Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[Ruki88]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

There has been "Bran is evil" speculations. Based IIRC on the fact that Bran was using Hodor's body, without real need, while Hodor was obviously reluctant to it. And Bran not caring. As other characters slipping from "good" or "neutral" to "evil" (Daenerys, Arya, Stannis...) And the assumption that NR and the CotF were at the Others' service.

But something about Bran king of the 7K? I suppose, about everything has been speculated at some point. But how common was it? IDK

Hmmm, isn't it a bit suspicious that after all this time the clues that elude to this ending are so scarce? After all this time of careful scrutiny? It looks a little like "subverting expectation" from GRRM for my liking. I know ppl like to think that the author is a literary genius but as I said in previous posts, I am of the opinion that the show and especially the long time that passed between the books inflated the sense that the quality of the books is higher than it actually is. We got into the hype train and never got off. It took most ppl to end up at s8 in the show to realize that what they're watching is not the same as what they loved in the first 4 seasons. Most ppl made excuses for s5,6,7 as ppl tend to do when they love something. No shade thrown here as I'm guilty of it myself; not for this particular series but yeah...It happens.

Let's be honest, the enthusiasm for the books was kept alive by ppl who would discuss endlessly on how this could end - that was half the fun. And now we know. And it's not good. It feels like ppl are in damage control mode. Because otherwise it would mean that all these yrs devoded to something might've been...well, undeserved. I know, I know, the journey is what matters but in this case the ending does too. I would say it matters very, very much. 

Probably GRRM had this ending in mind but in my opinion, what this series ended up to be is way, way different than what it  was at the beginning. He can't fit this ending to what he has now, not without tearing down most of what he built in 5 books. 

You have to follow where the evidence takes you. Right now it feels like ppl are twisting the evidence to fit the ending. I was waiting for threads on how Bran is actually the best option and boy, I was not dissapointed.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Ruki88

[Ser Hedge]

8 hours ago, DMC said:

Da Nile isn't just a river in Egypt.

You got me there

 

Was there an Irish or Gaelic Scot minor House called Nial(l) who adopted the Norman style de Nial(l) then?

House words: "We ain't listening to the likes of yer, so ye can sod off"

8 hours ago, DMC said:

I've never given a 97 grade to a student and been like "well, I think you suck and totally don't get the material, but here."

For a moment I read that without the "never" and went "where were you when I was in University" 

[Ruki88]

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

To my knowledge, no. But, as BalerionTheCat wrote, Bran is Evil speculations, and things around "Bran is The Main Power", etc.

Undoubtedly there are people who have long known or guessed that Bran is the most important character, and that he was coming in masked. 

You know, the evil Bran theory was such a delight and would've loved to see it in the books. But that wasn't how Bran was presented in the show - sure, ppl speculate that he manipulated everyone so he could get his hands on the crown. But that wasn't because D&D wrote it that way. It was just plain bad writing. Here Bran is presented as this super awesome, best guy, good chump who is the creme de la creme. That's a far cry from evil Bran.

Also, where is the bittersweet ending in evil Bran winning? When even the books are poor in clues what does that say about the ending? Plot twist much? What about our favorite catch phrase: subverting expectations?

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

7 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

One thing I expect to see in the books based on what happened in the show is that despite having been initially pitched as a generational saga, virtually no one is going to die of old age.

Only a single character out of the show's nearly fifty main cast died of old age, so I'm not expecting many more to do so in the books.

Seems odd for a generational saga.

Maybe it's yet another way to hammer in the cost of war?

The lack of interaction with the elders causes a vacuum where oral traditions are not passed on, knowledge and crafts forgotten.

[Targaryen Peas]

Did you see the Isaac Wright interview when he says that D&D told him:

Spoiler

The Bran ending was something GRRM told them and it's the only thing he is sure that's true. 

 

[Lollygag]

@Ruki88

Foreshadowing is overestimated on this forum. Can't overstate this enough.

• Nothing is technically foreshadowing until it actually happens. 
• There's tons of stuff in the early books which look like foreshadowing but are clearly not as it's now impossible for those things to happen. 
• GRRM covered his tracks well. You can find evidence for Hot Pie becoming King if you look hard enough. It's all over the place for all kinds of characters and obvi it's not all true. There's no widely accepted endgame theory out there for any character.
• About nobody saw the foreshadowing for the Red Wedding until it happened and we backtracked to find it. 
• GRRM's foreshadowing is often very complicated. Another poster broke down the bulk of events for AGOT's tourney as foreshadowing for the War of the 5 Kings events. Crazy complicated. 
• GRRM often uses switcheroos for foreshadowing. Take this Tyrion/Sansa foreshadowing: Sansa is engaged to Joff --> She thinks she'd rather be engaged to Tommen --> Tyrion arrives in KL --> Sansa compared Tyrion to Tommen in height --> it's Tyrion that she ends up marrying. We get the same format for Garlan/Willas, and there's a third that I'm forgetting offhand. 

