in KL, but I doubt it was to compare with what a greenseer can do.

OK, BR had a full life before entering the cave, not Bran. But IMO Bran's fall was not an accident. As he said in the show, to have him where he had to be. It was necessary for his metamorphose. His body is broken, of no use to him now. He is invited to leave it. And I don't think the cave is just a place of training. It's more than that. It seems the place of the Old Gods. Again, things have a price. You can't have something of value without giving something for it.

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

OK, we don't know yet what a GS can do exactly, with or without the tree, in or out of the cave. BR knew and did things while he was in KL, but I doubt it was to compare with what a greenseer can do.

OK, BR had a full life before entering the cave, not Bran. But IMO Bran's fall was not an accident. As he said in the show, to have him where he had to be. It was necessary for his metamorphose. His body is broken, of no use to him now. He is invited to leave it. And I don't think the cave is just a place of training. It's more than that. It seems the place of the Old Gods. Again, things have a price. You can't have something of value without giving something for it. 

Only death (or great sacrifice) can pay for life (or exceptional power over life and death). But the cave isn't the only possible payment. Bran dreamed of being a knight, he loved climbing and adventure, and Ned said he'll never sleep with a woman or be able to father children. The payment's already been made without him having to be stuck in the cave. As with the NW, the KG, Dany getting dragons, Maesters, MMR's lack of kids and the great price she said she paid, the CotF, the inability to have or raise one's own children is often the price for such. 

It's something which is very much a part of rl myth as super heroes are never told of having families and monsters with their supernatural abilities and exceptional lifespans are also unable to procreate or manage families with the obligations that come with their abilities. 

And everywhere there's a weirwood you find a place of the old gods. Ned prayed in the godswood in KL and it didn't even have a weirwood. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Lollygag

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

23 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Only death (or great sacrifice) can pay for life (or exceptional power over life and death). But the cave isn't the only possible payment. Bran dreamed of being a knight, he loved climbing and adventure, and Ned said he'll never sleep with a woman or be able to father children

Bran won’t even be Bran anymore, imo.

Loss of identity is a death of sorts. Loss of humanity, even. Valar morghulis.

And in trade his will be a life of service, as the 3er, however long it lasts. Valar dohaeris.

I think he pays dearly enough indeed.

[BalerionTheCat]

24 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Bran won’t even be Bran anymore, imo.

Loss of identity is a death of sorts. Loss of humanity, even. Valar morghulis.

And in trade his will be a life of service, as the 3er, however long it lasts. Valar dohaeris.

I think he pays dearly enough indeed.

Yes, in the cave. His identity mingled with the other greenseers. But not before a very long time.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

34 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes, in the cave. His identity mingled with the other greenseers. But not before a very long time.

Even in the show he said he wasn't Bran anymore, so even if/when he leaves? He won't be Ned Stark's son who liked to climb, who dreamed of being a knight.

Kill the boy and make way for the man.

The boy dreamed, the man serves.

[BalerionTheCat]

27 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Even in the show he said he wasn't Bran anymore, so even if/when he leaves? He won't be Ned Stark's son who liked to climb, who dreamed of being a knight.

Kill the boy and make way for the man.

The boy dreamed, the man serves.

There are speculations like this one: Why did Bran become king?  That Bran E3R manipulated events so he became king. Very clever, depressing.

I don't think BR design was so dark, wanting to be king like everyone else. But I could imagine they manipulated people like dumb sheep, to lead them where they should be. But even if so, IMO they would remain behind the scene. With a more charismatic person at the front. A leader, a shepherd, but not a king. They too often forget they are to serve, not to be slave masters.

 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

11 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

There are speculations like this one: Why did Bran become king?  That Bran E3R manipulated events so he became king. Very clever, depressing.

I don't think BR design was so dark, wanting to be king like everyone else. But I could imagine they manipulated people like dumb sheep, to lead them where they should be. But even if so, IMO they would remain behind the scene. With a more charismatic person at the front. A leader, a shepherd, but not a king. They too often forget they are to serve, not to be slave masters.

 

I think we're meant to look at it as a 'fixed universe' thing? It was always going to happen.

'The ink is dry."

Everyone who tried to mess with prophecy only made sure it actually happened due to their interference in trying to stop it.

