Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

It's certainly a possibility that D&D lied to IHS, but even though I think they suck for the way they ended it (and really the last 4 seasons), I have no reason to believe they would lie to one of their actors about something like that.  D&D promised not to publicly state what the differences are, but it's unrealistic to think they didn't discuss what came from Martin and didn't with their actors.  They're not responsible if one of those actors then goes public with that information, especially because he was probably told not to.

I don’t think they lied, exactly. Although it is still a total dick move to spill the beans after they’d said they wouldn’t. But going by their track record, I think it’s quite possible they said something along the lines of, “Yes, Isaac, when George told us this we thought it was awesome”. And of course, they never clarified what exactly “this” was, leaving IHS to assume it was Bran as king of the 6K because that was the topic at hand. Like a “clever” obfuscation of the topic more than anything, similar to what they said after episode 509 irt Shireen’s immolation. 

I mean, 6 Kingdoms? Does anyone here see that happening? It will either be the 7 Kingdoms w/ different rulers/a ruler, or it will be several independent “kingdoms”. IMO. 

[DMC]

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I mean, 6 Kingdoms? Does anyone here see that happening?

No, agree there.  If the North is granted independence, I expect the II, Dorne, and maybe even the Vale will demand independence as well.  But I think that was just a way for them to make up for the travesty they did to Sansa, expect she'll end up Lady of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North.

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

That is clearly NOT a confirmation that RLJ is book canon.

 

Also, you're incorrect. George asked them who Jon's mother was. They gave an answer. He smiles, never saying whether or not they are right.

He asked us, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/the-game-of-thrones-writers-had-to-answer-this-trick-question-2015-4

How does this equal RLJ is confirmed book canon?

“The kool aid is strong in this one.” Please don't make us all laugh. George had them do it in the series, and they got the  series because they got it right. It's a big deal. It real. It's what he said to do. It will be in the books. You have to read up as down and black as white and right as wrong to think anything other than this. It's willful disbelief of reality.

This was a super-critical plot point. The entire endgame hangs on it. That's how you know it's what Martin set up: because that's how it played out on screen. Without it, everything would have fallen apart into meaninglessness. Martin said that the main characters all end up in the same place, just not a few secondary ones. Call them what you will but Jon and Dany are main characters. The show isn't going to to just randomly change the main characters' endgame and break all the layers of meaning that Martin has spent thousands of pages across decades carefully building up like that. If they would it would not have been Martin's story. So they didn't. It's too important; otherwise nothing else makes sense and the showMartin said is 97% accurate is random garbage.  He wouldn't say what he said if it were. So it's not.

That's how we know that up is up and black is black and down is down and white is white.

And that's how we know R+L=J. The show's ending guarantees it.

Edited June 2, 2019 by CrypticWeirwood

[Nowy Tends]

2 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

That is clearly NOT a confirmation that RLJ is book canon.

How does this equal RLJ is confirmed book canon?

At this point, to affirm that R+L=J is not the canon of the book is a pure intellectual pose.
Unless, of course, GRRM is half crazy and has been indulging in lies for several years.

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, agree there.  If the North is granted independence, I expect the II, Dorne, and maybe even the Vale will demand independence as well.  But I think that was just a way for them to make up for the travesty they did to Sansa, expect she'll end up Lady of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North.

Yeah, agreed. But it’s only made it even worse. For me anyway.

Let’s see... they amputate the story from a main character and transplant it into a minor character’s story, and by doing this they completely destroy 3 characters at least: Sansa, Theon, and Jeyne Poole. The truth is, there are ramifications here that have an impact on other characters as well, but I’ll leave those out here. Back on track, they butcher 3 characters, and “make up for it” by giving treats to the rape/torture victim. Hmmmm. Don’t like it. And it gets even worse... The way the Sansa Poole plot plays out, getting into that situation was something our rape/torture victim chose for herself. Remember? While on their way from the Vale to Winterfell, Littlefinger told her, “if you want, we'll go back to the Vale” (paraphrasing). And Sansa decided she wanted to go ahead w/ the plan to marry Ramsay Bolton, aka the Sansa Marriage Strike, as @OldGimletEye put it brilliantly.