• AFFC Alayne II
  It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos.

  LF (GRRM) lost his 5 year gap. GRRM the Gardener plants seeds which readers interpret as foreshadowing, but some of those seeds will never grow.  

• Despite all of the obsessive analyzing, we will be surprised. Who saw Euron in the Forsaken coming? Who guessed at Aegon? Tyrion as a slave in Essos? Barristan taking up with Dany? Ned dying? Tywin getting killed while shitting? Jon as LC? Arya in Braavos as a FM? Bran being rigged up to a tree in a cave with Bloodraven of all people? Sansa in the Vale? LF tossing Lysa out the Moondoor? Catelyn as a revenge fire zombie? Jon getting stabbed? Whatever happened to Victarion? Were any of these really foreshadowed well if at all? Yet they happened. It's a pet peeve of mine on this forum that people absolutely insist something will never happen because it's "not foreshadowed". 

 

As so much foreshadowing doesn't reveal itself until we've backtracked after knowing the actual event (and even then there's no guarantees that we'll find it), we'll have to wait for people to do their re-reads. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Lollygag

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

Hello all, 

I have been lurking for a few weeks. I've been dying to see what others think will be the continuation of the story now that the show is done. First I'd love to hear what others think of whether Dany, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Arya and Bran's stories will come to the same conclusion or not. If not, then how do you think their story will go, and end? The more I lurk, the more I decided I'd like to stick around and see how well I (and we) can predict what will happen in TWOW and beyond.

My current thoughts on the 6:

Jon: I didn't like it at first, but minus the details, especially actually honoring a pledge to a dude that just sailed to Naath for... forever, I can see Jon's story ending with him living with the Free Folk or still in the Night's Watch. He may end up taking a dark turn if he needs a resurrection though. 

Sansa: I don't think her book story will end the same as the show. I think it more likely she rules the Vale in her own right. As Lady Sansa Stark, the Vale Lords naming her heir to Lisa/Robin. It may be that she gets the Vale to fight for her, but her being Queen of the North wouldn't continue the Stark bloodline. In the books, though...Rickon is still alive.

Bran: Bran may make less sense than Sansa. Even though the actor claims D&D said GRRM says that Bran will be King... I agree the Lords of Westeros would laugh at his tales and would laugh louder at the idea of him being King of the 6 or 7 Kingdoms. But how do he and his story get from a tree throne (uh oh...) underground north of the Wall all the way to King's Landing?

Tyrion: Tyrion is one of my favorite characters so I'd love to see him end up as Hand again. Or as Lord of Casterly Rock... but so far in the books he has yet to team up with Dany. He still needs to be named her Hand AND have her conquest be successful this time...in a manner that wouldn't make him quit. I think we got too fairytale of an ending and there won't be a King Bran to name Tyrion Hand as punishment. 

Dany: In book Dany still needs to resolve her Dothraki situation, hopefully Victarion ends up being her escape from Meereen and fast forward button to Westeros. I do think we get Mad Queen Dany in a different way. Maybe she burns King's Landing "by accident" with the wildfire caches exploding. Right now I'd guess Dany dies in battle either trying to take King's Landing or after in the fight against the Others.

Arya: Arya's story may be the most interesting to me of the 6. I actually loved that she is sailing off on an adventure to the unknown west of Westeros. I'd like to find book evidence to support this. However, the show clearly cut off her real storyline to rush her and everyone else to Westeros. We really, as far as we know, got no continuation of her book storyline at all. Yet her sailing off west of Westeros made the most sense to me of the 6. I just don't know how she gets from her training in Braavos to there. Her arc would have to include something to get her out of the Faceless Men organization or her sailing would be a Faceless Men mission.

[divica]

21 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Hello all, 

I have been lurking for a few weeks. I've been dying to see what others think will be the continuation of the story now that the show is done. First I'd love to hear what others think of whether Dany, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Arya and Bran's stories will come to the same conclusion or not. If not, then how do you think their story will go, and end? The more I lurk, the more I decided I'd like to stick around and see how well I (and we) can predict what will happen in TWOW and beyond.

