Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

[kissdbyfire]

51 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

You know, in math those two are the same thing. Not sure where the big difference is supposed to be. Unless you're saying that GRRM asking D&D who Jon's mother was, and them answering correctly, simply proves J=X+L, where X is still an unknown (if any of you are thinking Xaro right now ) and has never confirmed X=R.

I think @The Map Guy means that Jon isn’t the only child born out of R+L. 

[teej6]

2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

You know, in math those two are the same thing. Not sure where the big difference is supposed to be. Unless you're saying that GRRM asking D&D who Jon's mother was, and them answering correctly, simply proves J=X+L, where X is still an unknown (if any of you are thinking Xaro right now ) and has never confirmed X=R.

I think the above X+L=J is what @Lord Aegon The Compromiser is arguing. He/she is arguing that GRRM’s question to D&D was not who Jon’s parents were but who Jon’s mum was? So, by stating that D&D’s answer of Lyanna was right, GRRM is only confirming the identity of Jon’s mum and not his dad. 

[Ser Hedge]

Never mind. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Ser Hedge

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

3 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

@Lord Aegon The Compromiser 

Sorry to butt in, but maybe the other user was referring to this which is from a recent blog post by GRRM:

"It is hard to believe it is over, if truth be told.   The years have gone past in the blink of an eye.  Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner?  I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was.   Fortunately, they did."

This implies that Jon's parentage in the show is the right one. Not sure if this was what @CrypticWeirwood was referring to in their first post about this.

Input is always appreciated! That I believe is the point, we all have input and in that way we develop the best theories! 

Based on this new info I was wrong in the end. They did guess it correctly. Though it wasn't confirmed until 2 weeks ago, in this post you referenced:

 

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

 

Still, in in neither case does GRRM mention the father. The father isn't confirmed either time, isn't even mentioned. I hope to be proven wrong, but without a quote about the father, neither confirms RLJ, they only confirm (unknown)+L=J. Unless there's a quote from GRRM confirming the father, it is a lie to say that he confirmed RLJ either time and therefore it would be highly erroneous to have any theories that take RLJ for granted, since we do not know the father for a certainty. I then feel it is best to entertain other possibilities. Wouldn't you be upset with yourself if you spent years thinking you were correct but you ended up being wrong? Even though now all you need to figure out is the father, but instead of continuing to theorize, you kept telling yourself it had to be Rhaegar. 

Again, this is without even making a claim on RLJ either way . It's simply a statement on theory crafting. You foundation must be as sound as possible.

[Ser Hedge]

Maybe Jon's father is the same as Anakin's.

That is really going to ruin all the fancy algebra on this thread 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

14 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Maybe Jon's father is the same as Anakin's.

That is really going to ruin all the fancy algebra on this thread 

Vade retro!

Speaketh not of the midichlorians! 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

35 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Maybe Jon's father is the same as Anakin's.

That is really going to ruin all the fancy algebra on this thread 

Good thing Mance has always been here to wreck other people's plans!

[Corvinus85]

39 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Maybe Jon's father is the same as Anakin's.

That is really going to ruin all the fancy algebra on this thread 

That is a just a failure of your imagination. If Jon's dad is the same as Anakin's then F+L=J. 

[Shmedricko]

46 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Based on this new info I was wrong in the end. They did guess it correctly. Though it wasn't confirmed until 2 weeks ago, in this post you referenced:

 

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

George said back in 2014 that D&D correctly guessed the identity of Jon's mother:

Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow’s mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.


I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they’d read the text.

Did they get it right?


They answered correctly.

Some readers, I think, would also ask who Jon Snow’s father truly is, even though Jon was always claimed to be Ned Stark’s bastard son.


[Martin smiles] On this I shall not speak. I shall maintain my enigmatic silence, until I get to it in the books.

-George R.R. Martin: The Complete Rolling Stone Interview, June 13, 2014

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

13 minutes ago, Shmedricko said:

George said back in 2014 that D&D correctly guessed the identity of Jon's mother:

Benioff and Weiss later said that during that meeting you asked them who they think Jon Snow’s mother was, which is one of the earliest — and seemingly one of the central — mysteries in A Song of Ice and Fire.