So, Sansa was given a treat because she willingly made herself a victim.

[divica]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, agreed. But it’s only made it even worse. For me anyway.

Let’s see... they amputate the story from a main character and transplant it into a minor character’s story, and by doing this they completely destroy 3 characters at least: Sansa, Theon, and Jeyne Poole. The truth is, there are ramifications here that have an impact on other characters as well, but I’ll leave those out here. Back on track, they butcher 3 characters, and “make up for it” by giving treats to the rape/torture victim. Hmmmm. Don’t like it. And it gets even worse... The way the Sansa Poole plot plays out, getting into that situation was something our rape/torture victim chose for herself. Remember? While on their way from the Vale to Winterfell, Littlefinger told her, “if you want, we'll go back to the Vale” (paraphrasing). And Sansa decided she wanted to go ahead w/ the plan to marry Ramsay Bolton, aka the Sansa Marriage Strike, as @OldGimletEye put it brilliantly.

So, Sansa was given a treat because she willingly made herself a victim.

It also ended up ruining the lords of the vale and LF. They basically became sansa's underlings for reasons… They completly lost their identity and motives for doing things...

Then in s6 the army of the vale had to be able to ride through moat calin for reasons… It is impossible to have that army going north without the boltons knowing about it…

And in s7 and s8 sansa became an annoing character that didn t have a story. She was just there and was the smartest person ever always going agains her siblings...

The only smart thing in entire scenario was having LF go to KL and convence cersei to let him lead the vale army into the north to attack winterfell and capture sansa. That made sense! Even though I have no idea how he would convince the lords of the vale to rebel against the lannisters and fight a war for sansa without the vale gaining anything when he was the one that gave sansa to the boltons...

[teej6]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, Sansa was given a treat because she willingly made herself a victim.

The morons even had her say that she would have stayed a little bird all her life had LF and Ramsay not been in her life. I guess the repeated rapes and torture at the hands of Ramsay was just what Sansa needed to grow up. Ugh!

Book!Sansa is not one of my favorite characters but I do not dislike the character and I do enjoy reading her chapters. Sansa, in the books, still has a long way to go before she can convincingly take on LF. When Martin shows Sansa come into her own and take down LF (I’m pretty certain she’ll be the one to do it), I’m sure we’ll clearly see and appreciate the transition in Sansa. It won’t be anything like the travesty the dimwits showed in S7.  Oh yes, LF is another character D&D ruined to make their Sansa arc work. I would also add Jon to this list, but then again, D&D ruined Jon’s character long before Sansa and Jon were merged into the same storyline.

Show!Sansa from S5-S8 was terrible and hard to watch. First, with her rape and victimization (like Joffrey wasn’t enough to drive sense into her), then, by turning the victim into an arrogant, self-serving, whiny, inconsistent character — D&D’s version of a strong woman I guess. Apart from filling the granaries, scheming, and sewing, what does the QitN know about ruling I wonder. And oh yes, she also believes in taking away lands from kids and making them homeless due to the sins of their fathers. Yeah, one helluva queen she’ll make. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by teej6

[Shmedricko]

A few Reddit posts which I think are pretty insightful:

1) How Bran's chapter sets up a far more compelling conclusion than the show gave us, by /u/feldman10 - Explaining how Bran sentencing Jon to the Night's Watch for murdering Daenerys could be a lot more satisfying in the books, by relating it to Bran's very first chapter in the series. Excerpt:

Quote

Jon — himself a Night's Watch deserter — is brought forward, filling the role of the Night's Watch deserter Ned executes. Bran, now king, is unsure what to do. His beloved brother/cousin is a queenslayer, because he killed Dany, for the good of the realm. Several factions in Westeros are demanding Jon's head.

Bran is unsure what to do. It's his first major decision as king. He thinks of how Jon intervened to save the innocent direwolf pups so long ago. He selflessly omitted himself, to save innocent creatures. Now, he has sacrificed his own honor and killed the woman he loved, to save innocents across the world.