My current thoughts on the 6:

Jon: I didn't like it at first, but minus the details, especially actually honoring a pledge to a dude that just sailed to Naath for... forever, I can see Jon's story ending with him living with the Free Folk or still in the Night's Watch. He may end up taking a dark turn if he needs a resurrection though. 

Sansa: I don't think her book story will end the same as the show. I think it more likely she rules the Vale in her own right. As Lady Sansa Stark, the Vale Lords naming her heir to Lisa/Robin. It may be that she gets the Vale to fight for her, but her being Queen of the North wouldn't continue the Stark bloodline. In the books, though...Rickon is still alive.

Bran: Bran may make less sense than Sansa. Even though the actor claims D&D said GRRM says that Bran will be King... I agree the Lords of Westeros would laugh at his tales and would laugh louder at the idea of him being King of the 6 or 7 Kingdoms. But how do he and his story get from a tree throne (uh oh...) underground north of the Wall all the way to King's Landing?

Tyrion: Tyrion is one of my favorite characters so I'd love to see him end up as Hand again. Or as Lord of Casterly Rock... but so far in the books he has yet to team up with Dany. He still needs to be named her Hand AND have her conquest be successful this time...in a manner that wouldn't make him quit. I think we got too fairytale of an ending and there won't be a King Bran to name Tyrion Hand as punishment. 

Dany: In book Dany still needs to resolve her Dothraki situation, hopefully Victarion ends up being her escape from Meereen and fast forward button to Westeros. I do think we get Mad Queen Dany in a different way. Maybe she burns King's Landing "by accident" with the wildfire caches exploding. Right now I'd guess Dany dies in battle either trying to take King's Landing or after in the fight against the Others.

Arya: Arya's story may be the most interesting to me of the 6. I actually loved that she is sailing off on an adventure to the unknown west of Westeros. I'd like to find book evidence to support this. However, the show clearly cut off her real storyline to rush her and everyone else to Westeros. We really, as far as we know, got no continuation of her book storyline at all. Yet her sailing off west of Westeros made the most sense to me of the 6. I just don't know how she gets from her training in Braavos to there. Her arc would have to include something to get her out of the Faceless Men organization or her sailing would be a Faceless Men mission.

Come on. Arya isn t a sailor. She could decide to ride to some unknown places, but sailing? To a place nobody has ever returned from? it doesn t make sense!

And if danny goes mad/evil queen and tyrion is her hand how can he still have political power/value to be hand of another king? We are talking about a dude that is acused of killing his father and nephew and condemned to death for it. That is suposed to be a big deal in westeros… And this doesn t inclube the fact that he is generally hated by everybody for being a dwarf. Can you see the westerlands accepting him as lord? The lords of westeros acepting him as hand?

I agree with sansa and can t really coment on bran because it makes no sense to me... He should become a greenseer and act as a leading figure for the children of the forest and religious leader for those that follow the old gods.

I don t see (like) jon ending up in the NW again because it doesn t make sense for his character to return to a place he outgrew and that proved to be useless… Unless the NW becomes something completly diferent… I could see him leading the wildlings, but it would be with them settled in the gift and to garantee peace between them and the north. But I see him leading a new kind of north full of savages and war veterans that want to survive the coming winter. 

[Aldarion]

Just posted this:

At any rate, combining all the evidence, it seems that Randyll Tarly may well join Aegon in his conquest. And if he is still burned in the books like he was in the show, then it may happen after Daenerys defeats Aegon; Randyll will have fought for usurper, in her eyes, and she will have him burned alive.

[alienarea]

The books and show built their fame on being cynical, gross and subverting tropes. Ultimately, subverting too many tropes, sacrificed a coherent storyline.

Ultimately, it was maybe GRRMs plan to get rich and famous without finishing. Book 4 and 5 are basically stalling and planting seeds for more speculation. Which is clever from a marketing point of view, but if this is his endgame he got caught with his trousers down.

Edited June 2, 2019 by alienarea
typo

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 5/28/2019 at 7:06 AM, Lord Varys said:

She confirms he only ever said 'Hodor'. This is all we need to know to dismiss the show take on that as nonsense.

One assumes he started to talk around the same time the average child starts to talk, don't you think? If her dear descendant had ever had acted normally, she would have mentioned that. And not only she would have mentioned that, but Ned and other Winterfell characters, too. Because Hodor is not that old.

The books establish that Old Nan doesn't have the best memory. I'd say it's far from canon that Hodor has said "Hodor" since birth. 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 5/28/2019 at 7:06 AM, Lord Varys said:

She confirms he only ever said 'Hodor'. This is all we need to know to dismiss the show take on that as nonsense.