I did ask that at one point, just to see how closely they’d read the text.

Did they get it right?


They answered correctly.

Some readers, I think, would also ask who Jon Snow’s father truly is, even though Jon was always claimed to be Ned Stark’s bastard son.


[Martin smiles] On this I shall not speak. I shall maintain my enigmatic silence, until I get to it in the books.

-George R.R. Martin: The Complete Rolling Stone Interview, June 13, 2014

Thank you very much. Jon Snow's father is unconfirmed. So it's highly irresponsible to go around claiming GRRM confirmed RLJ, ever, when either smiling at an answer about the mother or confirming D&D guessed the mother correctly. All it confirms is that (unknown)+L=J is book canon. Which is a great step in the right direction! All we need to do is figure out the father!

*unless of course there is a quote out there of GRRM confirming the father*

It seems TWOW is about a year away, hopefully we get an answer!

Edited June 3, 2019 by Lord Aegon The Compromiser

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

That is a just a failure of your imagination. If Jon's dad is the same as Anakin's then F+L=J. 

I can't keep track what's "canon" and what isn't in Star Wars lore anymore (and don't really care), but I believe one could argue it'd be P+L=J.

Edited June 4, 2019 by DMC
keep TRACK

[Corvinus85]

20 minutes ago, DMC said:

I can't keep track what's "canon" and what isn't in Star Wars lore anymore (and don't really care), but I believe one could argue it'd be P+L=J.

Indeed, it could be that, too.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

My biggest reason for being in this thread, though, has been to read what others think about how Arya's and Jon's stories will continue book wise. With the show ending being possible clues.

I'm just starting a new reread, but I'm beginning to think it more likely Arya will die fighting rather than ever sailing west of Westeros. Though I loved that show ending for her. It would be a great spin off to watch and if she does survive ASOIAF, I hope to read of her adventures in a sequel series. I think D&D abandoned her real storyline to get her to Westeros with everyone else. It's then difficult to guess what is book canon and what isn't. 

Jon I think is far more complex. We don't even know if he actually dies in book. Though it's likely, sure. But what happens if we rejoin him in book? I'm not sure how much the show helped us, with all the missing book characters, much of post resurrection Show Jon could be (and seems likely to me) borrowed from what other characters (such as Aegon) will do in book. I mean stuff like the Battle of the Bastards is obviously going to be different in book (Stannis is still alive and is in what we could call Show Jon's place). Those that ignore all the obvious, known differences between Book and Show and believe that every character's story arc played out/ended the same way as it will in book are going to be sorely disappointed . You are going to regret letting yourself believe inaccurate things like 1. GRRM supposedly saying the show is 97% accurate to how the books would play out 2. GRRM supposedly confirming RLJ when he didn't even mention the father (seriously, that's a HUGE leap) instead of continuing to craft your theories while waiting on the books. 

 

So...what does happen? No idea currently. Other than I do like the idea of him ending up with the Wildlings north of the Wall. He's never wanted to be King. I don't feel he will ever want to be King of Westeros. Plus in book, whether RLJ is correct or not (yes, it is in question) how is he going to find out? What will convince him? Who will believe him when he looks nothing like Rhaegar? 

We aren't even 100% sure Dany will end up in Westeros. Let alone Jon teaming up with (and falling in love with) her. I would love to read what from book canon makes Jon and Dany's story seem likely to play out the way it does on the show. 

Rickon is still alive in book (AFAWK) to be Lord of Winterfell or King In The North. With someone as Regent since he be like 9 I suppose. I feel like GRRM will deviat from the show enough to actually allow House Stark to continue (was this a show oversight or a GRRM-esque bittersweet ending?)

 

What does Jon do if he doesn't want to be King or Lord? The answer probably isn't "be King or Lord". Good thing I'm doing a reread because I'd like better answers as to what he will do during the rest of ASOIAF and what he might like to do post ASOIAF, if he survives of course. 

[Corvinus85]

35 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

So...what does happen? No idea currently. Other than I do like the idea of him ending up with the Wildlings north of the Wall. He's never wanted to be King. I don't feel he will ever want to be King of Westeros. Plus in book, whether RLJ is correct or not (yes, it is in question) how is he going to find out? What will convince him? Who will believe him when he looks nothing like Rhaegar? 