Bran thinks of his father's words: "If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die."

So, Bran concludes, Jon does not deserve to die. Instead, he will be sent to the Night's Watch. [...]

Bonus: Jon's fate resembles what Aegon V did to Bloodraven

From TWOIAF. Bloodraven killed a Blackfyre pretender to help Aegon V get the throne. King Aegon then sentenced him — to the Wall.

Quote

The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm.

Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night's Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC.

2) A certain character's final decision will be much darker in the books, by /u/YezenIRL - Theorizing that Jon will kill Dany primarily to protect his family, fulfilling the treason for love; and that, unbeknownst to Jon, Dany will be pregnant with his child when he does this. Excerpt:

Quote

When it comes to tragedy, GRRM tends to go the whole 9 yards. Shakespeare level shit. Tyrion being made to participate in the gang rape of Tysha. Stannis burning his daughter alive. Bran retroactively crippling Hodor's mind through repeated mental violation. These moments are meant to be gut wrenching. Almost as a rule, we don't get satisfying, heroic kills.

So, here is the twist. Jon will betray Daenerys while she (unbeknownst to him) is pregnant with his child.

Yes, I realize I am careening into misery porn territory here, but there actually is a setup for this. Although Daenerys believes herself unable to have children, this isn't necessarily true, and we have significant reason to believe that Daenerys in fact went through a miscarriage on the Dothraki Sea. You can find evidence for this outlined here.

If true, this would mean that Daenerys can indeed have children.

And upon inspection of season 7, it almost seems as though the show was going to have Daenerys get pregnant in season 8, and then scrapped the storyline. Twice in S7Ep6 Daenerys' inability to have children is brought up. By Tyrion when discussing the issue of succession, then by herself when discussing the loss of her dragon. She brings this up to Jon again in S7E7, at which point Jon calls into question whether Mirri might have been an unreliable source of information. Later in that very episode, Jon and Dany have sex for the first time. Now of course, that could all just be there to clarify Dany's inability to produce an heir right?

Well, during the wight hunt, Jon tries to give Jorah back Longclaw, and he refuses. Telling him this:

Quote

Jorah: I've forfeited the right to claim [Longclaw]. It's yours. May it serve you well. . . and your children after you.

So not only were we getting foreshadowing about Daenerys possibly having children there at the end, but we were also getting foreshadowing that Jon would have children. Red herring? maybe. Or maybe Daenerys was originally going to be pregnant when Jon killed her, but the writers decided it was unnecessarily bleak and controversial, so instead they wrote it out. [...]

Though what Jon does seems to be the right thing in light of Dany's tyranny, Daenerys being pregnant when Jon chooses his family over her would reassert the reality that Daenerys is also Jon's family. And by betraying her, even if for a good reason, is kinslaying in every sense of the word.

tldr 2; When Jon kills Daenerys, she will be (unbeknownst to him) pregnant with his child.

3) The Curse of Harrenhal: How the location of the Great Council explains the ending in the books, by /u/YezenIRL - Theorizing that the Great Council in the books will be held on the Isle of Faces, and that Bran will take Harrenhal as his seat (which Bran actually has a claim to through Catelyn's mother Minisa Whent). Excerpt:

Quote

Quote

"Robb will set aside his crown if you and your brother will do the same," she said, hoping it was true. She would make it true if she must; Robb would listen to her, even if his lords would not. "Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them." ~ Catelyn IV, ACOK

For those who have been wondering how the books would ever get to a scenario where a Great Council is even considering making a crippled boy the king, I have three words for you. Location. Location. Location.

While the show puts the Great Council at the Dragonpit and has Bran as the abdicated little brother of the Lady of Winterfell, the odds will likely be shifted dramatically in Bran's favor in the books. Because if the Great Council is happening just beneath Harrenhal, then Bran holds a claim to the very land on which the council is taking place. And that's not even mentioning the massive Old Gods connection giving Bran the home field advantage.