Remember the witch who killed Daenerys' baby in her womb to stop the 'Stallion who mounts the world' and the tragedies to follow?

She made it possible for Daenerys to have dragons.

And if the 3ER acts like in the council scene? He'll take care of higher matters, the council addresses the state. 

[Ser Hedge]

On 5/31/2019 at 4:38 PM, Bernie Mac said:

It is possible that Bran's storyline is much, much bigger in the TWOW, with its own large cast of characters and events separate from the show and the producers did not have the time or budget to properly film it.

Yeah, I suppose it will have to be if we are to get anything similar to the show ending.

FDR with his fireside radio chats.

JFK charming his way into living rooms with the new TV debates.

Bran's face on every Weirwood across Westeros talking to people  How can he not become president?

Eh, what about those places in Westeros that don't have Weirwoodtvnet you say?

They got torched by Dany. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Ser Hedge

[kissdbyfire]

I don’t see Bran’s arc in the novels having that many similarities w/ his show arc. In a way, some are giving David and Dan way too much credit IMO.

They ruined Bran - DUH!

The show doesn’t really deal w/ the magical/mystical/fantasy side of the story. David and Dan don’t care for it, or can’t handle it; probably a combination of both. 

So everything is left kind of vague and open-ended, in an attempt to make it look smart, or deep, and leave people debating and speculating on “what does it mean?”. But there’s nothing there, it means fuck all, it’s just an empty shell of a story. The only aspects the show runners seem to enjoy/care about is the power/money side of the story. Small wonder they love the Lannisters so much (except dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers Jaime). And that’s what happened to Bran’s story... They forgot the character for as long as they could, and then came up w/ this rubbish at the end, because they had no clue what to do. And dealt w/ it in a way that maybe it was all Bran’s plan all along, to grab power and become king. 

[teej6]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t see Bran’s arc in the novels having that many similarities w/ his show arc. In a way, some are giving David and Dan way too much credit IMO.

They ruined Bran - DUH!

The show doesn’t really deal w/ the magical/mystical/fantasy side of the story. David and Dan don’t care for it, or can’t handle it; probably a combination of both. 

So everything is left kind of vague and open-ended, in an attempt to make it look smart, or deep, and leave people debating and speculating on “what does it mean?”. But there’s nothing there, it means fuck all, it’s just an empty shell of a story. The only aspects the show runners seem to enjoy/care about is the power/money side of the story. Small wonder they love the Lannisters so much (except dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers Jaime). And that’s what happened to Bran’s story... They forgot the character for as long as they could, and then came up w/ this rubbish at the end, because they had no clue what to do. And dealt w/ it in a way that maybe it was all Bran’s plan all along, to grab power and become king. 

“Maybe” being the key word in this sentence. The dimwits thought they were creating suspense and intrigue by giving two lines to Bran in the finale which vaguely alludes to him having had known/planned things. Well I guess they succeeded somewhat judging from all the fan theories that ensued, nevermind that D&D did not bother to explain Bran’s powers/abilities and only had him come back from a one season hiatus to spout ridiculous one-liners and say he’s not Brandon Stark anymore, and zone out like he was high or something.  

If you theorize, based on the show, that Bran can see the future and planned the eventual outcome, then you’ll have to also assume that Bran is either evil or indifferent to human suffering. He either manipulated events that led to the death of a million people or he was indifferent to their deaths and did not try and prevent it. Either way he’s a terrible person and not fit to rule. And let’s not forget kinslaying universally reviled Tyrion’s 5 minute speech that convinced rulers of kingdoms that have always wanted their independence that Bran was the best person to rule Westeros because he had the best story. I wonder how Bran managed that? Did he warg Tyrion and the rest of the council? How was wise and omniscient Bran so sure of this outcome? So does this mean that not only can Bran see the future but he can have people act the way he wants them to? Up until that point Bran hadn’t interacted with the so called Prince of Dorne. How was he sure that this unnamed prince would be convinced by Tyrion’s ridiculous argument? Trying to understand and make sense of this travesty is a pointless exercise. There are so many unanswered questions, and the assumptions and suspension of disbelief one has to make for D&D’s story to make sense is astounding. It’s always good to leave some things to the readers/viewers imagination, but I doubt that was D&D’s intent when they wrote the final season — subtlety is not part of their writing style, but large amounts of exposition definitely is. In regards to Bran especially, they had no clue how to develop his character or explain his power or the magic that governs it and that’s the reason why Bran the Broken makes no sense.