We aren't even 100% sure Dany will end up in Westeros. Let alone Jon teaming up with (and falling in love with) her. I would love to read what from book canon makes Jon and Dany's story seem likely to play out the way it does on the show. 

Rickon is still alive in book (AFAWK) to be Lord of Winterfell or King In The North. With someone as Regent since he be like 9 I suppose. I feel like GRRM will deviat from the show enough to actually allow House Stark to continue (was this a show oversight or a GRRM-esque bittersweet ending?)

 

What does Jon do if he doesn't want to be King or Lord? The answer probably isn't "be King or Lord". Good thing I'm doing a reread because I'd like better answers as to what he will do during the rest of ASOIAF and what he might like to do post ASOIAF, if he survives of course. 

Jon was tempted to become Lord of Winterfell, but his honor to the Night's Watch kept him from accepting Stannis's offer. But that may change given what's happened. Being king never crossed his mind, considering who he was and and where he was, but that's not saying he won't accept it, should his parentage be proven true and the circumstances be right. And his living with the wildlings in the North depends, of course, on the conflict resolution with the Others, besides the rest.

[thehandwipes]

33 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I'm just starting a new reread, but I'm beginning to think it more likely Arya will die fighting rather than ever sailing west of Westeros. Though I loved that show ending for her. It would be a great spin off to watch and if she does survive ASOIAF, I hope to read of her adventures in a sequel series. I think D&D abandoned her real storyline to get her to Westeros with everyone else. It's then difficult to guess what is book canon and what isn't.  

Its hard to nail down where Arya's story goes after Braavos.  Returning to the RL storyline seems the most likely since its where she spent most of the first three books and its where Nymeria is.  She is also intimately linked to Harrenhall and the God's Eye.  As well as the RW, and I expect a big showdown at the Twins in ADOS. Arya should certainly be there.

33 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Jon I think is far more complex. We don't even know if he actually dies in book. Though it's likely, sure. But what happens if we rejoin him in book? I'm not sure how much the show helped us, with all the missing book characters, much of post resurrection Show Jon could be (and seems likely to me) borrowed from what other characters (such as Aegon) will do in book. I mean stuff like the Battle of the Bastards is obviously going to be different in book (Stannis is still alive and is in what we could call Show Jon's place). Those that ignore all the obvious, known differences between Book and Show and believe that every character's story arc played out/ended the same way as it will in book are going to be sorely disappointed . You are going to regret letting yourself believe inaccurate things like 1. GRRM supposedly saying the show is 97% accurate to how the books would play out 2. GRRM supposedly confirming RLJ when he didn't even mention the father (seriously, that's a HUGE leap) instead of continuing to craft your theories while waiting on the books.  

I'm of the opinion that they gave Jon's story (barebones) to the show only character of the Night's King which is why they couldn't give the characyer any motive, because they can't write and are hacks.  They created a show only character but couldn't give him any show only characteristics.

Jon goes north of the Wall post resurrection.  Once he sees Jeyne he will assume Arya is dead and has been betrayed by his NW brothers.  He goes north, looking for Bran, looking for Benjen, lured by bran, Ghost, Summer, something.  

At this point Jon story will continue the parellels with Dany.  We'll get some "the Others know who you are, do you?"  I don't think the Others are Evil, though they will certainly be destructive, and RLJ just doesn't cover all the nothing Jon doesn't know.

Jon, I think, gets his Return of the King moment by taking WF from Stannis, who by this point has gone full Denethor staring into the flames.  Jon's army (of the dead) then moves south to the Twins.  Now I don't take anything from the show as cannon, but Arya's turn away from vengeance, along with her killing the NK (Jon), along with Jon's joke in Arya's first chapter, could all combine for quite the bittersweet ending.  But its more likely they were just trying to retcon Mel and Arya from season 3 as well as give something of significance for her to do this season.

 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

26 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Jon was tempted to become Lord of Winterfell, but his honor to the Night's Watch kept him from accepting Stannis's offer. But that may change given what's happened. Being king never crossed his mind, considering who he was and and where he was, but that's not saying he won't accept it, should his parentage be proven true and the circumstances be right. And his living with the wildlings in the North depends, of course, on the conflict resolution with the Others, besides the rest.