Sure (assuming he survives) Edmure Tully comes before Bran i the line of succesion, but alas Edmure will probably be passed over in the books just as he was on the show. Poor Edmure never gets a break.

And that really shouldn't come as a big surprise. While Edmure is the Lord of Riverrun, Brandon Stark is the heir to The North and the Riverlands. Which is about half the land in Westeros.

And yes, just as happened in the show, it will likely be Tyrion who gives the speech which gets the Lords of Westeros to put aside their reservations about crowning a crippled boy. This is set up pretty early in the story by Tyrion's soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things.

Quote

"Even if the boy does live, he will be a cripple. Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death."

Tyrion replied with a shrug that accentuated the twist of his shoulders. "Speaking for the grotesques," he said, "I beg to differ. Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."

[...]

"Oh, yes," Tyrion admitted. "I hope the boy does wake. I would be most interested to hear what he might have to say."

And yes, the power of stories will probably in some way be a part of Tyron's speech in the books too. D&D failed to set it up, but people have to realize that whenever something feels totally out of left field on the show, it's either because it's complete crowd pleasing fanservice, or because it's from the books and they failed to set it up (for example, that one time they called Jon "The White Wolf" or Bran being called "Bran the Broken.") Tyrion's speech was clearly not fanservice. It's more likely to be conceptually from the books.

Beyond that, this serves as a callback to the Shakespeare line that likely inspired the ending for GRRM.

Quote

"Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by this sun of York." ~ Richard III

This is the famous opening line in Shakespeare's play about Richard III, and the War of the Roses. In this soliloquy, the titular Richard III is proclaiming that the time of hardship is over, and good times are ahead, now that King Edward IV has re-ascended to the throne. Of course, what follows this are revealed to be not so good times, but I digress. We don't know what the future holds for Westeros, and we can assume that peace will not last forever.

GRRM has blatantly acknowledged that Tyrion is in many ways inspired by Richard III. The winter of our discontent seems referenced by the winter of the Long Night, but also the general period of war the story encompasses. "Summer" is the name of Bran's direwolf, and the Yorks are the Starks so King Brandon Stark is the sun/son of York. Thus Martin will likely end his story much like Shakespeare began his. By hailing to the son of Stark.

The rise of the Fischer King Brandon Stark to the throne will also likely represent the breaking of the curse of Harrenhal. Not only because making a greenseer the king makes up for the Weirwoods destroyed in Harrenhal's construction, but also because the establishment of an elective monarchy makes it so that no one House will ever rule over Harrenhal. Instead the Hall of Kings will pass from one ruler to the next, each chosen at the Isle of Faces, in the sight of Gods and Men.

tldr; Bran the Broken will be chosen as King at the Isle of Faces, and he will rule from Harrenhal, thereby breaking the curse and establishing a new seat of power.

Bonus Point!

As a bonus, I wanna throw out that this is already being set up in the books by King Robb's crown, ownership of which the books have been tracking since the Red Wedding. The crown is currently in the position of Lady Stoneheart, who went out of her way to get it back. Robb's crown will likely eventually make it's way to Bran, and will eventually be placed on his head by Sansa or Arya at his coronation.

Quote

"Beyond the castle walls, a roar of sound went up. The foot soldiers and townsfolk were cheering Robb as he rode past, Bran knew; cheering for Lord Stark, for the Lord of Winterfell on his great stallion, with his cloak streaming and Grey Wind racing beside him. They would never cheer for him that way, he realized with a dull ache. He might be the lord in Winterfell while his brother and father were gone, but he was still Bran the Broken. He could not even get off his own horse, except to fall." ~ Bran VI, AGOT

[CrypticWeirwood]

12 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

A few Reddit posts which I think are pretty insightful:

1) How Bran's chapter sets up a far more compelling conclusion than the show gave us, by /u/feldman10 - Explaining how Bran sentencing Jon to the Night's Watch for murdering Daenerys could be a lot more satisfying in the books, by relating it to Bran's very first chapter in the series. Excerpt:

2) A certain character's final decision will be much darker in the books, by /u/YezenIRL - Theorizing that Jon will kill Dany primarily to protect his family, fulfilling the treason for love; and that, unbeknownst to Jon, Dany will be pregnant with his child when he does this. Excerpt:

3) The Curse of Harrenhal: How the location of the Great Council explains the ending in the books, by /u/YezenIRL - Theorizing that the Great Council in the books will be held on the Isle of Faces, and that Bran will take Harrenhal as his seat (which Bran actually has a claim to through Catelyn's mother Minisa Whent). Excerpt:

Just wanted to say how stunningly excellent that all was! Thank you.