In the books, if GRRM takes the King Bran route, I do hope he’ll tie things together in a way that Bran being the God Emperor makes sense. To me, King Bran can only make sense if Bran is the recognized saviour of humanity and his powers become public knowledge. In this case, a Grand Council that convenes after several years of winter and desolation could elect an older Bran as King. Or else, another King/Queen who recognizes Bran’s powers appoints Bran his/her successor. I remember GRRM stating as recently as last year that several people will take the throne before the end, so perhaps Bran will take the throne because he is named another’s heir. If GRRM ends up showing an 11-year old Bran taking the crown through subterfuge and manipulation and in the process allowing thousands to die, I’ll probably trash every book I have of his. That would truly be the most meaningless and nihilistic ending. 

[kissdbyfire]

40 minutes ago, teej6 said:

“Maybe” being the key word in this sentence. The dimwits thought they were creating suspense and intrigue by giving two lines to Bran in the finale which vaguely alludes to him having had known/planned things. Well I guess they succeeded somewhat judging from all the fan theories that ensued, nevermind that D&D did not bother to explain Bran’s powers/abilities and only had him come back from a one season hiatus to spout ridiculous one-liners and say he’s not Brandon Stark anymore, and zone out like he was high or something.  

“Maybe” is definitely the key word. And I mean it as in, David and Dan left it vague and open-ended hoping that maybe viewers would think it’s a cool twist, or at least something that leaves it as possible twist. It isn’t, though. It’s nothing but cheap sleight of hand, a little trick to try and hide the fact that there’s no substance to any of it. 

40 minutes ago, teej6 said:

If you theorize, based on the show, that Bran can see the future and planned the eventual outcome, then you’ll have to also assume that Bran is either evil or indifferent to human suffering. He either manipulated events that led to the death of a million people or he was indifferent to their deaths and did not try and prevent it. Either way he’s a terrible person and not fit to rule. And let’s not forget kinslaying universally reviled Tyrion’s 5 minute speech that convinced rulers of kingdoms that have always wanted their independence that Bran was the best person to rule Westeros because he had the best story. I wonder how Bran managed that? Did he warg Tyrion and the rest of the council? How was wise and omniscient Bran so sure of this outcome? So does this mean that not only can Bran see the future but he can have people act the way he wants them to? Up until that point Bran hadn’t interacted with the so called Prince of Dorne. How was he sure that this unnamed prince would be convinced by Tyrion’s ridiculous argument? Trying to understand and make sense of this travesty is a pointless exercise. There are so many unanswered questions, and the assumptions and suspension of disbelief one has to make for D&D’s story to make sense is astounding. It’s always good to leave some things to the readers/viewers imagination, but I doubt that was D&D’s intent when they wrote the final season — subtlety is not part of their writing style, but large amounts of exposition definitely is. In regards to Bran especially, they had no clue how to develop his character or explain his power or the magic that governs it and that’s the reason why Bran the Broken makes no sense.

Yup, it’s a complete hack job, start to finish. 

40 minutes ago, teej6 said:

In the books, if GRRM takes the King Bran route, I do hope he’ll tie things together in a way that Bran being the God Emperor makes sense.

If this is really Martin’s endgame for Bran, I am sure he will get there very differently and in a way that makes sense. I still find it unlikely tbh. But sure, we still have lots and lots of story ahead of us, so, for now, I’ll stick to possible but certainty not a sure thing. 

40 minutes ago, teej6 said:

To me, King Bran can only make sense if Bran is the recognized saviour of humanity and his powers become public knowledge. In this case, a Grand Council that convenes after several years of winter and desolation could elect an older Bran as King. Or else, another King/Queen who recognizes Bran’s powers appoints Bran his/her successor. I remember GRRM stating as recently as last year that several people will take the throne before the end, so perhaps Bran will take the throne because he is named another’s heir. If GRRM ends up showing an 11-year old Bran taking the crown through subterfuge and manipulation and in the process allowing thousands to die, I’ll probably trash every book I have of his. That would truly be the most meaningless and nihilistic ending. 