One assumes he started to talk around the same time the average child starts to talk, don't you think? If her dear descendant had ever had acted normally, she would have mentioned that. And not only she would have mentioned that, but Ned and other Winterfell characters, too. Because Hodor is not that old.

Hodor is possibly 60 or so in the books. We don't how old Old Nan is, except she is very old, likely at least old enough for Hodor to be 60. Ned is 35 when AGOT starts. You are acting like it's a given that Ned and Hodor are basically the same age and that Hodor would have grown up with Brandon and Benjen and Lyanna. When he could be old enough to have played with Rickard as kids.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 5/29/2019 at 9:07 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

Yup, that's the one. Finally the silly "He's a tree! Never leaving his cave!" sceptics will finally give it a rest, just like the R+L=J deniers ultimately were proven wrong when Martin confirmed that D&D got it right.

Long live King Bran the Broken. Long may he reign, calmly and coolly curing the realm of its burning wounds.

When did Martin confirm RLJ is in the books?

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 5/30/2019 at 5:10 AM, Lady Anna said:

Yeah. As I said before the pacing of this whole series is off. How are all those things supposed to happen in just 2 books when the Lannister-Stark/War of the 5 Kings conflict lasted 3 books, and when 5 books in we're still kinda in the middle of the story?

I'm starting to fear that George is going to give us the book equivalent of the shows lightning quick season 8 "here's the bullet points but trust me it was a good story". There's far too much to wrap up in 2 books. He probably needs 4 realistically, but 3 for a certainty. 

[Nowy Tends]

25 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Hodor is possibly 60 or so in the books. 

What? Where does this figure come from? Source please…

[DMC]

10 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

So now, they would tell, Bran is end king at KL, is from GRRM? One of the 2 (or both) is a lie. But did you see it in D&D own words? Or could it be some interpretation by IHW of something ambiguous D&D told him?

 

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Now, whereas Martin told David and Dan exactly what they said he did when they had their chat w/ IHS... of that I’m significantly less sure.

It's certainly a possibility that D&D lied to IHS, but even though I think they suck for the way they ended it (and really the last 4 seasons), I have no reason to believe they would lie to one of their actors about something like that.  D&D promised not to publicly state what the differences are, but it's unrealistic to think they didn't discuss what came from Martin and didn't with their actors.  They're not responsible if one of those actors then goes public with that information, especially because he was probably told not to.

As for IHW "misinterpreting" something from D&D - or D&D misinterpreting Martin - I don't find these to really be possible.  Bran being king and whether it came from Martin or not are pretty damn hard things to misinterpret.  Either somebody is lying, or it's true.  And I can't think of any reason not to give D&D or IHW the benefit of the doubt.  I might have less than zero confidence in D&D's ability to make their Star Wars project anything watchable based on their performance, but I'm not aware of any hard evidence that they're liars.

[CrypticWeirwood]

41 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

When did Martin confirm RLJ is in the books?

When he told us that the showrunners answered his question about who Jon's mother was  correctly. That completely removed all possible doubt, confirming it once and for all. Think of the billions and billions of hours saved. 

[divica]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

The books and show built their fame on being cynical, gross and subverting tropes. Ultimately, subverting too many tropes, sacrificed a coherent storyline.

Ultimately, it was maybe GRRMs plan to get rich and famous without finishing. Book 4 and 5 are basically stalling and planting seeds for more speculation. Which is clever from a marketing point of view, but if this is his endgame he got caught with his trousers down.

but the problem is that it isn t really true for the 5 or so main characters. Usually those things happen to side characters like robb, oberyn, ned, joffrey...

When you look at jon, danny, tyrion, arya and bran/sansa they are very traditional...

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

47 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

What? Where does this figure come from? Source please…

How old is Old Nan? Certainly possibly over 100 right? It isn't anywhere in canon that Hodor is of an age with Ned. 

Do we have a book canon age for Hodor? No. All we can do is guess. But that doesn't automatically make Hodor 35-ish.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

26 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

When he told us that the showrunners answered his question about who Jon's mother was  correctly. That completely removed all possible doubt, confirming it once and for all. Think of the billions and billions of hours saved. 

That is clearly NOT a confirmation that RLJ is book canon.

 

Also, you're incorrect. George asked them who Jon's mother was. They gave an answer. He smiles, never saying whether or not they are right.

He asked us, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/the-game-of-thrones-writers-had-to-answer-this-trick-question-2015-4

How does this equal RLJ is confirmed book canon?