[divica]

34 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Just wanted to say how stunningly excellent that all was! Thank you.

No it wasn t. Most of it ignores logic and makes bad situations even worse.

Jon not only kills danny, but she is pregnant with his child and he does it in order to save his familly. And then his familly exiles him to the NW...

Then if jon kills danny not only does he become the rightful king but she would be an enemy of a lot of people in westeros. What happened to robert after he killed rhaegal, tywin after he sacked KL, Jaime after he killed aerys, the mountain after he killed rhaegar's familly, stannis after he killed renly and a lot of other people that killed kings or did dishonorable acts? In this theory jon would need to act in a similar way to the red wedding to deserve such a punishment…

Then if location decided who the king is they were lucky to not go to hot pie's tavern… Besides the fact that the place doesn t belong to bran, that most of westeros follows another religion, that tyrion is a hated condemned kinslayer, that bran can t have kids and that a monharchy without heirs doesn t really work (as discussed some pages ago)...

[CrypticWeirwood]

32 minutes ago, divica said:

Then if location decided who the king is they were lucky to not go to hot pie's tavern… Besides the fact that the place doesn t belong to bran, that most of westeros follows another religion, that tyrion is a hated condemned kinslayer, that bran can t have kids and that a monharchy without heirs doesn t really work (as discussed some pages ago)...

Bran doesn't follow "a different religion". He doesn't follow a religion at all.  Just because he knows that men call all the children whose spirits live on in the trees "the old gods" doesn't make them gods and it doesn't make understanding them a religion. Bran is a greenseer himself, so he knows that this isn't a religion. He isn't a god and he knows it, and he wouldn't put up with people worshipping him. That's Dany, not Bran. He's already part of that network. It's just the underlying mechanics of how this universe works. No religion needed.

But the Seven?  Haha, that's a belly laugh.  Just stuff to keep the masses in check.  There's no there there.

With the weirwoods, though, it's all real. Not religion.

Edited June 3, 2019 by CrypticWeirwood

[The Map Guy]

I hope you guys aren't falling for GRRM's tricks.

GRRM never confirmed with D&D that R+L=J ... he only confirmed J=R+L ... big difference. It was a trick question for D&D and they fell for it.

And I am sure that GRRM kept tricking D&D, considering how simple they are.

 

I'm sure GRRM told D&D this ... D&D interpreted it like this ... but it can also mean this

• The North is no longer part of the realm, it is the Six Kingdoms now ... The North declared independence! ... the North was wiped out by the Others
• Even after the Others were defeated, a dragon attacks the innocent citizens of Kings Landing ... Dany gone Mad Queen, and starts killing citizens! ... it could be someone else's dragon
• After the destruction of Kings Landing is over, Dany dies in a conflict in the Throne room, and Bran is the last one standing ... Jon kills Dany in the Thrones room for attacking innocent citizens, and Bran becomes King now! ... GRRM's real ending of the real Westerosi Republic

 

I don't know ... I find it more plausible that GRRM tricked D&D by giving them truthful plot points ... but D&D failed terribly to interpret them correctly. Look at what D&D did with R+L in the TV show ... it meant nothing. Perhaps the real R+L in the books will mean everything ... including the end of the Others.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

4 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

“The kool aid is strong in this one.” Please don't make us all laugh. George had them do it in the series, and they got the  series because they got it right. It's a big deal. It real. It's what he said to do. It will be in the books. You have to read up as down and black as white and right as wrong to think anything other than this. It's willful disbelief of reality.