I am sure that won’t happen. There’s loads of theories about how Bran is evil, the heart trees are evil, BR is evil, the CotF are evil, etc. Nope, ain’t gonna happen. And I can’t wait to see the general meltdown when Martin finally spells it all out.

 

[DMC]

15 hours ago, Corvinus said:

He said the show has been more faithful than 97% other adaptations, a completely different statement than saying the show was very faithful to his books, which it wasn't since several seasons. And again, as it has been noted, he claims the main points would be similar, but that's it. And he might something different half a year from now.

I honestly don't know where this 97% figure is coming from - haven't read everything on this thread.  But if he's saying it's that much more faithful, then yeah, I think it's fair to interpret that as him saying it's pretty damn faithful to the books.  I mean, I've never given a 97 grade to a student and been like "well, I think you suck and totally don't get the material, but here."

9 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't think BR design was so dark, wanting to be king like everyone else.

I have no conjecture on how it will play in the books, other than it will certainly be better.  But it's entirely possible Bran knows he's eventually going to become king, yet simply understands that he can't prevent the travesties necessary for that possibility.  He may be a god, but he's not God.  I agree the way the show depicted it makes him look like, said this before, a lousy coldhearted bastard.  As Connie tells Michael Corleone.  But it could easily be written otherwise.

Anyway, I love how there's a link posted a page back about IHW affirming it was Martin's idea, and y'all are still like "no, he's wrong!"  LOL.  Da Nile isn't just a river in Egypt.

[CrypticWeirwood]

One thing I expect to see in the books based on what happened in the show is that despite having been initially pitched as a generational saga, virtually no one is going to die of old age.

Only a single character out of the show's nearly fifty main cast died of old age, so I'm not expecting many more to do so in the books.

Seems odd for a generational saga.

[Ruki88]

I have a question though. As we know, this series has been analyzed and scrutinised by fans for years and years. A lot of theories have been born based on the clues and foreshadowings added along the text. Is there a theory out there that guessed Bran will end up king? Before we knew the ending of the show, I mean, not after. 

 

[BalerionTheCat]

6 hours ago, DMC said:

Anyway, I love how there's a link posted a page back about IHW affirming it was Martin's idea, and y'all are still like "no, he's wrong!"  LOL.  Da Nile isn't just a river in Egypt.

D&D made a promise not tell what the differences are.

Quote

"So one thing we've talked to George about is that we're not going to tell people what the differences are, so when those books come out people can experience them fresh."

So now, they would tell, Bran is end king at KL, is from GRRM? One of the 2 (or both) is a lie. But did you see it in D&D own words? Or could it be some interpretation by IHW of something ambiguous D&D told him?

Anyway, I don't think they would break this promise, less than 2 weeks after the show ended. Always telling things are from GRRM is like not telling which one is.

Besides, I have more confidence in GRRM writing (so far not disappointed), than in D&D telling (did you read how many are complaining?) It is not D&D who will ruin my hopes.

Edited June 2, 2019 by BalerionTheCat

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, DMC said:

Da Nile isn't just a river in Egypt.

Love it!

As to what IHS said, well, I totally believe David and Dan told him that.

Now, whereas Martin told David and Dan exactly what they said he did when they had their chat w/ IHS... of that I’m significantly less sure.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

5 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

I have a question though. As we know, this series has been analyzed and scrutinised by fans for years and years. A lot of theories have been born based on the clues and foreshadowings added along the text. Is there a theory out there that guessed Bran will end up king? Before we knew the ending of the show, I mean, not after. 

 

There has been "Bran is evil" speculations. Based IIRC on the fact that Bran was using Hodor's body, without real need, while Hodor was obviously reluctant to it. And Bran not caring. As other characters slipping from "good" or "neutral" to "evil" (Daenerys, Arya, Stannis...) And the assumption that NR and the CotF were at the Others' service.

But something about Bran king of the 7K? I suppose, about everything has been speculated at some point. But how common was it? IDK

[Nowy Tends]

6 hours ago, Ruki88 said:

 Is there a theory out there that guessed Bran will end up king? Before we knew the ending of the show, I mean, not after. 

To my knowledge, no. But, as BalerionTheCat wrote, Bran is Evil speculations, and things around "Bran is The Main Power", etc.

Undoubtedly there are people who have long known or guessed that Bran is the most important character, and that he was coming in masked.