I agree it's entirely possible that he could accept being King. Though I'll note that after killing Dany, show Jon could have announced himself as either King Jon or King Aegon. It's possible for him to be King in book without ever revealing his identity as Aegon Targaryen (if it is true in book).

Edit: I agree with your "living with the Wildlings" comment.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Lord Aegon The Compromiser

[Wholala17]

On 5/30/2019 at 7:16 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I'm going to disagree with a lot of ppl here and say that the only similarity is that the WW's will be defeated. Nothing else will be the same.

Doubt it. For instance Dany going berserk last minute, Jon killing Dany and King Bran are too controversial and far too risky for today's audience to be something D&D pulled out of their asses on their own. These were so poorly shoehorned in I'm pretty sure they put that in there because "George said so". 

[JBM]

If Lyanna is the mother, that basically makes it impossible for anyone but Rhaegar to be the father, given the length of Robert's Rebellion and the length of her stay at the Tower of Joy, unless you think she was getting it on with a member of the Kingsguard who was at the TOJ while Rhaegar ran out for groceries or something, which seems seriously unlikely.  I know it's more fun to speculate otherwise, but it's a little goofy imo.  

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

23 minutes ago, JBM said:

If Lyanna is the mother, that basically makes it impossible for anyone but Rhaegar to be the father, given the length of Robert's Rebellion and the length of her stay at the Tower of Joy, unless you think she was getting it on with a member of the Kingsguard who was at the TOJ while Rhaegar ran out for groceries or something, which seems seriously unlikely.  I know it's more fun to speculate otherwise, but it's a little goofy imo.  

We can certainly debate the timeline if you want. Though I imagine unless we relate it to the topic, debating RLJ probably isn't appropriate for this thread. 

Edit: Re-reading your post, I am certainly interested in you backing up your assertion that only Rhaegar can be the father, that Lyanna and Rhaegar had sex and had a baby, her length of stay in the TOJ, etc with book canon.

It's been awhile so maybe my memory is failing me, but is there any book canon outside of Ned's fever dream that places Lyanna in the TOJ?

We can PM or start a new thread, for sure though.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Lord Aegon The Compromiser

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Jon was tempted to become Lord of Winterfell, but his honor to the Night's Watch kept him from accepting Stannis's offer. But that may change given what's happened. Being king never crossed his mind, considering who he was and and where he was, but that's not saying he won't accept it, should his parentage be proven true and the circumstances be right. And his living with the wildlings in the North depends, of course, on the conflict resolution with the Others, besides the rest.

Sorry for the text bomb, but this is one area where many of us (me included at one point) misremember this because of a long time between rereads and show Jon's whitewashing.

Jon wants Winterfell so badly it drives him to a berserker rage. While breaking his vows bothers him, it's not what triggers his decision. It's that the heart tree would have to be destroyed that's the deal breaker for him. In ADWD, Jon decides to ride for Winterfell in what for him is motivated in part by vengeance and he's more bothered by ordering others to break their vows than breaking his own.

This would be a huge difference between the deeply white-washed show Jon and book Jon in TWOW. 

ASOS Jon XII

When Jon had been very young, too young to understand what it meant to be a bastard, he used to dream that one day Winterfell might be his. Later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams. Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them . . . I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there's only me. All he had to do was say the word, and he would be Jon Stark, and nevermore a Snow. All he had to do was pledge this king his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do . . .

. . . was forswear his vows again.

And this time it would not be a ruse. To claim his father's castle, he must turn against his father's gods.

…

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?"

Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. "Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?" It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. "Warrior defend me," he groaned, "now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt."

That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.

...

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

...

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

He had his answer then.

 

 

 

 

ADWD Jon XIII

"The Night's Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …" Jon paused. "… is there any man here who will come stand with me?"

The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.

Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone. Then Tormund was pounding him on the back, all gap-toothed grin from ear to ear. "Well spoken, crow. Now bring out the mead! Make them yours and get them drunk, that's how it's done. We'll make a wildling o' you yet, boy. Har!"

 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by Lollygag