This was a super-critical plot point. The entire endgame hangs on it. That's how you know it's what Martin set up: because that's how it played out on screen. Without it, everything would have fallen apart into meaninglessness. Martin said that the main characters all end up in the same place, just not a few secondary ones. Call them what you will but Jon and Dany are main characters. The show isn't going to to just randomly change the main characters' endgame and break all the layers of meaning that Martin has spent thousands of pages across decades carefully building up like that. If they would it would not have been Martin's story. So they didn't. It's too important; otherwise nothing else makes sense and the showMartin said is 97% accurate is random garbage.  He wouldn't say what he said if it were. So it's not.

That's how we know that up is up and black is black and down is down and white is white.

And that's how we know R+L=J. The show's ending guarantees it.

Literally none of what you said is true. You are living in your own fantasy head canon. 

You can't just make up how a meeting went and say that makes a theory book canon. That's not how reality works.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

4 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

At this point, to affirm that R+L=J is not the canon of the book is a pure intellectual pose.
Unless, of course, GRRM is half crazy and has been indulging in lies for several years.

You didn't answer my question.

[CrypticWeirwood]

5 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Literally none of what you said is true. You are living in your own fantasy head canon. 

You can't just make up how a meeting went and say that makes a theory book canon. That's not how reality works.

Enjoy your cool aid.  

[CrypticWeirwood]

28 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I hope you guys aren't falling for GRRM's tricks.

GRRM never confirmed with D&D that R+L=J ... he only confirmed J=R+L ... big difference. It was a trick question for D&D and they fell for it.

And I am sure that GRRM kept tricking D&D, considering how simple they are.

 

I'm sure GRRM told D&D this ... D&D interpreted it like this ... but it can also mean this

• The North is no longer part of the realm, it is the Six Kingdoms now ... The North declared independence! ... the North was wiped out by the Others
• Even after the Others were defeated, a dragon attacks the innocent citizens of Kings Landing ... Dany gone Mad Queen, and starts killing citizens! ... it could be someone else's dragon
• After the destruction of Kings Landing is over, Dany dies in a conflict in the Throne room, and Bran is the last one standing ... Jon kills Dany in the Thrones room for attacking innocent citizens, and Bran becomes King now! ... GRRM's real ending of the real Westerosi Republic

 

I don't know ... I find it more plausible that GRRM tricked D&D by giving them truthful plot points ... but D&D failed terribly to interpret them correctly. Look at what D&D did with R+L in the TV show ... it meant nothing. Perhaps the real R+L in the books will mean everything ... including the end of the Others.

What do you mean it meant nothing!!?? It meant everything! The entire endgame requires it be true. Otherwise the entire story meant nothing. It was critical that Jon not Dany was the real heir. That's why she freaked out. That's why he had to be the one to kill her. SO IT WOULD HAVE MEANING!

That's why he had to keep it secret and leave the kingdom. That's why his point about house words not being stamped on you at birth is so important. Otherwise Rhaegar's obsession with prophesy didn't wreck the kingdom and doom his family. And his Kingsguard friends. Or create Robert and Cersei. Everything is about this. Everything. 

Honestly, this is what it was all always about. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by CrypticWeirwood

[BalerionTheCat]

14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Who saw Euron in the Forsaken coming?

I expected something along the line. LF and Varys are the players of the game for the IT. They are the players and the kings and queens are their pawns. A petty game, for something which will be destroyed by the end.

BR (and Bran) are, with Euron, the players of a greater game. Or they are the pawns of the greater game, by the gods.

D&D are unpredictable. There is no logic in their telling. But not GRRM. It is just we have to sort witch telling is accurate and important. And not be blinded by what we want to happen.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

8 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

“The kool aid is strong in this one.” Please don't make us all laugh. George had them do it in the series, and they got the  series because they got it right. It's a big deal. It real. It's what he said to do. It will be in the books. You have to read up as down and black as white and right as wrong to think anything other than this. It's willful disbelief of reality.

This was a super-critical plot point. The entire endgame hangs on it. That's how you know it's what Martin set up: because that's how it played out on screen. Without it, everything would have fallen apart into meaninglessness. Martin said that the main characters all end up in the same place, just not a few secondary ones. Call them what you will but Jon and Dany are main characters. The show isn't going to to just randomly change the main characters' endgame and break all the layers of meaning that Martin has spent thousands of pages across decades carefully building up like that. If they would it would not have been Martin's story. So they didn't. It's too important; otherwise nothing else makes sense and the showMartin said is 97% accurate is random garbage.  He wouldn't say what he said if it were. So it's not.

That's how we know that up is up and black is black and down is down and white is white.

And that's how we know R+L=J. The show's ending guarantees it.

1. You made fun of me, I'm confused as to why.

2. You seem to claim George had them put RLJ in the show. Is there a quote from George that directly confirms he told them to put RLJ specifically into the show?

3. You claim that GRRM asking them who Jon's mother was and then smiling without saying yes or no confirms that they correctly guessed both Jon's mother and father. Even though father is never mentioned, the name of the mother is never confirmed and whether they were correct or not is never confirmed.

4. Your claim that RLJ will be in the books is a theory, it is not book canon. Anything else is fan fiction.

5. You then seem to for some reason claim that I'd have to be confused and willfully disbelieve reality to not believe RLJ...even though all I said was George didn't confirm RLJ in the interview. He asked who the mother was, they answered. He didn't even confirm if they were right or not.

6. You keep not actually naming what you are referencing. Do you mean to say RLJ was a super critical plot point for the show and the entire endgame hung on it? 

At no point was it ever central in 8 seasons of the show except the very end where it's only function seemed to be to trigger Dany into becoming Mad Queen Dany.

7. Are you claiming the entire show would be meaningless without RLJ?

8. Can you get me a quote on GRRM saying all the characters in the books end up in the same place as the show? 

9. You are guessing that the show won't change the endgame. That isn't book canon. That's just your guess.

10. Martin didn't say the show was 97% accurate. He said it's "extremely faithful, compared to 97%" 

George R.R. Martin: The series has-- has-- been extremely faithful, compared to 97 percent of all television and movie adaptations of literary properties. But it's not completely faithful. And-- and it can't be. Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-will-george-rr-martin-final-game-of-thrones-books-end-60-minutes-2019-04-15/

11. Somehow you use all this as proof of RLJ as book canon, yet claim that I'm drinking the Kool Aid. I really don't understand the hostility towards someone simply pointing out that GRRM didn't confirm RLJ by asking D&D who Jon's mother is and then only smiling at their answer. But here we are, with a laundry list of stuff you pretend is real to support RLJ as book canon, even though I never even claimed whether RLJ was book canon or not.

Now do you understand why my original reply was simply to say nothing you said was true? Because once you break it down, literally everything you said is either something you made up or a theory you take for granted as book canon. Yet you have the audacity to make fun of someone for pointing out simple realities (GRRM didn't confirm RLJ by asking about only the mother and then only smiling without even saying if their guess was correct). You should be ashamed of yourself.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Lord Aegon The Compromiser

[Lady Anna]

@Lord Aegon The Compromiser 

Sorry to butt in, but maybe the other user was referring to this which is from a recent blog post by GRRM:

"It is hard to believe it is over, if truth be told.   The years have gone past in the blink of an eye.  Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner?  I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was.   Fortunately, they did."

This implies that Jon's parentage in the show is the right one. Not sure if this was what @CrypticWeirwood was referring to in their first post about this.

[Corvinus85]

15 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I hope you guys aren't falling for GRRM's tricks.

GRRM never confirmed with D&D that R+L=J ... he only confirmed J=R+L ... big difference. It was a trick question for D&D and they fell for it.

You know, in math those two are the same thing. Not sure where the big difference is supposed to be. Unless you're saying that GRRM asking D&D who Jon's mother was, and them answering correctly, simply proves J=X+L, where X is still an unknown (if any of you are thinking Xaro right now ) and has never confirmed X=R.